The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[brightfame52]

[QUOTE="quietthinker, post: 1120027, member: 7833"]All humanity is in Jesus just as they are in Adam. All humanity in Adam are subject to death, so all humanity in Jesus are forgiven, justified and reconciled. This is the Good News.....hear it and stop segregating humanity.

The fact that most do not care for the reconciliation worked out for them means they have fallen for the devils deception brought about in various ways one of which is claiming that God's free gift is not for all but exclusive to those selected.

Those who dismiss the gift of life given them will not be forced to take it....they will die!.....and you Sir who claim to expound the Scriptures do not know these things???[/QUOTE]
Friend you need to be careful what you say.

 

[brightfame52]

.... Did you read the rest of the post? I'm assuming not.

I was being facetious.

And yes, we are all at one time or another goats. We're born in opposition to God.

All we like sheep have gone astray, turning each to his own way; and the Lord lay upon Him the iniquity of us all.

Now, this verse is either saying that the iniquity of EVERY HUMAN EVER was laid on Christ, or it is saying that the elect of God were, at one time, goats; opposed to God, utterly against him - sinners no different than anyone else.

Based on the context and Scripture interpreting itself, we know that it is not speaking of all men ever. So it must be speaking of Gods elect.

I believe in election- but I don't believe in being special. There was and is nothing in me worthy of Gods love, any more than anyone else. Election is not a grounds for claiming superiority or 'specialness'. God chose for Himself a people.

And the elect of God are not a small group; they are an innumerable multitude, many of which we may be surprised to see in the fold.

My friend, even if I disagree with someone, I still at least try and give them the common courtesy of reading their post before commenting. I was actually speaking AGAINST Christ dying for every human ever. Had you read my post you may have seen that.

What you said isnt true.

 

[brightfame52]

You seem to be confusing justification with reconciliation. These are two different things.

The debate here, in this thread, seems to make a faulty assumption on which both agree but both sides are incorrect. It assumes that atonement is synonymous with justification, which is incorrect. Calvinists, for instance, argue that the atonement is limited to the elect only, otherwise the entire world would be forgiven, justified, and saved. This is obviously not true.

Those who argue against this opinion, either agree that all men are saved, or they argue that "the world" should be qualified and not understood as each and every man, woman, and child everywhere and for all time. God was not reconciling the entire world to himself was he? Indeed he was. But he was NOT justifying them.

To understand this we should remember that in order for a realized reconciliation to take place, both parties must agree to reconcile. God himself has offered the world the means by which they might be reconciled to God, i.e. the death of Jesus Christ on the cross, but each individual person must turn to God, seeking reconciliation. I picture two people standing back-to-back. One person may turn around to face the other, offering reconciliation, but the effort will remain fruitless unless the other person also turns around. In other words, God has reconciled himself to all human kind, but not all will reconcile to him.

This picture of reconciliation is found in Paul's letter to the Corinthians.

2 Corinthians 5:18-21
New American Standard Bible 1995

Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Notice that although God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, Christ must continually send out ambassadors to exhort each person individually to "be reconciled to God." Both offended parties must turn toward each other. If a person refuses to turn to God, he will not find reconciliation with God.

But Paul says, in the fourth chapter of Romans, that Jesus was "delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification." And also, "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ . . ." We have reconciliation through our Lord Jesus Christ, but we are justified in view of our faith. God is granting a universal offer of reconciliation, but he has not granted a universal justification, which can only come to those who believe and call upon his name.

There's no confusion. They are interrelated. Reconciliation involves non imputation of sin, which involves imputed righteousness, which involves Justification. One cannot be reconciled to God and not be Justified !

 

[quietthinker]

But it IS exclusive to those who care about the reconciliation, Yes? Even in your own view, Christ's atonement doesn't apply to everyone. What am I missing?

You are missing the magnanimity of God. What other God would make himself vulnerable to his creatures and forgive those who abuse him? He came so that we might see his nature; one that would prefer to be killed rather than to kill.
The fact that people reject that magnanimity is to their own hurt yet in no way a reflection on God. He gave till he could give no more....he poured out his life unto death.

 

[quietthinker]

<<<All means all....every single person who has ever existed.>>>

That would make you saying in effect that even all the dead people before Christ (according to what you say there) replaced Adam and had become the new representative of the human race, were forgiven of all their sins, were all justified, and were all reconciled to God. That is what you are in effect teaching.

And as pertains the Gospel that Paul preached, that is not the gospel that he preached.

Tong
R4246

Yes, it is what Paul preached and thats what I am saying.

It is how you see that obscures. You look at the Gospel through the limitations of self absorbed man. You confuse God's overarching love with some legal formula because you can't imagine that God is greater than our own selfish hearts.

I tell you, God's love is breathtaking....do you know that experience yet Tong? It is there for all to see if only they would open their eyes.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<All means all....every single person who has ever existed.>>>

That would make you saying in effect that even all the dead people before Christ (according to what you say there) replaced Adam and had become the new representative of the human race, were forgiven of all their sins, were all justified, and were all reconciled to God. That is what you are in effect teaching.

And as pertains the Gospel that Paul preached, that is not the gospel that he preached.

Yes, it is what Paul preached and thats what I am saying.

It is how you see that obscures. You look at the Gospel through the limitations of self absorbed man. You confuse God's overarching love with some legal formula because you can't imagine that God is greater than our own selfish hearts.

I tell you, God's love is breathtaking....do you know that experience yet Tong? It is there for all to see if only they would open their eyes.

Sticking on the issue, the gospel that Paul preached is not anything that you say and preach there, that all those who died before Christ, had their sins forgiven, were justified, and reconciled. If that was the gospel, as you contend, that Paul preached, then all of them, including those who were destroyed by God in the flood at Noah’s time, are saved, with all their sins forgiven so that there is no sin left unforgiven for which they would pay the penalty for, and having been justified and reconciled to God.

Tong
R4249

 

[quietthinker]

God's love is like seeds produced in excessive overflowing abundance. It pours down like sunshine in bucket loads.....it gives and gives and gives and then gives some more. It is inexhaustible. There is never a time when Gods love for his creatures will be less than what humans and angels have witnessed at Calvary.

The fact that we find this type of love foreign even unimaginable is due to our condition. The self accusing voices that berate us continually wants to deny that we are worth being loved

Sticking on the issue, the gospel that Paul preached is not anything that you say and preach there, that all those who died before Christ, had their sins forgiven, were justified, and reconciled. If that was the gospel, as you contend, that Paul preached, then all of them, including those who were destroyed by God in the flood at Noah’s time, are saved, with all their sins forgiven so that there is no sin left unforgiven for which they would pay the penalty for, and having been justified and reconciled to God.

Tong
R4249

You are not hearing what I am saying Tong. You draw conclusions prematurely. I understand your prematurity because I have been there.

So what's the solution? Is it understanding with limited cognition?....I doubt it.

Did you know that the wonder and the mystery of the cross will be the science and the song of the redeemed for all eternity.....things that angels who have far greater intellect desire to look into or do we suppose that our fallen self centred thinking ability can capture this unspeakable magnanimity of God in short space of time?.....this once in the life of the Universe event of God's condescension, is able to be plumbed to its depth?

I would say there are other factors. STOPING is a good place to start. Or are you more enthusiastic than Paul before he was knocked off his donkey?
His own estimation of his 'rightness'; his cognitive logic required humbling, happening in a most dramatic way.

God's long-suffering waits patiently for his people to ask the right questions because the wrong questions offer no mind blowing answers. They do however offer the never ending merry-go-round of theological divisions.

EDIT...excuse my little rave here, however I needed to get it in somewhere!

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Sticking on the issue, the gospel that Paul preached is not anything that you say and preach there, that all those who died before Christ, had their sins forgiven, were justified, and reconciled. If that was the gospel, as you contend, that Paul preached, then all of them, including those who were destroyed by God in the flood at Noah’s time, are saved, with all their sins forgiven so that there is no sin left unforgiven for which they would pay the penalty for, and having been justified and reconciled to God.

You are not hearing what I am saying Tong. You draw conclusions prematurely. I understand your prematurity because I have been there.

So what's the solution? Is it understanding with limited cognition?....I doubt it.

Did you know that the wonder and the mystery of the cross will be the science and the song of the redeemed for all eternity.....things that angels who have far greater intellect desire to look into or do we suppose that our fallen self centred thinking ability can capture this unspeakable magnanimity of God in short space of time?.....this once in the life of the Universe event of God's condescension, is able to be plumbed to its depth?

I would say there are other factors. STOPING is a good place to start. Or are you more enthusiastic than Paul before he was knocked off his donkey?
His own estimation of his 'rightness'; his cognitive logic required humbling, happening in a most dramatic way.

God's long-suffering waits patiently for his people to ask the right questions because the wrong questions offer no mind blowing answers. They do however offer the never ending merry-go-round of theological divisions.

EDIT...excuse my little rave here, however I needed to get it in somewhere!

I asked you questions to clarify what you are saying. And from what you say in your post and the answers you gave to my questions, sums up to this: that all those who died before Christ, had their sins forgiven, were justified, and reconciled. And you said that that is what Paul preached and that thay is what you are saying.

So, I argued against that, as follows:

If that was the gospel, as you contend, that Paul preached, then all of them, including those who were destroyed by God in the flood at Noah’s time, are saved, with all their sins forgiven so that there is no sin left unforgiven for which they would pay the penalty for, and having been justified and reconciled to God.

And I see nothing in your post there that refutes my argument there. So, what do you expect of me than come to a conclusion?

Tong
R4255

 

[quietthinker]

I asked you questions to clarify what you are saying. And from what you say in your post and the answers you gave to my questions, sums up to this: that all those who died before Christ, had their sins forgiven, were justified, and reconciled. And you said that that is what Paul preached and that thay is what you are saying.

So, I argued against that, as follows:

If that was the gospel, as you contend, that Paul preached, then all of them, including those who were destroyed by God in the flood at Noah’s time, are saved, with all their sins forgiven so that there is no sin left unforgiven for which they would pay the penalty for, and having been justified and reconciled to God.

And I see nothing in your post there that refutes my argument there. So, what do you expect of me than come to a conclusion?

Tong
R4255

I want you to think. Noah's great 120 year adventure of building the ark was a public affair. He probably ran tours as curious onlookers came to hear his story. Probably had a McDonalds in there for burgers and coffee? :) They had plenty of time but made light of it. Even when the animals rocked up for a spot in the space they weren't persuaded.....maybe popular opinion carried more weight than the evidence they were now witnessing.

Noah didn't shut the door on them.....they could have changed their minds right up to the when the rains came. The door was closed to keep the water out, not the people. Noah's big boat was built for them but they didn't want.

This bit of history is analogous for Salvation as are other parts of history. God has shown us he desires all men to live....he has no joy in the death of anyone....and he has time on his side. He waits patiently and does everything possible to for them to live but his message gets distorted in scores of ways.....anything to make men believe he is angry with them. Who would you think is the originator of that?

God knows we did not choose to be born with dysfunctional tendencies. Would you blame a child born with fetal alcohol syndrome or Downs syndrome....would you blame them for drooling or being uncoordinated in their movements and thinking? or would you understand their limitations? Would God be less understanding than us fallen creatures are?

Oh no, God knows each individual ever conceived by name and his heart goes out like nothing else......for goodness sakes, he gave his life so we could live.

Unless we (believers) swap our theological rationalities for a heart that goes out to people ....to the very least of these; how can we ever understand the love of God? It becomes just another intellectual trip which we swaddle our pride in.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I asked you questions to clarify what you are saying. And from what you say in your post and the answers you gave to my questions, sums up to this: that all those who died before Christ, had their sins forgiven, were justified, and reconciled. And you said that that is what Paul preached and that thay is what you are saying.

So, I argued against that, as follows:

If that was the gospel, as you contend, that Paul preached, then all of them, including those who were destroyed by God in the flood at Noah’s time, are saved, with all their sins forgiven so that there is no sin left unforgiven for which they would pay the penalty for, and having been justified and reconciled to God.

And I see nothing in your post there that refutes my argument there. So, what do you expect of me than come to a conclusion?

I want you to think. Noah's great 120 year adventure of building the ark was a public affair. He probably ran tours as curious onlookers came to hear his story. Probably had a McDonalds in there for burgers and coffee? :) They had plenty of time but made light of it. Even when the animals rocked up for a spot in the space they weren't persuaded.....maybe popular opinion carried more weight than the evidence they were now witnessing.

Noah didn't shut the door on them.....they could have changed their minds right up to the when the rains came. The door was closed to keep the water out, not the people. Noah's big boat was built for them but they didn't want.

This bit of history is analogous for Salvation as are other parts of history. God has shown us he desires all men to live....he has no joy in the death of anyone....and he has time on his side. He waits patiently and does everything possible to for them to live but his message gets distorted in scores of ways.....anything to make men believe he is angry with them. Who would you think is the originator of that?

God knows we did not choose to be born with dysfunctional tendencies. Would you blame a child born with fetal alcohol syndrome or Downs syndrome....would you blame them for drooling or being uncoordinated in their movements and thinking? or would you understand their limitations? Would God be less understanding than us fallen creatures are?

Oh no, God knows each individual ever conceived by name and his heart goes out like nothing else......for goodness sakes, he gave his life so we could live.

Unless we (believers) swap our theological rationalities for a heart that goes out to people ....to the very least of these; how can we ever understand the love of God? It becomes just another intellectual trip which we swaddle our pride in.

What you say there is totally another thing.

I asked you questions to clarify what you are saying. And from what you say in your post and the answers you gave to my questions, sums up to this: that all those who died before Christ, had their sins forgiven, were justified, and reconciled. And you said that that is what Paul preached and that thay is what you are saying.

My argument is against what you teach in your post #2067, and I quote “All humanity in Adam are subject to death, so all humanity in Jesus are forgiven, justified and reconciled.”

My argument is that if that was the gospel, as you contend, that Paul preached, then all those who lived before Christ, which includes those who were destroyed by God in the flood at Noah’s time, are saved, with all their sins forgiven so that there is no sin left unforgiven for which they would pay the penalty for, and having been justified and reconciled to God.

Up to this writing, I see nothing in your post there that refutes my argument there. So, if you have any refutation to give, please go ahead. If none, then that’s it and we can move on, perhaps to discuss some other things about God, if you like.

Tong
R4260

 

[quietthinker]

What you say there is totally another thing.

I asked you questions to clarify what you are saying. And from what you say in your post and the answers you gave to my questions, sums up to this: that all those who died before Christ, had their sins forgiven, were justified, and reconciled. And you said that that is what Paul preached and that thay is what you are saying.

My argument is against what you teach in your post #2067, and I quote “All humanity in Adam are subject to death, so all humanity in Jesus are forgiven, justified and reconciled.”

My argument is that if that was the gospel, as you contend, that Paul preached, then all those who lived before Christ, which includes those who were destroyed by God in the flood at Noah’s time, are saved, with all their sins forgiven so that there is no sin left unforgiven for which they would pay the penalty for, and having been justified and reconciled to God.

Up to this writing, I see nothing in your post there that refutes my argument there. So, if you have any refutation to give, please go ahead. If none, then that’s it and we can move on, perhaps to discuss some other things about God, if you like.

Tong
R4260

What else is there of value to discuss about God except his overwhelmingly great love for us? Its height, its depth, its width or has it become a cliche from which one moves onto bigger and better things.....ones that are neat and tidy and fit into ones cut and clipped paradigm where we can with certainty determine the destiny of generations who lived millennia ago??

 

[Tong2020]

What else is there of value to discuss about God except his overwhelmingly great love for us? Its height, its depth, its width or has it become a cliche from which one moves onto bigger and better things.....ones that are neat and tidy and fit into ones cut and clipped paradigm where we can with certainty determine the destiny of generations who lived millennia ago??

I take it that you have no refutation to offer against my argument. That ends that issue then. At least we can now move on.

Tong
R4262

 

[brightfame52]

One offering[His Death] he hath perfected for ever !

We know Christ did not die for or taste death for Heb 2:9 for every single individual without exception, for one, because no verse in all the bible states that, that has only been the claims of unfaithful teachers forcing that meaning, and secondly because the effects that His death causes upon them He did die for does not happen unto all without exception, which one result is by it [His death] they have been perfected forever Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering[His death] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

And for such there cannot be any eternal death Matt 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Now some may contend and say that Heb 10:14 applies to them that are being sanctified;

My answer to that would be, sure that's right, because all for whom Christ died are by that same one offering sanctified permanently Heb 10:10, and this entails and is accompanied with a purifying internally by reforming the soul by a saving knowledge of the Truth Jn 8:32

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

This is one of the Gifts to be bestowed upon them by the mediation of Christ Jn 17:17

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. [This is inwardly]

Which the Spirit is sent into us to do 2 Thess 2:13, and so thats all a result of the death of Christ, sanctifying and making perfect, all for whom He tasted death !810

 

[CadyandZoe]

<<<With regard to the topic of reconciliation vs. justification, I am first drawn to Romans 3:21-26 where Paul summarizes the distinction between reconciliation and justification quite well. >>>

Kindly tell, what is reconciliation and what is justification, as per your reading of the scriptures?

Tong
R4248

As you may already know reconciliation is the restoration of friendly relations. Whether we are talking about individuals, families or nations, reconciliation takes place when two enemies decide to make peace, end the hostilities, and establish harmonious relations.

Perhaps it goes without saying that until both parties cease hostilities, the war continues, peace has not yet been established. One side might make an overture of peace, temporarily declaring a ceasefire, but reconciliation hasn't taken place until the other side has accepted the offer or conditions that make for peace.

The New Testament concern is the enmity between God and man, and the question is, what will it take to bring peace between God and man? While the Reformers mistakenly understood this in terms of God's justice, the New Testament understands peace with God in terms of God's mercy. The Cross was not payment for sins, as some suppose. Rather, the New Testament understands the Cross to be a form of propitiation -- an appeasement of God's wrath.

Suppose a little girl, while playing in the house, accidently overturned a very expensive vase, destroying it. This makes her father very angry. And though her father punishes her, he remains angry and will not speak to her. The question is, what will it take to soften her father's heart and restore the relationship? She goes out into the garden, picks a flower, and brings it to her father. Her overture gives expression to her heartfelt desire to reconcile. Obviously her flower doesn't pay for the vase or bring the vase back. But it represents something true and right about her daughter's attitude. On that basis, her father's anger is appeased.

In other words, the New Testament answers to the question, what will it take to appease God's wrath and to gain his good will and favor? How can peace be established between God and man?

According to Jesus, the cross would be like the time when Moses raised a serpent on a stake. Only those who willingly bowed down at the stake were healed. According to Paul, the cross represents God's righteous indignation against the sins of Israel, and ultimately, against the sins of all mankind. Peace between God and any particular individual is only possible if the individual bows down before the cross to acknowledge an identification with the meaning of the cross. Reconciliation takes place when an individual agrees to the premise, "that was me on the cross. I deserve to die. I deserve to be punished for my sins. I deserve the wrath of God. I deserve to be forsaken."

God was reconciling with man through Jesus Christ, while we were still enemies (Romans 5:10) -- during a time when God was passing over our sins. (Romans 3:25, 2 Corinthians 5:19) We can get into the details of this idea if you like, but to say for now that, according to the New Testament, God made the overture of peace, publicly submitted for consideration, and one is free to accept the terms of reconciliation or reject it. To gain the favor and good will of God, one must confess his sins and accept God's offer of reconciliation, honestly, and with contrition. One must face the cross and confess, "I deserved that. And I agree with all that it implies."

On this basis, then, God is willing to declare, "this person is right with me. This act conforms to the will of God. This person is no longer my enemy." Paul, in his writings, has coined the term "justified" to indicate this state of being "right with God."

According to Paul, evidence of justification is faith (Hebrews 11) and according to James, evidence of faith is action. (James 2) Justification then, is the result of reconciliation when an individual, accepts God's offer of reconciliation by placing faith and trust in his son Jesus Christ.

God has made this offer to all of humankind to accept or reject. Those who accept it are declared "right with me" or "justified."

 

[CadyandZoe]

I take no issue with your statement here. Nonetheless, unless the topic has changed, I believe the talk is concerned with your original question of whether Christ died for all men without exception. In order to understand the New Testament answer to that question one must come to understand the distinction between reconciliation and justification.

I agree with your premise that God has not reconciled with all men. Only those who accept God's offer of reconciliation will find justification. But your question concerns the meaning of the cross and the New Testament declaration that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself.

John writes:

"He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

John seems to believe that Christ died for the sins of the whole world. And so, rather than attempting to bend John's word to fit my view of the atonement, I must rethink my position. What does John actually mean?

We know that atonement isn't possible unless someone accepts the terms and conditions that make for peace with God. For this reason, we are concerned that John's words seem to run contrary to that idea until we realize that John is speaking of the "offer" of reconciliation, not the state of reconciliation.

Indeed, we can see this distinction in his gospel here.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

God so loved the world that he publicly declared his terms of peace, giving his only begotten son, such that the formal acceptance of the offer is belief in his son.

Therefore, as to the question, "Did Jesus die for the sins of all mankind"?, we answer in the afirmative because the death of Jesus Christ was a universal offer of reconciliation.

We run into trouble if we affirm the Reformer's view that Christ either died "instead of us" or that Jesus suffered the penalty for our sins. Neither one of these theories is correct and both theories undercut the New Testament teaching that Christ died, "not only for our sins, but for the sins of the whole world."

Rather, we can rightly say that Christ died for all men without exception, when we realize, based on the New Testament, that the Cross was an offer of reconciliation, not a means to satisfy justice.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You are missing the magnanimity of God. What other God would make himself vulnerable to his creatures and forgive those who abuse him? He came so that we might see his nature; one that would prefer to be killed rather than to kill.
The fact that people reject that magnanimity is to their own hurt yet in no way a reflection on God. He gave till he could give no more....he poured out his life unto death.

I agree with your point that God's offer of reconciliation was magnanimous especially in light of the fact that I owe God a debt of gratitude that I can never repay. I believe this principle, the one you highlighted, is a feature of Jesus' parable concerning the man who owed a king so much money, the man could never repay it. Matthew 18:23-35

The king forgave the man's debt and set him free. But when the king found out that the man was unwilling to forgive the debt of his brother, the king arrested the man and handed him over to the torturers.

This parable teaches us, among other things, that universal forgiveness has conditions and is not immutable. As Jesus, Paul and John suggest, God is passing over our sins for the time being.

For instance,
Paul reminds his readers that universal forgiveness is granted in order to give us time to repent. But for those who refuse to repent, there still remains a judgement.

Romans 2:4-6
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each person according to his deeds . . .

It would be unwise if I treated God's forbearance with disdain. Right?

 

[GodsBeloved11]

I don't believe in limited atonement, the scripture makes it clear that the call is for "whosoever will."

When you tell someone that Jesus died for their sins, do you screen that person as to whether they are called by God to salvation?

No you don't! You tell everyone that Christ died for their sins. That is the principle of Christ dying for the sins of the whole world.

We are to give the Gospel to everyone, then let God take it from there.

Exactly! He wills none should perish.

People perish because they didn't respond to the gospel.

Ask! Seek! Knock! But many don't. Or they seek the wrong gods.

I do wonder about those who have had little opportunity to hear the gospel . I believe God is merciful and a just judge and won't condemn anyone for things that aren't their choosing.

God is good. If He wasn't , why are we even bothering with Him?

At the end of the day, our job is to share Jesus . . Not to try figure it all out

 

[quietthinker]

I agree with your point that God's offer of reconciliation was magnanimous especially in light of the fact that I owe God a debt of gratitude that I can never repay. I believe this principle, the one you highlighted, is a feature of Jesus' parable concerning the man who owed a king so much money, the man could never repay it. Matthew 18:23-35

The king forgave the man's debt and set him free. But when the king found out that the man was unwilling to forgive the debt of his brother, the king arrested the man and handed him over to the torturers.

This parable teaches us, among other things, that universal forgiveness has conditions and is not immutable. As Jesus, Paul and John suggest, God is passing over our sins for the time being.

For instance,
Paul reminds his readers that universal forgiveness is granted in order to give us time to repent. But for those who refuse to repent, there still remains a judgement.

Romans 2:4-6
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each person according to his deeds . . .

It would be unwise if I treated God's forbearance with disdain. Right?

Yes, it would be unwise......and the foolishness of it is, it disables ones ability to see what has been given.

The term 'God's wrath' is not so much a madness that God has toward the sinner as is often supposed but rather the sinners own demise which he initiates and perpetrates upon himself.....one could call it suicide. It can be done slowly through addictions or it can be done quickly as did Judas.

Death is not so much an arbitrary penalty as it is the natural consequence of running from Life.

 

[brightfame52]

One offering[His Death] he hath perfected for ever !

Now those whom God, by means of the death of Christ, sanctifies and perfects forever, shall have the following spiritual blessings to their favor Heb 10:15-18

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.817

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Now Vs 16 Promises inward sanctification, consisting of His Law [which is spiritual] by His Spirit being put into the inward parts See Jer 31:33

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Now this is the result of Christ's death that permanently sanctified them Heb 10:10 that word sanctified hagiazó: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify, to purify internally by reformation of soul:

And thats why God fufills His Promise to " I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them"

Those Christ died for must experience, by the virtue of His death a purification internally, a renewal as indicated here Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Its also the setting apart of our minds, emotions and will to do the will of God, we are given the Spirit of Life Rom 8:2, for Christ the Mediator of the Covenant, upon His death and resurrection for us [the elect] sends into us a life giving Spirit 1 Cor 15:45

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.ESV

This brings to pass the blessed effects of His death sanctifying them internally, hence being permanently sanctified by His one and only tasting of death, which ensures those blessings Heb 10:16 !

So, understand, you who ignorantly insist that Christ's death was for all without exception, then you must explain why all without exception do not experience the blessings of Heb 10:16 ! You are saying that Christ's death failed to produce those blessed results, which is contrary to scripture !

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes, it would be unwise......and the foolishness of it is, it disables ones ability to see what has been given.

The term 'God's wrath' is not so much a madness that God has toward the sinner as is often supposed but rather the sinners own demise which he initiates and perpetrates upon himself.....one could call it suicide. It can be done slowly through addictions or it can be done quickly as did Judas.

Death is not so much an arbitrary penalty as it is the natural consequence of running from Life.

Isn't death inevitable no matter what? I think so. Solomon made this point in the book of Ecclesiastes. A man may be a fool; but he will die. A man may be wise; but he will also die. In his view, death robs life of meaning. Eternal life, on the other hand, gives this life significance. What we do now can affect our existence then.

Thus Solomon lays out, in heart wrenching detail, the problem. Death trivializes our history. By contrast, Jesus lays out the answer to Solomon. Death is inevitable, but the Father is willing to sustain a man's life forever if he believes in his son.