Why I believe in the rapture.

[farouk]

Interesting side point: Inter-testimental Jews all believed (we know this from various writings) that the ‘unclean spirits’ and ‘demons’ that would oft possess and torment people, were actually the spirits of the dead Nephilim giants.
It’s actually rather fascinating to look into.
Sorry, pretty off topic, just an interesting note.

@Naomi25: Jews were also very much into angels; Hebrews has some strong things to say about the superiority of the Lord Jesus to angels - chapter 1.

 

[farouk]

We’ve been over this. But fine. Wanna walk through it again?
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 8:51
Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”
John 20:31
but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
John 3:15
that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
1 Peter 1:23
since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;

Okay. Let’s see what “believing” in Jesus gets us.
* eternal life
* passing from death TO life
* never seeing death
* Is a new creation, the new has come
* Is made of imperishable seed.

So, while we know, from experience that Christians still die…the ‘first death’, we can assume that when being ‘born again’ promises us eternal life, never seeing death, being a new creation, etc….that this ‘new life’ saves us from….wait for it…”the second death”.
Okay, so we’ve got to ask. WHO is it, that doesn’t have to fear the second death????

Revelation 20:6
[6] Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Goodness! The person who ‘shares in the first resurrection’, the ‘second death’ has no power over them!
So, I dunno…I could just be getting cheeky, but me and my bible thinks you could, just possibly, be getting ‘semantic-y’ over “born again” and ‘first resurrection’ being nothing alike. Given the outcome described therein.


Why would I reject God? Let’s say you’re right and I’m wrong. So what? What is that going to objectively change? ……
I still believe Jesus is Lord and Saviour. I still believe he’s coming back. I still believe in the final resurrection…whatever number we want to slap on it.
All that would ultimately change is when people get their resurrection bodies and the possible time frames in between. And you know, I just don’t think that’s something to get all that worked up over…God’ll still be Lord, right?
So no…I can’t say why you’d want to lump that in with me “rejecting God.”



Hmm. Yeah…I’m beginning to see that you and I are just not going to see eye to eye on this point. No matter how much we trade verses. Maybe its time we let it be?

@Naomi25 Great verses there! good to stick to the simple statements of Scripture, right?

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25: Jews were also very much into angels; Hebrews has some strong things to say about the superiority of the Lord Jesus to angels - chapter 1.

Absolutely! Once you’ve seen the idea behind the divine council, you see references to it everywhere!

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 Great verses there! good to stick to the simple statements of Scripture, right?

Well, I like to…but I’ve no doubt there are those who think I’m totally butchering the intent. It’s always just a little baffling to me how so many people can…quite honestly see totally different things in the same passages.

 

[farouk]

Well, I like to…but I’ve no doubt there are those who think I’m totally butchering the intent. It’s always just a little baffling to me how so many people can…quite honestly see totally different things in the same passages.

@Naomi25 Well, I guess it all starts with different presuppositions, whether about the nature of the church and Israel, and so forth.

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 Well, I guess it all starts with different presuppositions, whether about the nature of the church and Israel, and so forth.

Absolutely. Plus, life experiences…the way people think. Who we listen to…etc.
The thing that fascinates me is….God totally knew it would work out this way. You would THINK he’d want unity in his people, when it came to understanding his word. And yet, he would have known how it would be…and I suspect it totally unfazed him. Which tells me that just maybe, it isn’t the end of the world that a lot of people think it is.
Don’t get me wrong…I think there are some things, some evidently clear things, that can put you outside the bounds of grace. Unfortunately. But I suspect within it, we’re possibly like a family who argues who’s footy team is the best.

 

[farouk]

Absolutely. Plus, life experiences…the way people think. Who we listen to…etc.
The thing that fascinates me is….God totally knew it would work out this way. You would THINK he’d want unity in his people, when it came to understanding his word. And yet, he would have known how it would be…and I suspect it totally unfazed him. Which tells me that just maybe, it isn’t the end of the world that a lot of people think it is.
Don’t get me wrong…I think there are some things, some evidently clear things, that can put you outside the bounds of grace. Unfortunately. But I suspect within it, we’re possibly like a family who argues who’s footy team is the best.

@Naomi25 Yes, well, the Lord Jesus' promise of John 16.13 is collective, not through just one person, which is indeed wise:

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

 

[farouk]

PS: @Naomi25 : 'you' (plural) there in John 16.13....

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 Yes, well, the Lord Jesus' promise of John 16.13 is collective, not through just one person, which is indeed wise:

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

I often think that perhaps God does it for a reason. Differences bring conversation. Conversation bring defence…defence brings study and study brings people back to the word. Well…it should! If we’re all trying to talk about what we think about, disagree about, are trying to defend, then we ought to be doing so with God’s word front and centre. Which makes God’s word front and centre! And we know that God’s word is a living and breathing thing, capable of amazing things! I think its probably capable, even past our own biases, to shift our hearts if need be!

 

[farouk]

I often think that perhaps God does it for a reason. Differences bring conversation. Conversation bring defence…defence brings study and study brings people back to the word. Well…it should! If we’re all trying to talk about what we think about, disagree about, are trying to defend, then we ought to be doing so with God’s word front and centre. Which makes God’s word front and centre! And we know that God’s word is a living and breathing thing, capable of amazing things! I think its probably capable, even past our own biases, to shift our hearts if need be!

@Naomi25 Reminds me of the words of Ann Steele in the 18th century:

"O may these hallowed pages be
My ever dear delight!
And still new beauties may I see,
And still increasing light!" :)

 

[farouk]

Daniel is classically described by most scholars as apocalyptic. It’s definitely not ‘interpreted by humanly devised symbols’, and has a clear connection to Revelation. Even Christ himself references the book, which he does no other OT by name.

I think so many people get twitchy when the genre of ‘apocalyptic’ is used…perhaps because many people do use it as an excuse to wave away the content in such figurative mannerisms that the book becomes effectively useless. That ought not be the case, and is not truly what apocalyptic means.
It differs from ‘prophectic’ books in that prophetic discourse tends to be both straight foretelling as well as forth-telling. If you look through some of the classic prophetic books, there is not such heavy use of the strange symbology.
People just need to keep in mind that behind the strange symbology is very real and true meanings. We can see this clearly in Daniel as the visions are interpreted for us. They’re interpreted clearly as earthly Kingdoms, clashing and defeating one another. We also see heavenly scenes in Daniel, and I think we get more of that in Revelation. The spiritual realm is ever present and very real…an ongoing battle raging around us. The war is won, but Revelation gives us a glimpse into that heavenly reality, and, I think, describes to us how it spills over into this world.

@Naomi25 Re. the word 'apocalyptic'; interesting that Revelation is sometimes called the Apocalypse...

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 Re. the word 'apocalyptic'; interesting that Revelation is sometimes called the Apocalypse...

Well, the word ‘apokalypis’ means revelation, or unveiling. So, the book is, literally, ‘the apocalypse of Christ’.

 

[farouk]

Well, the word ‘apokalypis’ means revelation, or unveiling. So, the book is, literally, ‘the apocalypse of Christ’.

@Naomi25 Interesting that the word 'unfolding' is used sometimes as a heading to the passage about the Incarnation in John chapter 1.... Kind of gives an idea of the great privilege of receiving revealed truth...

 

[VictoryinJesus]

More, Rev 20 tells us that those who experience the “first resurrection”, the ‘second death’ cannot hurt.
That tells us something of the what these things are. The second death is destruction in the Lake of fire, Rev 20 tells us. So, the ‘first death’ is normal, physical death.

Curious what your perspective is on
2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: [15] And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

first death?

Galatians 6:14-15 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. [15] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.


First death?
What of the second which will not hurt those of the first crucified with Christ Romans 8:10-13 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. [11] But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. [12] Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. [13] For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (Suffer no hurt?)


Romans 6:9-11 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. [10] For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. [11] Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Hebrews 9:27-And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: [28] So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

? With all due respect in saying the first death is when we go into a coffin and are buried …what of crucified with Christ as the first (once to die) and the first resurrection being “alive unto God.”?

 

[Timtofly]

We’ve been over this. But fine. Wanna walk through it again?
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 8:51
Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”
John 20:31
but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
John 3:15
that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
1 Peter 1:23
since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;

Okay. Let’s see what “believing” in Jesus gets us.
* eternal life
* passing from death TO life
* never seeing death
* Is a new creation, the new has come
* Is made of imperishable seed.

So, while we know, from experience that Christians still die…the ‘first death’, we can assume that when being ‘born again’ promises us eternal life, never seeing death, being a new creation, etc….that this ‘new life’ saves us from….wait for it…”the second death”.
Okay, so we’ve got to ask. WHO is it, that doesn’t have to fear the second death????

Revelation 20:6
[6] Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Goodness! The person who ‘shares in the first resurrection’, the ‘second death’ has no power over them!
So, I dunno…I could just be getting cheeky, but me and my bible thinks you could, just possibly, be getting ‘semantic-y’ over “born again” and ‘first resurrection’ being nothing alike. Given the outcome described therein.


Why would I reject God? Let’s say you’re right and I’m wrong. So what? What is that going to objectively change? ……
I still believe Jesus is Lord and Saviour. I still believe he’s coming back. I still believe in the final resurrection…whatever number we want to slap on it.
All that would ultimately change is when people get their resurrection bodies and the possible time frames in between. And you know, I just don’t think that’s something to get all that worked up over…God’ll still be Lord, right?
So no…I can’t say why you’d want to lump that in with me “rejecting God.”



Hmm. Yeah…I’m beginning to see that you and I are just not going to see eye to eye on this point. No matter how much we trade verses. Maybe its time we let it be?

My point is those with the second birth in the Holy Spirit are also not touched by the second death even without the first resurrection. Unless of course one plans on rejecting God.


So it is not semantics. Being born of the Holy Spirit is already passing from death to life. The first resurrection happens when the soul leaves this body and enters the permanent incorruptible body in Paradise.

The point is that every time the word first is mentioned it means physical, it is not a when, but can only deal with the physical body.

When the term second is mentioned it deals with the spirit. The second birth is by the Holy Spirit. The second death is the soul and spirit cast into the Lake of Fire. The second resurrection would be the soul and spirit being brought out of the Lake of Fire after the Second Death. It is not a matter of when. It is a matter of how.

The GWT is not really a when either. It is not even in time. It is after this current heaven and earth pass, which to us places it after the end of time, but not in time. The only thing that does exist is the throne. No where do your verses state we have to wait until time is no more to receive our eternal life. If you are waiting for the "hour to come", it is definitely not the non-literal hour that does not even exist, is it? If it is not a literal hour, and Jesus pointed out it was already there, then it is ongoing from the time Jesus spoke, until time stops.

 

[Timtofly]

The day of the lord is called A DAY for a good reason. It’s not a thousand years.

The day of the lord is synonymous with the second coming, as proven in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

That passage states that He comes with flaming fire, and vengeance, and kills evil doers at His second coming and rapture of the saints - before His millennial reign on earth with the saints, and all who are left alive of the gentile nations, aka the sheep nations.

The goat nations are destroyed by flaming fire - but that doesn’t take a thousand years to do.

The day of the lord lasts as long as the war does - which isn’t long.

The Day of the Lord starts with and includes the Second Coming. Do you call the tribulation the Day of the Lord? Was the 3.5 years in the first century the Day of the Lord? We are not talking about a war. We are talking about the final harvest. We are talking about all of Adam's dead flesh and blood destroyed. That is not a war or battle. That is the decisive act of the Lord God to totally change history and start a new Millennium, that is totally different from the current way of life.

 

[marks]

Interesting side point: Inter-testimental Jews all believed (we know this from various writings) that the ‘unclean spirits’ and ‘demons’ that would oft possess and torment people, were actually the spirits of the dead Nephilim giants.
It’s actually rather fascinating to look into.
Sorry, pretty off topic, just an interesting note.

It was years after I figured that out from the Bible before I found out anyone else thought that.

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

I’m gonna ignore the resurrection statement. Like I said in my last post. I think we’ve been there, done that…not gonna agree.

*forehead slap* “the earth is free of Satan for 1000 years”
So. You didn’t read the passages from Rev 20 I put up, then.
Where….where…does it say that “the earth is FREE from Satan for 1000 years? Huh? Please. Enlighten me.


Really?
I suppose if I say, “dude, that is TOTALLY an analogy for the ‘four corners of the globe’…as in, the whole world”….you’ll be like “nuh-uh…the earth isn’t flat”.
*forehead slap*


I am…totally unsure where you get your impressions or your facts, but once again, I have a feeling that in this matter, we shall not agree.

Does Satan decieve the Nations while being bound or after he is loosed from the pit? Are you claiming God is being vague and we have no clue how long Satan will be bound?

Revelation 20:7

7 When the thousand years are over, the Adversary will be set free from his prison.

Was he decieving the nations before that point?

8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four quarters of the earth.

Why do you think Satan was bound? It was to prevent any influence from Satan, period.


This is not a Hollywood movie where the gang leader still controls the gang from behind bars. Satan literally has to wait 1000 years, and only then can he once again start to decieve any one.

 

[Curtis]

The Day of the Lord starts with and includes the Second Coming. Do you call the tribulation the Day of the Lord? Was the 3.5 years in the first century the Day of the Lord? We are not talking about a war. We are talking about the final harvest. We are talking about all of Adam's dead flesh and blood destroyed. That is not a war or battle. That is the decisive act of the Lord God to totally change history and start a new Millennium, that is totally different from the current way of life.

The day of the lord is not a harvest, tts a day of vengeance and death by flaming fire - do you REALLY think that will take Jesus a thousand years to do?

And since the sun goes dark on the day of the lord, do you REALLY think there’s a thousand years of darkness during the millennium?

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the land a desolation and to destroy its sinners from it.

Isa 13:10 For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light.

Isa 13:11 I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pomp of the arrogant, and lay low the pompous pride of the ruthless.

Does Satan decieve the Nations while being bound or after he is loosed from the pit? Are you claiming God is being vague and we have no clue how long Satan will be bound?

Revelation 20:7

7 When the thousand years are over, the Adversary will be set free from his prison.

Was he decieving the nations before that point?

8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four quarters of the earth.

Why do you think Satan was bound? It was to prevent any influence from Satan, period.


This is not a Hollywood movie where the gang leader still controls the gang from behind bars. Satan literally has to wait 1000 years, and only then can he once again start to decieve any one.

The millennial reign of Jesus is to show all creation, especially all the angels, fallen and unfallen, , the difference between life on earth when satan was the god of this world ever since Adam - with all the war, hate, evil, suffering, pain, misery and disease - and the world with Jesus ruling the nations for a thousand years, so there will be no doubt that sentencing Satan into the lake of fire - which happens at the end of the millennium - is completely fair and just.

That is why Satan is bound for those thousand years.

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 Interesting that the word 'unfolding' is used sometimes as a heading to the passage about the Incarnation in John chapter 1.... Kind of gives an idea of the great privilege of receiving revealed truth...

I don’t know that I’ve seen a version that’s used the word “unfolding”.
It’s not unlike, i suppose, when Paul drops the word ‘mystery’. Through Paul..John, we’re being told/shown new understandings about God and his plan. Yes…a great privilege indeed.