Why I believe in the rapture.

[Curtis]

Armageddon is not Gog Magog. I never mixed up Gog Magog at the end of the Millennium with Armageddon at the start of the Millennium.

Still not seeing how Christ reigns on earth for 1000 years, but does not come to earth until after finishing the 1000 year reign on earth. If Christ is present, then He already came the second time.

Are we supposed to twist around the chronological order to be correct? Who determines which twisted chronological order is the correct order, if John did not give us the correct chronology?

Jesus comes to earth in Revelation 19.

 

[Naomi25]

Are you saying no nation is currently decieved by Satan. All are in direct obedience to God?

It’s got nothing to do with ‘direct obedience’. Let’s really look at what Revelation is saying about Satan’s “binding”:

Revelation 20:1-3
[1] Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. [2] And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, [3] and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

Revelation 20:7-9
[7] And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison [8] and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. [9] And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,

What does Satan do when his ‘binding’ is released? He deceives and gathers the nations, all of them as one…a concerted effort…together FOR BATTLE. Against whom? The saints and the beloved city.
This tells us that the binding of Satan isn’t just to stop his general nastiness or effects of evil upon the world. It’s to stop his ultimate goal…deceiving the peoples of the world into wiping out the people of God.

.
The Second Coming is a physical event, exactly like the first coming. At the Second Coming all that is viewed as spiritual will be exposed and nothing spiritual will be hidden from our view.

Satan will certainly make himself known this time, and not hide in the shadows. Thus will be the only time Satan is allowed full control and access. Revelation 13 shows us how much power and authority Satan is given for 42 months. Satan did not earn that. Satan did not get that for good behaviour.


It was the failure of the church right before the Second Coming to bring in a full harvest. Too many souls will be left, and Satan gets the gleanings. Even then many will choose to be beheaded instead of following Satan.

People do not follow Satan now because he has a lot to offer. They choose Satan, because that is what this sinful flesh desires. All Satan had to do was to figure out how to get Adam to disobey God. The rest was fairly easy after that point.

The church seems convinced they get to face Satan head on after the Second Coming. If they are not already doing that now, why would it be different after the Second Coming?

I’m afraid I don’t see your point at all in the above. Sorry.

 

[Naomi25]

Because the 1000 year reign with Christ is the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is not the Second Coming.

So says you.
Okay then, if you’re so sure I’m wrong, and all the verses I posted are out of context (and I’m not saying that’s not a possibility), then show me. Don’t just “say” so. Or assume saying so counts. Bible verses please!

.God brings the judgment of fire with Him. There is no 3.5 years of peace leading up to the Second Coming. The Second Coming is the unexpected part of the whole book of Revelation. Should any one be able to pinpoint when the 6th Seal is about to be opened?

Once again, I’m scrabbling to keep up with your logic. None of these sentences seem connected in my mind.
“There is no 3.5 years of peace leading up to the Second Coming”. ….who said there was?
“The Second Coming is the unexpected part of the whole book of Revelation”…there can be an ‘unexpected part’ of a whole book? Shouldn’t it just be an ‘unexpected part’ of ‘part’ of the book…hence the ‘part’? And who said anything about the 2nd coming be either expected OR unexpected in Revelation? What does that have to do with our conversation at all?
“Should any one be able to pinpoint when the 6th Seal is about to be opened?”…have I attempted to pinpoint? Or mentioned the 6th Seal at all?
Are we even having the same conversation at this point?

 

[Timtofly]

Semantics.
Look again at HOW it is describes we are given life when we “born again”:


John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 8:51
Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”

John 20:31
but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

John 3:15
that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

1 Peter 1:23
since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;

It is not simply a matter of ‘second birth’, as you would want to dismiss it in such a term. It is describes at “passing from death to life”…”eternal life”. As “never seeing death”, as “passing out of death and into life”, as the “new has come”.
And lastly, an interesting correlation between Paul’s passage with resurrection…Peter tells us that we have been “born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable”.
Let’s have a quick look at Paul’s description of the “actual”, physical resurrection:


1 Corinthians 15:42-46
So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. [43] It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. [44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. [45] Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. [46] But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.

So, Peter speaks about being “born again”, not of “perishable see, but of imperishable seed” and Paul speaks of the resurrection of the dead as being “sown perishable, raised imperishable”…we have a direct correlation between the two.

Semantics is what prevents the Second Death?

Do you plan on rejecting God in the near future?

That is Paul's point about being changed. Accepting the Atonement is accepting the Holy Spirit to be in control. Is that a daily battle against the flesh? Because if the change already happened, some claim there is no struggle at all. Then this verse applies: 1 John 1:8-10

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

This is not a fact before we accept the Atonement. This comes after this verse:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Yes we have passed from death into life, but not physically nor spiritually until we shed this corruptible body. We have passed from death into the power of the Holy Spirit.

Many teach we will not be changed, even those who have already shed this corruptible body, until the Second Coming. Some even after the Second Coming put that change off until the GWT. Paul claims the change already happened to those in Paradise. I accept that, even though I was never taught that from any church. The church in Paradise and alive on earth at the Second Coming are awaiting the glorification part. That is the complete restoration of the image of God. Paul pointed out that the Cross allowed the change from a corruptible physical body to an incorruptible physical body. This seconds Jesus' own words to the thief who repented and asked to be remembered, and Jesus' answer was that the thief would be present in Paradise that day. The first of the church to physically die after the Atonement was completed. The Cross also set free the souls from Abraham's bosom and allowed them to enter Paradise with bodies as well. Paradise being the Garden of Eden that was literally blocked by an angel with a flaming sword. The Atonement Covenant of the Cross removed the angel at the entrance and allowed Adam's offspring to have permanent incorruptible bodies to enter Paradise. The whole church from the OT and NT are the firstfruits up until the Second Coming. Then the church alive and remaining on the earth. Then cometh the end after the Millennium, when all alive on earth will enter the NHNE.

 

[Timtofly]

Timtofly: Christians are born again and spiritually reborn - and do not remain spiritually dead:

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Spiritually, we are reborn, and since we become part of His body through marriage- the two become one - we sit with Jesus in heaven, spiritually.

Reborn implies two physical births. Those verses do not claim either a rebirth nor second physical birth. The second birth is a one time event into the power of the Holy Spirit. It is spiritual but does not change the souls relationship to the corruptible body nor one's spirit. We are still in these corruptible dead physical bodies.

 

[farouk]

Forgive me, but…are you suggesting that the quotes I gave were not from scripture? Because I can most certainly list the verses they came from if you wish. I do agree, that one must back ones claims with scripture. I did not in the above case because during the conversation I’d been having, the verses had previously been used, I believe, and therefore ought to have been recognised.

@Naomi25 Oh I wasn't suggesting that; I was referring to someone I heard, years ago; I guess I was going off at a tangent (as I am prone to do...)

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus comes to earth in Revelation 19.

Yes He does. He returns for Armageddon, a planned event to the day and hour. He and the 144k left for Mount Zion after these verses:

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Christ and the 144k leave Jerusalem until the 42 months end. And after the 3.5 days the 2 witnesses lay dead in the street of Jerusalem. The same earthquake in Revelation 11:13 as in Revelation 16:18-19. They ascend into heaven on a Sunday morning, and the battle of Armageddon goes from 5pm to 6pm later that day. Armageddon is the one hour event where the 10 kings join Satan against the rider on the white horse.

 

[Curtis]

Reborn implies two physical births. Those verses do not claim either a rebirth nor second physical birth. The second birth is a one time event into the power of the Holy Spirit. It is spiritual but does not change the souls relationship to the corruptible body nor one's spirit. We are still in these corruptible dead physical bodies.

That’s not what I said. Christians are spiritually reborn, which obviously changes our spirit and makes it completely new, which is why that even though our bodies are the same after the new birth, scripture says, if any man be in Christ, he IS A NEW creation. That’s obviously not our bodies.
However unlike what many claim, a born again Christian can die spiritually again, if they become reprobates.

 

[Naomi25]

How is what I posted multiple births or even rebirth? Nicodemus asked the same point about being born again. We are born into the family of God only one time, and it does not come and go as constantly loosing one's salvation.

Not sure why you think I claim multiple births. I said the birth into God's family is not a resurrection from a dead corruptible body into an incorruptible one. It is not a spiritual resurrection either. It is the second birth, by the Holy Spirit and is of a spiritual nature. We do not rebirth our own spirit.

Forgive me if I misrepresented exactly what you meant, I did not mean to. But in a way, this is sort of a perfect example to illustrate my point. When I said ‘multiple births’, I was categorising it with ‘multiple resurrections’, as I thought you were.
Let me try and explain. We see people ‘born again’ every day…every moment throughout history, don’t we? It happens all the time, whenever someone comes to Christ. It is not something that only happens once, at a single point in time.
To me, it seems YOU were saying that resurrection was like that, that it was like ‘new birth’ in that believers can expect resurrections to occur multiple times throughout history.
However, I believe, and I think I’ve provided ample scripture, that shows that THE resurrection of the dead will only occur AT Christ’s return. So, to look for multiple resurrections as we do the way people are born again, is biblically erroneous.

.
The soul goes from this corruptible body immediately to a permanent incorruptible body. 2 Corinthians 5:1-8

No where does Paul say we have to wait for the Second Coming for this to happen.

Okay, let’s look at this passage.

2 Corinthians 5:1-8
[1] For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. [2] For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, [3] if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. [4] For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. [5] He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
[6] So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, [7] for we walk by faith, not by sight. [8] Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Does this say, anywhere, that we will be resurrected? That we will be given our first fruit bodies? I ask because what we must make of this passage must ALSO fit with these other passages:

1 Corinthians 15:20-23
[20] But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. [21] For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. [22] For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. [23] But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:50-52
[50] I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. [51] Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
[15] For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. [16] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

So…whatever 2 Cor 5 is speaking about, cannot be the resurrection of the dead, can it? Because Paul is clearly telling us elsewhere that the resurrection of the dead will happen AT Christ’s return, when the Rapture happens.
There are suggestions people have to explain what Paul IS speaking about in 2 Cor 5, but I honestly don’t know if its anything but speculation.

 

[Timtofly]

It’s got nothing to do with ‘direct obedience’. Let’s really look at what Revelation is saying about Satan’s “binding”:

Revelation 20:1-3
[1] Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. [2] And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, [3] and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

Revelation 20:7-9
[7] And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison [8] and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. [9] And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,

What does Satan do when his ‘binding’ is released? He deceives and gathers the nations, all of them as one…a concerted effort…together FOR BATTLE. Against whom? The saints and the beloved city.
This tells us that the binding of Satan isn’t just to stop his general nastiness or effects of evil upon the world. It’s to stop his ultimate goal…deceiving the peoples of the world into wiping out the people of God.



I’m afraid I don’t see your point at all in the above. Sorry.

Except for the fact there is a physical resurrection at the beginning of this 1000 years after Satan is bound, not before. The earth is free of Satan for 1000 years. Nor does it say all nations. It says from the 4 corners. The newest nations, settled last, the furthest from Jerusalem. Because they have to march across the whole breadth to reach Jerusalem in the center. Satan does not get an army from the area around Jerusalem. Claiming that the whole earth rejects God is a pretty bold assertion. Not that it could not happen, it took 500 years to corrupt all the sons of God who were in the image of God prior to Noah's Flood. Satan will not have that much time. He will go after the more vulnerable at the edges of society, but still get all those under 200 years of age or younger to rebel. I don't see how he will convince those older who have lived the longest, who are smaller in number any way. The whole point of it being 1000 years is that there will more people on earth at the end of that 1000 years, than even today. Yes many will be decieved by Satan.

But to claim that we are in the 1000 years, when Satan has been non stop decieving the world since Adam and Eve, does not make sense. Satan has never been prevented from decieving us. We have had to be on our guard from the very beginning. Yes the church and disciples had more power over Satan after the first coming of Christ. Even that power has not prevented the church from becoming apostate, and more than once. Satan has always been able to decieve the nations. Yes the church has had the power to bring healing to the nations. The facts given in God's Word do not point to us being in the 1000 year reign of Christ.

BTW, Satan will get His goal for 42 months. Still there will be people who reject Satan and decide to have their heads chopped off. But that 42 months is before the Millennium, not at the end of the Millennium.

 

[Timtofly]

Once again, I’m scrabbling to keep up with your logic. None of these sentences seem connected in my mind.
“There is no 3.5 years of peace leading up to the Second Coming”. ….who said there was?
“The Second Coming is the unexpected part of the whole book of Revelation”…there can be an ‘unexpected part’ of a whole book? Shouldn’t it just be an ‘unexpected part’ of ‘part’ of the book…hence the ‘part’? And who said anything about the 2nd coming be either expected OR unexpected in Revelation? What does that have to do with our conversation at all?
“Should any one be able to pinpoint when the 6th Seal is about to be opened?”…have I attempted to pinpoint? Or mentioned the 6th Seal at all?
Are we even having the same conversation at this point?

The Day of the Lord is the whole Millennium. It starts at the Second Coming. The rapture and the Second Coming are the same event.

That is the topic of this thread.

 

[Naomi25]

No. You are not supposed to take my word for it. You are supposed to take God's Word for what it says. The distinction between the Resurrection/Rapture and the Second Coming has been presented many times with the relevant Scriptures. So no one should be making a mishmash out of those two events. And if someone simply dismisses the Rapture altogether, there is no need to waste time trying to set that straight.

Who’s dismissing the Rapture?
What I’m dismissing is your less than honest trolling.

 

[Curtis]

Yes He does. He returns for Armageddon, a planned event to the day and hour. He and the 144k left for Mount Zion after these verses:

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Christ and the 144k leave Jerusalem until the 42 months end. And after the 3.5 days the 2 witnesses lay dead in the street of Jerusalem. The same earthquake in Revelation 11:13 as in Revelation 16:18-19. They ascend into heaven on a Sunday morning, and the battle of Armageddon goes from 5pm to 6pm later that day. Armageddon is the one hour event where the 10 kings join Satan against the rider on the white horse.

Can’t agree.

Revelation 19 has to take place AFTER the last 42 months of tribulation, because His return to fight a war in chapter 19 ends the reign of the Antichrist, the beast, and false prophet - thus ending the tribulation.

The satanic trinity can’t be ruling the world, making war on the saints and wearing them out for 42 months, while at the same time Jesus throws two of them - the beast and false prophet - into the lake of fire, (at the end of chapter 19), and chains Satan up for a thousand years immediately after at the start of chapter 20.

 

[Timtofly]

That’s not what I said. Christians are spiritually reborn, which obviously changes our spirit and makes it completely new, which is why that even though our bodies are the same after the new birth, scripture says, if any man be in Christ, he IS A NEW creation. That’s obviously not our bodies.
However unlike what many claim, a born again Christian can die spiritually again, if they become reprobates.

A reprobate soul is the birth of a demon spirit. The spirit was never dead. It has been in God's presence since our conception. When a soul becomes reprobate, that is the death of the spirit. Can a demon be changed back into a living spirit? Conception is when the Holy Spirit is presented to start calling us to God. John the Baptist was moved in the womb. The soul is dead to our spirit. We are not in the image of God. We are like Seth, in the fallen image of Adam. Genesis 5:3

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

We cannot transfigure our spirit to be a bright light as seen on the mount of Transfiguration. We do not recieve our spirit at the second birth.

That is why Paul says we have the Holy Spirit as earnest or credit until the day we put on our spirit like a robe of white. Paul calls it putting on immortality.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

5 Moreover, it is God who has prepared us for this very thing, and as a pledge he has given us His Spirit.

 

[Naomi25]

Semantics is what prevents the Second Death?

We’ve been over this. But fine. Wanna walk through it again?
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 8:51
Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”
John 20:31
but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
John 3:15
that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
1 Peter 1:23
since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;

Okay. Let’s see what “believing” in Jesus gets us.
* eternal life
* passing from death TO life
* never seeing death
* Is a new creation, the new has come
* Is made of imperishable seed.

So, while we know, from experience that Christians still die…the ‘first death’, we can assume that when being ‘born again’ promises us eternal life, never seeing death, being a new creation, etc….that this ‘new life’ saves us from….wait for it…”the second death”.
Okay, so we’ve got to ask. WHO is it, that doesn’t have to fear the second death????

Revelation 20:6
[6] Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Goodness! The person who ‘shares in the first resurrection’, the ‘second death’ has no power over them!
So, I dunno…I could just be getting cheeky, but me and my bible thinks you could, just possibly, be getting ‘semantic-y’ over “born again” and ‘first resurrection’ being nothing alike. Given the outcome described therein.

.
Do you plan on rejecting God in the near future?

Why would I reject God? Let’s say you’re right and I’m wrong. So what? What is that going to objectively change? ……
I still believe Jesus is Lord and Saviour. I still believe he’s coming back. I still believe in the final resurrection…whatever number we want to slap on it.
All that would ultimately change is when people get their resurrection bodies and the possible time frames in between. And you know, I just don’t think that’s something to get all that worked up over…God’ll still be Lord, right?
So no…I can’t say why you’d want to lump that in with me “rejecting God.”

.
That is Paul's point about being changed. Accepting the Atonement is accepting the Holy Spirit to be in control. Is that a daily battle against the flesh? Because if the change already happened, some claim there is no struggle at all. Then this verse applies: 1 John 1:8-10

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

This is not a fact before we accept the Atonement. This comes after this verse:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Yes we have passed from death into life, but not physically nor spiritually until we shed this corruptible body. We have passed from death into the power of the Holy Spirit.

Many teach we will not be changed, even those who have already shed this corruptible body, until the Second Coming. Some even after the Second Coming put that change off until the GWT. Paul claims the change already happened to those in Paradise. I accept that, even though I was never taught that from any church. The church in Paradise and alive on earth at the Second Coming are awaiting the glorification part. That is the complete restoration of the image of God. Paul pointed out that the Cross allowed the change from a corruptible physical body to an incorruptible physical body. This seconds Jesus' own words to the thief who repented and asked to be remembered, and Jesus' answer was that the thief would be present in Paradise that day. The first of the church to physically die after the Atonement was completed. The Cross also set free the souls from Abraham's bosom and allowed them to enter Paradise with bodies as well. Paradise being the Garden of Eden that was literally blocked by an angel with a flaming sword. The Atonement Covenant of the Cross removed the angel at the entrance and allowed Adam's offspring to have permanent incorruptible bodies to enter Paradise. The whole church from the OT and NT are the firstfruits up until the Second Coming. Then the church alive and remaining on the earth. Then cometh the end after the Millennium, when all alive on earth will enter the NHNE.

Hmm. Yeah…I’m beginning to see that you and I are just not going to see eye to eye on this point. No matter how much we trade verses. Maybe its time we let it be?

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 Oh I wasn't suggesting that; I was referring to someone I heard, years ago; I guess I was going off at a tangent (as I am prone to do...)

I thought it best to just ask. Sometimes I just totally…miss…what people are trying to say. Completely me. But yeah, I agree…its always a little dangerous when people start spouting off on their own authority.

 

[Curtis]

The Day of the Lord is the whole Millennium. It starts at the Second Coming. The rapture and the Second Coming are the same event.

That is the topic of this thread.

The day of the lord is called A DAY for a good reason. It’s not a thousand years.

The day of the lord is synonymous with the second coming, as proven in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

That passage states that He comes with flaming fire, and vengeance, and kills evil doers at His second coming and rapture of the saints - before His millennial reign on earth with the saints, and all who are left alive of the gentile nations, aka the sheep nations.

The goat nations are destroyed by flaming fire - but that doesn’t take a thousand years to do.

The day of the lord lasts as long as the war does - which isn’t long.

 

[Naomi25]

Except for the fact there is a physical resurrection at the beginning of this 1000 years after Satan is bound, not before. The earth is free of Satan for 1000 years.
.

I’m gonna ignore the resurrection statement. Like I said in my last post. I think we’ve been there, done that…not gonna agree.

*forehead slap* “the earth is free of Satan for 1000 years”
So. You didn’t read the passages from Rev 20 I put up, then.
Where….where…does it say that “the earth is FREE from Satan for 1000 years? Huh? Please. Enlighten me.

.
Nor does it say all nations. It says from the 4 corners.

Really?
I suppose if I say, “dude, that is TOTALLY an analogy for the ‘four corners of the globe’…as in, the whole world”….you’ll be like “nuh-uh…the earth isn’t flat”.
*forehead slap*

.
The newest nations, settled last, the furthest from Jerusalem. Because they have to march across the whole breadth to reach Jerusalem in the center. Satan does not get an army from the area around Jerusalem. Claiming that the whole earth rejects God is a pretty bold assertion. Not that it could not happen, it took 500 years to corrupt all the sons of God who were in the image of God prior to Noah's Flood. Satan will not have that much time. He will go after the more vulnerable at the edges of society, but still get all those under 200 years of age or younger to rebel. I don't see how he will convince those older who have lived the longest, who are smaller in number any way. The whole point of it being 1000 years is that there will more people on earth at the end of that 1000 years, than even today. Yes many will be decieved by Satan.

But to claim that we are in the 1000 years, when Satan has been non stop decieving the world since Adam and Eve, does not make sense. Satan has never been prevented from decieving us. We have had to be on our guard from the very beginning. Yes the church and disciples had more power over Satan after the first coming of Christ. Even that power has not prevented the church from becoming apostate, and more than once. Satan has always been able to decieve the nations. Yes the church has had the power to bring healing to the nations. The facts given in God's Word do not point to us being in the 1000 year reign of Christ.

BTW, Satan will get His goal for 42 months. Still there will be people who reject Satan and decide to have their heads chopped off. But that 42 months is before the Millennium, not at the end of the Millennium

I am…totally unsure where you get your impressions or your facts, but once again, I have a feeling that in this matter, we shall not agree.

 

[Naomi25]

The Day of the Lord is the whole Millennium. It starts at the Second Coming. The rapture and the Second Coming are the same event.

That is the topic of this thread.

That the Rapture and second coming are one event, I’m down with. I’ve got that, thanks.
What I don’t follow, agree with, or see anywhere in scripture…or believe you have proven by it, is that the Day of the Lord spoken of in the NT is the 1000 years we see in Rev 20.

 

[Naomi25]

A reprobate soul is the birth of a demon spirit. The spirit was never dead.

Interesting side point: Inter-testimental Jews all believed (we know this from various writings) that the ‘unclean spirits’ and ‘demons’ that would oft possess and torment people, were actually the spirits of the dead Nephilim giants.
It’s actually rather fascinating to look into.
Sorry, pretty off topic, just an interesting note.