Why I believe in the rapture.

[Taken]

What you need to make clear is; The 'harparzo' prophesied by Paul in 1 Thess 4:17, is NOT to heaven.

Scripture itself is clear: Who is caught up, caught up from where, caught up to where, who is in heaven, who descends from heaven, to where.

The "rapture" English, or as you prefer "harparzo" Greek (same thing) "caught up"...
IS a "quick" "exact hour unknown"...as a "thief in the night"....taking of those IN CHRIST off the Earth.

WHO...will be "taken quickly, as a thief in the night"....IS expressly revealed....and expressly hinges on men:
IN CHRIST
1) FIRST to rise UP;
those WHO have physically died Converted
IN Christ....shall be caught up...
WHERE; TO the CLOUDS.
2 LAST to rise UP;
those WHO remain physically alive Converted IN Christ....shall be caught up...
WHERE; TO the CLOUDS.

Nothing whatsoever says these physically dead or physically living are "caught up" TO HEAVEN!

What Scripture Expressly reveals; IS these specific people mentioned ARE "caught up" TO THE CLOUDS.
(Clouds are never described as Heaven)
Further reading of 1 Thes 4 reveals:
the Lord....
(not the Lamb, not Jesus, not Christ, not God)
Descends FROM HEAVEN, to meet the specific people so mentioned (caught up).
WHERE the Lord meets them (those
IN Christ);
IS SPECIFICALLY IN THE AIR.
(Heaven is never described as where AIR is).

Men out of the dust of the earth, are terrestrials, are earthly....they can SEE clouds, Go to the Clouds, Be IN the clouds, they Breath the Air that surrounds the Earth.
THEY are NOT Risen UP to HEAVEN, as made abundantly clear in Scripture.

(Heaven / HeavenS itself, is another STUDY) .
Scripture makes abundantly clear terrestrial mens body's DID NOT COME DOWN from HEAVEN or ever GO UP TO HEAVEN.

THE WHO...Bodily dead, Bodily alive:
IN CHRIST.

THE WHY...Converted (saved, born again);
IN CHRIST.

The ORDER..The bodily dead, the bodily alive;
IN CHRIST

THE WHEN...Before the Tribulation Wrath.

THE WHY...Those IN CHRIST are NOT appointed to Wrath.

But, But, But....DO NOT BE SAD...
Concerning those "IN JESUS", never having had to your knowledge...Converted;
IN CHRIST.

Because GOD will Bring THEM WITH HIM, After the millennial reign and during the First great resurrection of ALL the rest who are SAVE, waiting to be Risen UP, UPON a NEW EARTH, in THEIR NEW BODY.

1 Thes 4:
[12] That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It is to where Jesus is and will be; in Jerusalem on earth.

THe RAPTURE is about...
Catching UP those IN CHRIST, in the clouds, in the air, where the Lord (who descends from Heaven) IS, IS where those IN Christ will be.

The RAPTURE is not about...an Earthly Kingdom, after the Tribulation.

Those IN CHRIST, have much to do, IN THE CLOUDS, (during the Tribulation period).

Anyone wondering what those IN CHRIST will be doing....would do well to STUDY the Order and Way of a historical Jewish Betrothal (Engagement), Jewish Wedding, Jewish Marriage Supper.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Timtofly]

I agree, perhaps I should have been more exact in my posting

(The Souls) from (The Dead) That Were Killed During The Tribulation, does this meet your standards?

(The Souls) (The Dead)

All Seen In Rev 20:4-5 is in the spiritual realm, nobody is brought to life or living as you falsely claim, they are (The Souls) of (The Dead) killed during the tribulation, waiting for the last day resurrection, they (Live And Reign) in the spiritual realm with Jesus Christ

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

As long as you are comfortable adding the text: spiritual realm to the words already written in Revelation 20?

 

[David H.]

What you need to make clear is; The 'harparzo' prophesied by Paul in 1 Thess 4:17, is NOT to heaven. It is to where Jesus is and will be; in Jerusalem on earth.
If that is what you mean, then we are in agreement. It is the idea that the Lord will whisk them to heaven, out of any trials and testing, that I reject.

And Truth7t7, the Last Day will happen will happen at the final Judgment, AFTER the Millennium. All as plainly set out in Revelation 20.

God will not leave his treasured possession bought by the blood of God on earth during His wrath.

And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels (Treasured possession); and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. (Malachi 3:17)

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts of the Apostles 20:28)

 

[Keraz]

God will not leave his treasured possession bought by the blood of God on earth during His wrath.

Your quotes make no mention of heaven. Where do you get that from?
Many scriptures say the Lord will protect His own people thru all that must happen. Going to heaven is impossible, Jesus said so. John 3:13, John 17:15, +

 

[Truth7t7]

As long as you are comfortable adding the text: spiritual realm to the words already written in Revelation 20?

(The Souls) below were killed during the tribulation, will you "Falsely" claim they are living on the earth in human bodies of flesh, blood, and bone?

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Timtofly]

(The Souls) below were killed during the tribulation, will you "Falsely" claim they are living on the earth in human bodies of flesh, blood, and bone?

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Yes, they lived and reigned for 1000 years. They had a resurrection. A first resurrection which is physical with a permanent incorruptible body. The second death, and second resurrection is spiritual. John does not call this a second resurrection which covers your spiritual condition. He called it a first resurrection which is physical. It is on earth because after the 1000 years, they are still on the earth.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Those resurrected on earth were in that beloved city on earth when Satan marches across the earth with a huge mass of physical humans. No where does it jump from physical to spiritual to back to physical. It was humans resurrected into physical permanent incorruptible bodies living on earth. It ends 10 centuries later with the offspring of these resurrected humans turning against their forefathers still alive in Jerusalem.

Of course it was souls given life and new bodies. It was not old bodies being given new life. It was the souls of former humans who had died to Adam's flesh and blood, resurrected, and given new permanent incorruptible bodies. It is only after Satan is allowed to decieve many on the fringes of the map, that there is a rebellion against their forefathers. This rebellion comes from the ends of the earth and marches to the center where Christ on the throne is.

If this is in the spiritual heavenlies as you claim, why does God let Satan loose in the heavens to decieve spiritual souls?

Why not just accept it is on earth, and fire comes down from heaven to consume those marching before they can commit any wrong doing or bodily harm to any one?

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, they lived and reigned for 1000 years. They had a resurrection. A first resurrection which is physical with a permanent incorruptible body. The second death, and second resurrection is spiritual. John does not call this a second resurrection which covers your spiritual condition. He called it a first resurrection which is physical. It is on earth because after the 1000 years, they are still on the earth.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Those resurrected on earth were in that beloved city on earth when Satan marches across the earth with a huge mass of physical humans. No where does it jump from physical to spiritual to back to physical. It was humans resurrected into physical permanent incorruptible bodies living on earth. It ends 10 centuries later with the offspring of these resurrected humans turning against their forefathers still alive in Jerusalem.

Of course it was souls given life and new bodies. It was not old bodies being given new life. It was the souls of former humans who had died to Adam's flesh and blood, resurrected, and given new permanent incorruptible bodies. It is only after Satan is allowed to decieve many on the fringes of the map, that there is a rebellion against their forefathers. This rebellion comes from the ends of the earth and marches to the center where Christ on the throne is.

If this is in the spiritual heavenlies as you claim, why does God let Satan loose in the heavens to decieve spiritual souls?

Why not just accept it is on earth, and fire comes down from heaven to consume those marching before they can commit any wrong doing or bodily harm to any one?

When Jesus Christ Returns It Will Be (The End) Not The Start Of A Millennial Kingdom On Earth

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Timtofly]

When Jesus Christ Returns It Will Be (The End) Not The Start Of A Millennial Kingdom On Earth

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

And you seem to ignore the 1991 years since the Cross and now. What is 1000 years between now and the end, other than the third day?

"After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight."

"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God."

From the Cross (the first fruits) until the Second Coming (the first 2 days). Then from the Second Coming until "then cometh the end", (the third day) is living in His Sight. At the end, the kingdom is handed back to God.

 

[Waiting on him]

FALSE.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Jesus is the firstfruits of the first resurrection, this resurrection is ongoing until Jesus comes again, when those souls will receive their heavenly bodies, and rule and reign with Christ a thousand years. That is why "THEY" are blessed.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (1 Corinthians 15:23)

Rule what?

 

[Truth7t7]

And you seem to ignore the 1991 years since the Cross and now. What is 1000 years between now and the end, other than the third day?

"After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight."

"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God."

From the Cross (the first fruits) until the Second Coming (the first 2 days). Then from the Second Coming until "then cometh the end", (the third day) is living in His Sight. At the end, the kingdom is handed back to God.

You "Add" to scripture something not seen, (First 2 Days) & (The Third Day) nowhere does it state your claims in scripture

When Jesus Christ Returns It Will Be (The End) Not The Start Of A Millennial Kingdom On Earth

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[David H.]

Rule what?

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 1 Corinthians 6:2-3

 

[Waiting on him]

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 1 Corinthians 6:2-3

So, the Apostle Paul addresses first century converts in Corinth,,,,, and you assume he’s addressing you? How do come to that conclusion?

Why is the epistle addressed to Corinth, and not @David H. ?

 

[David H.]

So, the Apostle Paul addresses first century converts in Corinth,,,,, and you assume he’s addressing you? How do come to that conclusion?

Why is the epistle addressed to Corinth, and not @David H. ?

Because we are all Brethren and sons and daughters of God By adoption. So are you saying salvation only applies to the first century church because it was preached to them?

You want Proof, I will give you Jesus' own words.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. (John 17:20-26)

 

[Naomi25]

There are a lot of Questions when the rapture will take place, But the main reason i believe there will be a rapture is that this is how God has acted in the past.

The righteous chosen ones have never been allowed to see the wrath of God.
Noah was sealed in an ark, Lot and His family were told not to look back. Israel and their families were protected by the passover blood, and we as the church are made righteous by the blood of the lamb of God will be protected.

Whether this rapture is as they show in movies or some other form of protection I do not think Scripture is clear, but I do know the church, the saints will not witness the Wrath of God.... The wrath of Satan and the wrath of the lamb are two different things all together.

National Israel on the other hand will witness the wrath of God, and drink of the cup of the wrath of God till they are drunk and then be spared.

Hi David. I also believe that the bible speaks of a Rapture. I also think it shows that God can, and sometimes does, protect those that are his, from his wrath. But…I think it is a mistake to assume a Pre-tribulational Rapture on this theory alone.
Firstly, we see God judging Israel in the OT for her sins and pouring out his wrath on her, even though there remained among the people those who had remained faithful. For example, we saw Daniel and his friends taken into captivity even though they clearly placed their faith in God above their very lives. God protected them in their exile, in the hardships they saw, but did not stop them from being taken into it.
We see this time and time again in the OT, where God would visit “Day of the Lord” judgement on Israel for their idolatry…Noah and Lot occasions were not common.
Indeed, I think trying to read the flood account, or even Lot’s sparing in light of evidence for a Pre-tribulational Rature, is reading into the text what is not meant to be there. The flood is clearly about the wickedness of mankind and God sparing a single family for the continuation of his salvational purposes…
When we see evidences for foreshadowing events throughout scripture, we usually must have some sort of scriptural evidence for pulling it from the text. For example, we have clear permission to point to the Passover and exodus of Israel as a foreshadowing event of Christ and his work on the cross. We have permission, because Christ is called the “The Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world”. It is a clear reference to the Passover Lamb, when Moses led God’s people out of slavery. My point being, to pull references to a Rapture from Noah’s account or Lots account, we would expect to find some mention of it when other biblical authors speak of eschatological issues. To my knowledge, they do not. Which makes the link tenuous at best.

To my understanding, the NT places the Rapture of the Church at the same time as the resurrection of the dead. 1 Cor 15:20-55, 1 Thess 5:15-17. And the resurrection of the dead is the same time as the judgement occurs before the Throne of God…both living and dead: Rev 20:11-15, Matt 25:31-46, Daniel 7:9-14.
Nothing in the text gives us leave to separate these events, and in point of fact, 1 Cor 15:20-55 unite them for us.

 

[Naomi25]

Rapture rejectors will be left behind. Jesus says He will rapture only those that are looking for Him.
Hebrews 9:28 Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to""" those who are waiting for him""".

Ahem. I’d love to see a scripture that equates “Pre-tribuational Rapture believer” with “Christians who are waiting for him”….as you seem to be doing.
No textual proof = no credibility.
I don’t mind a person being passionate for their personal doctrine of choice, even if I don’t think it’s a particularly wise hill to die on. But I do mind when they start making wildly inaccurate and unprovable “I’m a better Christian than you because I believe this” sort of claims with zero biblical proof.

 

[Naomi25]

The the right place for the Amill theory; is in the round bin!
Your own quote of Revelation 20, proves it. The idea that we are already in the Millennium, is disproved by the nearly 2000 years of this age.

You do understand that Amillennialism holds to an apocalyptic reading of Revelation, right? Which means that number usage within the book is symbolic, not literal.
I don’t mind if you object to the system, everyone’s got their beef with something. But if you’re going to berate it, try objecting to what it actually holds, yeah? For example…you could tell me why you think the taking the 1000 years in a non literal way is unfaithful to apocalyptic genre, rather than pretending Amil’s hold to a hermeneutical standard they do not, and tearing that down instead.
Yeah?

 

[David H.]

When we see evidences for foreshadowing events throughout scripture, we usually must have some sort of scriptural evidence for pulling it from the text. For example, we have clear permission to point to the Passover and exodus of Israel as a foreshadowing event of Christ and his work on the cross. We have permission, because Christ is called the “The Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world”. It is a clear reference to the Passover Lamb, when Moses led God’s people out of slavery. My point being, to pull references to a Rapture from Noah’s account or Lots account, we would expect to find some mention of it when other biblical authors speak of eschatological issues. To my knowledge, they do not. Which makes the link tenuous at best.

We Have Jesus' own words that tell us to look to these events "as in the days of Noah" Matthew 24:37 And "remember Lot's wife" (Luke 17:32) You would do well to read these passages and understand the warnings and the promises in them.

 

[Naomi25]

We Have Jesus' own words that tell us to look to these events "as in the days of Noah" Matthew 24:37 And "remember Lot's wife" (Luke 17:32) You would do well to read these passages and understand the warnings and the promises in them.

Indeed, let us consider them:

Matthew 24:36-42
No One Knows That Day and Hour
“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

The whole point of this parable and passage is that we “don’t know the day or hour” our Lord is coming.
It’s not to tell us that we’ll be wished away in a Rapture.
Let’s look: ‘concerning the day or hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only’. This is clearly what leads us into the passage and tells us what is framing it: not what, not how…not even when. Just that we CANNOT know. And that thus, we must be ready. We are then given examples of readiness.
“For as in the days of Noah”. Okay, so we have a reference to Noah here. Does it tell us that as Noah was taken out of harms way, so we too can expect it? No. That as Noah trusted in God he was removed from harm, so we too can expect it? No. IT’s got NOTHING to do with Noah’s being placed into the Ark and being spared. The whole THEME of this passage is readiness and unexpectedness. And THUS is was in Noah’s day. The people who drowned had no notion that judgement was coming upon them. If they did, don’t you think they too would have been building boats? Or begging Noah to take them with him? No…they were…as this very passage tells us…eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. And then it was too late. Judgement and death was upon them.
To make the message even surer…Jesus goes on and gives more examples of how swift this judgement will be….two in the field…one taken, one left. That’s blink of an eye territory. And we know that the Rapture, when it happens, will be.
But again, the POINT of the parable here is NOT that Noah was “pseudo-raptured” and thus we may expect to be before our modern day flood of wrath. No…the parable is that we must always be ready. To read anything else into the parable is eisegesis.

Now Luke:

Luke 17:27-33
They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all—so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed. On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back. Remember Lot’s wife. Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it.


Again, this parable warns of impending and swift judgement and the need to always be ready and watching. We have the same reference to Noah as we did in the Matt 24 passage, letting us know how similar these passages will be. Luke gives us more information on Lot.
“They were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building”. These are every day living activities, ones people do without thinking. Things they do to just live…routine. We…all of us, fall into these routines far too easily, without giving thought or purpose to what we should….Jesus. And the day he might crack open the sky. How did things turn out for Lot, as he was going about his daily life in a wicked world?
It all went rather badly rather quickly for him, didn’t it?
“Let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back. Remember Lot’s wife.”
Remember Lot’s wife. People who cling too hard to this world, who turn back because of the pleasures of this world, will loose their lives when sudden destruction comes upon them.
The lesson of this parable is NOT that as Christians we “get” a nice Rapture before 7 years of tribulation. It’s that as Christians we need to hold loosely to this world and keep our eyes on Jesus. Especially since we ‘don’t know what day or hour’. The two parables fit hand in glove. A person not knowing when Jesus is going to return should be encouraged, even more, to keep their eyes on Christ.
If both parables are “relax folks, the Rapture’s coming before things get hairy”….well, quite frankly….I simply don’t know how you’d get that read from those parables.

 

[Naomi25]

Since the Millennium is clearly revealed in Revelation 20, you are the one who is FALSELY CLAIMING that there is no Millennium. Therefore you have identified yourself as a false teacher by denying what the Bible affirms.

BEWARE OF FALSE TEACHERS IS WHAT CHRISTIANS ARE WARNED ABOUT.

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Ah! It’s so nice to see charity still exists within the church about open handed issues.

Please, enlighten me, brother, how is holding a different opinion on the timing of the millennium, a sufficient grievance to warrant labelling another a false teacher, of all things? To my knowledge he is not denying the inerrancy or scripture, or the deity or work of Christ…the Trinity. What makes a charge of ‘false teacher’ appropriate, other than your opinion on the matter?

 

[Keraz]

For example…you could tell me why you think the taking the 1000 years in a non literal way is unfaithful to apocalyptic genre

Non literal apocalyptic genre? Don't you mean; rejection of plainly worded scripture, made to suit a theory that denies about a quarter of the Bible?
AMill is a belief that simply leaves people in the dark. 1 Thess 5:5