Biblical Mary

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theefaith

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So why may I ask did we need Christ , when we had Mary ?

why are you so confused?
Christ is the source, his merits proceed from His passion and death produce all graces that come to us thru Mary!

it’s like saying we have the queen what do we need the king for?
Yet it was Esther who was queen and saved her people

Esther is a type of Mary
Both were fair
Both found favor
Both brought salvation
 

Mungo

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I've done BETTER than that - I've destroyed your main point regarding Semiramis and Nimrod, who NEVER even meant.
And to show you another asinine Hislop blunder - let's discuss his manure regarding the Bishop's miter (hat).

Hislop insists that the miter was derived from "Dagon worship" - Dagon, being a fish-god. The Bishop’s miter didn’t develop into its present form until the late Middle Ages – which is LONG after all of the “Dagon worshippers” were all dead and gone. Before that, it was a shorter version.

Dagon worshippers also forbade the eating of fish, which is something the Catholic Church has NEVER done. In fact, we’ve been accused by you anti-Catholics for eating TOO MUCH fish during Lent and that the Church had a financial interest in the fish industry. Another asinine and unsubstantiated charge . . .

Your confusion stems from the fact that you are ignorant of the customs and practices of Early Christianity.

Next time you’re driving on the freeway, pay attention to some of the cars with the Christian “Fish” symbol on the back. This symbol is an ancient CHRISTIAN symbol for Christ called. “ICHTHUS”. The letters inside the fish are the Greek letters which are the initials of the words I (ēsous) Ch (ristos) th (eou) hy(ios) s (ōtēr) meaning “Jesus Christ Son of God Savior”.

The fact that some ancient pagan culture did something first doesn’t mean that it was “adopted” by a later culture. They just happen to use the same symbol for different things.

Case in point – the Protestant “altar call”. An altar is a place of sacrifice – and Protestants reject the idea of sacrificing anything to God on an altar. Are they “adopting” Catholic doctrine – or does it have a different meaning??

Another example is the wedding ring, which has roots in paganism. Were YOU parttaking in “pagan worship” when you slipped a ring on your wife’s finger??

So, the next time you feel the need to post something as unfounded as this ridiculous charge – do your homework instead of posting this kind of ignorant nonsense . . .

He won't provide evidence because he knows by now it will be instantly debunked.
 
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Mungo

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Nice cop out! tghis also isn't a place to cut and paste from secular encyclopedias either if it is a discussion forum. If you don't wish to look at teh links then so be it. that is on you.
A discussion forum provides evidence from reputable sources.
So far you are failing to provide any.
 

BreadOfLife

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Like the myth of teh perpetual virginity of Mary and the myth that she had no more children. As well as the myth that Mary never sinned. I bring these up because thee faith posted what He thought was the Biblical Mary and these Catholic beliefs are not the biblical Mary. I have that from the most Credible Historic Scholar who ever lived! He is called the Holy Spirit!

Sooooo with the tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects who ALL teach different doctrines - yet ALL claim to have been "led by the Holy Spirit" - how do you know WHICH one is correct??
Yeah - that's what I thought . . .
By the Way, I am still waiting for yo to show how I lied about Catholic Doctrine and how I bore false witness to over 1 billion people. Or did you just throw that out with no ontent of providing evidence to your ad-hominems in hopes of distraction.
Your entire claim that Hislop's nonsense is "true" is a violation of God's Commandment against bearing false witness.
 

Ronald Nolette

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I've done BETTER than that - I've destroyed your main point regarding Semiramis and Nimrod, who NEVER even meant.
And to show you another asinine Hislop blunder - let's discuss his manure regarding the Bishop's miter (hat).

Hislop insists that the miter was derived from "Dagon worship" - Dagon, being a fish-god. The Bishop’s miter didn’t develop into its present form until the late Middle Ages – which is LONG after all of the “Dagon worshippers” were all dead and gone. Before that, it was a shorter version.

Dagon worshippers also forbade the eating of fish, which is something the Catholic Church has NEVER done. In fact, we’ve been accused by you anti-Catholics for eating TOO MUCH fish during Lent and that the Church had a financial interest in the fish industry. Another asinine and unsubstantiated charge . . .

Your confusion stems from the fact that you are ignorant of the customs and practices of Early Christianity.

Next time you’re driving on the freeway, pay attention to some of the cars with the Christian “Fish” symbol on the back. This symbol is an ancient CHRISTIAN symbol for Christ called. “ICHTHUS”. The letters inside the fish are the Greek letters which are the initials of the words I (ēsous) Ch (ristos) th (eou) hy(ios) s (ōtēr) meaning “Jesus Christ Son of God Savior”.

The fact that some ancient pagan culture did something first doesn’t mean that it was “adopted” by a later culture. They just happen to use the same symbol for different things.

Case in point – the Protestant “altar call”. An altar is a place of sacrifice – and Protestants reject the idea of sacrificing anything to God on an altar. Are they “adopting” Catholic doctrine – or does it have a different meaning??

Another example is the wedding ring, which has roots in paganism. Were YOU parttaking in “pagan worship” when you slipped a ring on your wife’s finger??

So, the next time you feel the need to post something as unfounded as this ridiculous charge – do your homework instead of posting this kind of ignorant nonsense . . .

Well as I didnt ask you about a bishops miter but mungo (unless you are mungo in disguise) you answer is moot.

So I take it seeing as you didn't cite any "credible" historic scholars, yo consider yourself one? How so?

YOu di dnot destroy it, you just cited encuclopedias using ancinet names and speculation. I assume you believe they are infallible?

Still waiting fo rthe following:

1. How one is determined a "credible" historic scholar by the question asked.

2. How I lied about Romanism
3. How I bore false witness to 1,000,000,000

Or are you just one who wishes to fling accusations in hope you won't be called to answer fo rthem.
 

Ronald Nolette

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why are you so confused?
Christ is the source, his merits proceed from His passion and death produce all graces that come to us thru Mary!

it’s like saying we have the queen what do we need the king for?
Yet it was Esther who was queen and saved her people

Esther is a type of Mary
Both were fair
Both found favor
Both brought salvation

Only Jesus brings salvation. Mary was just an earthen vessel god chose to use for HIs purposes.

She didn't stay virgin, she had other children, and she sinned. Or the the bible is wrong
 

Mungo

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And I asked you about the bishops mitre! I have a point but it needs you to answer first.

OK, here we go.

The current mitre was actually invented by Ignatius Kea in the 12th Century. Kea was a Bishop’s secretary responsible for packing the Bishop’s vestments and three mitres when his bishop went on tours of his diocese. As the round turban type of mitre was very bulky this caused him big problems. One night he had a vision of the future where furniture was disassembled for transportation and then re-assembled. It gave him the idea for a collapsible mitre. It became very popular with other bishop’s secretaries and the I.Kea flat pack mitre became the standard issue. (see note 1)

Note1:- This is not currently true as I made it up. However if I post it on enough web sites it will eventually become true.
 

BreadOfLife

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Well as you are so narrow in your deciding who is and who isn't a "credible" historical scholar, I am just needing to know how one is determined to become a "credible" scholar.

Still waiting for how one is determined and what lies about Romanism I am guilty of and how I have borne false witness to 1,000,000,000 Catholics.

guess we are stalled till these are answered.
You presented a couple of videos from an anti-Catholic minister.
Give me unbiased historical references - not ignorant anti-Catholic yahoos.

CAN you do that?
Yeah, I didn't think so . . .
 

Ronald Nolette

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Sooooo with the tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects who ALL teach different doctrines - yet ALL claim to have been "led by the Holy Spirit" - how do you know WHICH one is correct??
Yeah - that's what I thought .


Rabbit trail.

How have I lied about Romanism
How di dI bear false witness to 1,000,000,000 people
What determines who is a "credible" historic scholar.

Sooooo with the tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects who ALL teach different doctrines - yet ALL claim to have been "led by the Holy Spirit" - how do you know WHICH one is correct??
Yeah - that's what I thought . . .

Your entire claim that Hislop's nonsense is "true" is a violation of God's Commandment against bearing false witness.

Well I showed you from teh Encyclopedia Britannica that semiramis was nimrods wife and you reject it. They must not be credible.

And please explain how the nimrod/semiramis discussion is bearing false witness against catholics.
 

Ronald Nolette

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OK, here we go.

The current mitre was actually invented by Ignatius Kea in the 12th Century. Kea was a Bishop’s secretary responsible for packing the Bishop’s vestments and three mitres when his bishop went on tours of his diocese. As the round turban type of mitre was very bulky this caused him big problems. One night he had a vision of the future where furniture was disassembled for transportation and then re-assembled. It gave him the idea for a collapsible mitre. It became very popular with other bishop’s secretaries and the I.Kea flat pack mitre became the standard issue. (see note 1)

Note1:- This is not currently true as I made it up. However if I post it on enough web sites it will eventually become true.

So still waiting for you r honest not made up answer.
 

Ronald Nolette

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You presented a couple of videos from an anti-Catholic minister.
Give me unbiased historical references - not ignorant anti-Catholic yahoos.

CAN you do that?
Yeah, I didn't think so . . .


Well for you we know that if it says anything negative about Romanism you will just slam it as anti-Catholic bias.

and for the record so you don't make another unfounded accustion against me, I am not anti-catholic, I am anti-catholicism. And teh biggest reason I am is that like some protestant denominations they are guilty of Gal. 1:8

ALL THE REST IS MINOR COMPARED TO THIS BIG ONE!!!
 

Ronald Nolette

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OK, I don't know.
Do tell me.


Well finally!

Why is The Pope's Mitre Shaped Like a Fish? - Auricmedia - Blogman's Wonderland

Why is The Pope's Mitre Shaped Like a Fish? (bibliotecapleyades.net)

“The most prominent form of worship in Babylon was dedicated to Dagon, later known as Ichthys, or the fish. In Chaldean times, the head of the church was the representative of Dagon, he was considered to be infallible, and was addressed as ‘Your Holiness’. Nations subdued by Babylon had to kiss the ring and slipper of the Babylonian god-king. The same powers and the same titles are claimed to this day by the Dalai Lama of Buddhism, and the Pope. Moreover, the vestments of paganism, the fish mitre and robes of the priests of Dagon are worn by the Catholic bishops, cardinals and popes.
-The Wine of Babylon; Pg 9

history - Is the pope's headgear adopted directly from a Mesopotamian hat, symbol of worshipping Dagon, as seen in his fish mouth looking mitre? - Skeptics Stack Exchange

What is the origin of the bishop's mitre? - Answers

I attempted to intentionally leave out any reference to Hislop for your benefit and blood presssure.
 

Ronald Nolette

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No, but I saw your claim. Can you back it up?


Well first let me apologize. I attributed it to the Britannica . I was in error. I conflated the info about Saturnalia and sol- Invictus and kalneds and wrongly trhought it was about nimrod and semiramis. I apologize.

But as for nimrod and semiramis being together?

Nimrod met Semiramis, who according to tradition was a brothel keeper, as he was conquering the area of Mesopotamia and the seven cities. Nimrod made Semiramis his queen and in order to hide that she was a prostitute, they created a story that she was a virgin that sprung up from the sea when Nimrod came ashore on his conquest of the area.
Semiramis and Nimrod Met And Built The Babylonian Empire
christianitybeliefs.org/thefuelproject/semiramis-and-nimrod-built-the-babylonian-em

Semiramis and Nimrod Met And Built The Babylonian Empire (christianitybeliefs.org)

Nimrod and Semiramis.pdf (watchmenministry.org)

Eusebius the greek historian (you alter ego bread of life probably does not consider him a "qualified" historic scholar) also wrote that nimrod and semiramis were married.

more on this later, but this is an adequate start. You will not find this in an encyclopedia because those are not designed to go into the mystic and spiritual realms.
 

Mungo

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Well finally!

Why is The Pope's Mitre Shaped Like a Fish? - Auricmedia - Blogman's Wonderland

Why is The Pope's Mitre Shaped Like a Fish? (bibliotecapleyades.net)

“The most prominent form of worship in Babylon was dedicated to Dagon, later known as Ichthys, or the fish. In Chaldean times, the head of the church was the representative of Dagon, he was considered to be infallible, and was addressed as ‘Your Holiness’. Nations subdued by Babylon had to kiss the ring and slipper of the Babylonian god-king. The same powers and the same titles are claimed to this day by the Dalai Lama of Buddhism, and the Pope. Moreover, the vestments of paganism, the fish mitre and robes of the priests of Dagon are worn by the Catholic bishops, cardinals and popes.
-The Wine of Babylon; Pg 9

history - Is the pope's headgear adopted directly from a Mesopotamian hat, symbol of worshipping Dagon, as seen in his fish mouth looking mitre? - Skeptics Stack Exchange

What is the origin of the bishop's mitre? - Answers

I attempted to intentionally leave out any reference to Hislop for your benefit and blood presssure.

I thought it would be some garbage like that.
Let's start the demolition:

1. Dagon was not a fish god.
According to the world renowned Encyclopaedia Brittanica, Dagan (Dagon) was the god of crop fertility, dagan being the Hebrew for “grain”.

Dagan, also spelled Dagon, West Semitic god of crop fertility, worshiped extensively throughout the ancient Middle East. Dagan was the Hebrew and Ugaritic common noun for “grain,” and the god Dagan was the legendary inventor of the plow. His cult is attested as early as about 2500 bc, and, according to texts found at Ras Shamra (ancient Ugarit), he was the father of the god Baal. Dagan had an important temple at Ras Shamra, and in Palestine, where he was particularly known as a god of the Philistines, he had several sanctuaries, including those at Beth-dagon in Asher (Joshua 19:27), Gaza (Judges 16:23), and Ashdod (1 Samuel 5:2–7).
Dagan | Semitic god

A possible etymology of the name Dagan from the West Semitic/Ugaritic root dgn, which can be translated as 'grain', and the Hebrew dāgōn, an archaic word for 'grain' (Black and Green 1998: 56), has tempted some scholars to assume that he played a role in vegetation/fertility, which might be confirmed by his son's, the West Semitic deity Ba'al, role as a vegetation deity (Black and Green 1998: 56). A 4th century AD tradition which places Dagan as a fish deity is erroneous (Black and Green 1998: 56).
Ancient Mesopotamian Gods and Goddesses - Dagan (god)


2. Ea (Greek Oannes) was the Mesopotamian fish god.
Again according to the world renowned Encyclopedia Brittanica, Ea (Greek Oannes) was the Mesopotamian fish god.

Oannes, in Mesopotamian mythology, an amphibious being who taught mankind wisdom. Oannes, as described by the Babylonian priest Berosus, had the form of a fish but with the head of a man under his fish’s head and under his fish’s tail the feet of a man. In the daytime he came up to the seashore of the Persian Gulf and instructed mankind in writing, the arts, and the sciences. Oannes was probably the emissary of Ea, god of the freshwater deep and of wisdom.
Oannes | Mesopotamian mythology


3. Not Babylon
The relief picture of the “fish god” most commonly shown is actually from the Assyrian city of Nineveh (not Babylon), and was discovered in the excavations of the 1840s by Austen Henry Layard. (see www.gutenberg.org/files/39897/39897-h/39897-h.htm)

4.
Similar does not mean equivalent.
It is the logical fallacy of Cum hoc ergo propter hoc (with this, therefore because of this). That there are similarities between two practices occurring at similar times does not mean that there is a causal link between them. This is even more ridiculous when the supposed common practices are at a distance in time and space.

5. Nineveh was destroyed, razed to the ground around 612 BC.
The mitre in its current form did not appear until the 12th century AD. It developed from a round headdress like the Jewish priestly turban & as worn today by Eastern Orthodox priests. There are therefore some 16 centuries between the destruction of Nineveh and the supposed appearance of the “fish mouth” shaped mitre.

6. No other similarity
No other similarity is presented between the supposed cult of Dagon and Catholic practices. The whole charge rests on this singular and highly fanciful similarity

For more information on Dagan see:
Ancient Mesopotamian Gods and Goddesses - Dagan (god)

The picture of "Dagan" in your links is the one produced in a report by the 19th century archaeologist Henry Layard who excavated Ninevah. It came from a bas-relief on a wall in the ruins. In his report he wrote:
“Unfortunately the upper part of all these figures had been destroyed, but as the lower remained from above the waist we can have no difficulty in restoring the whole, especially as the same image is seen entire on a fine Assyrian cylinder of agate in my possession.” (p284)
It was of course in black and white but some of the more inventive purveyors of this nonsense actually colour it in.
 

BreadOfLife

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Well as I didnt ask you about a bishops miter but mungo (unless you are mungo in disguise) you answer is moot.

So I take it seeing as you didn't cite any "credible" historic scholars, yo consider yourself one? How so?

YOu di dnot destroy it, you just cited encuclopedias using ancinet names and speculation. I assume you believe they are infallible?

Still waiting fo rthe following:
1. How one is determined a "credible" historic scholar by the question asked.
2. How I lied about Romanism

3. How I bore false witness to 1,000,000,000

Or are you just one who wishes to fling accusations in hope you won't be called to answer fo rthem.
It doesn't matter if YOU asked about the Bishop's miter.
HISLOP made this stupid charge and you agreed with him.

Do you understand that supporting a liar like Hislop makes YOU just as guilty of his lies? If you don't know this - then you don't know the Gospel. Lies are evil - no matter WHO they are against. The Bible WARNS against tis type of sin . . .
Isaiah 5:20

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

Good luck with that . . .
As for your questions in RED - I already told you . . .
1. UNbiased historical references - not anti-Catholic morons.
2. What is "Romanism"?? I belong to the Catholic Church.
3. You bore false witness by declaring Hislop's lies as truth.