No Pre-Trib Rapture, The Church Will Be Present On Earth To See The Tribulation And Second Coming

[marks]

The Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation, and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens, just as Luke 21:25-28 "Clearly" teaches below, there will be no pre-trib rapture as dispensationalism falsely teaches

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

While this will be true for those who are present after the rapture of the church, and after those who have died prior to it happening, it will not be true of those who are not there alive on the earth at that time.

You keep repeating that this clearly teaches the church will be present ding the great tribulation, it actually doesn't make any comment towards the catching up of those who are in Christ.

Much love!

 

[Truth7t7]

It's good to expand your knowledge beyond Strong's. As I said, apostasia has a strong pattern of usage as "rebellion". The word itself, apo, away from, and stao, I stand, in classical Greek, means "away from standing", that is, departure.

Much love!

You defy truth when it's before your face, in a Pre-Determined bias to maintain a pre-trib rapture, you cant be taken seriously.

(Apostasia) Is The Very "Root Word" For The English (Apostasy) Which Means Defection, Falling Away, Forsake, as you falsely suggest it's a pre-trib rapture of the Church to heaven, as Gods words of truth are bent and twisted to suit ones own needs, scary

Strong’s Definitions
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647: defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[Truth7t7]

If you make "the seal of the Living God" to be equal to "the Holy Spirit", then that would support your interpretation, but what supports that equality?

That both are seals? There are other seals in the Bible also. And, there are other ways people are marked to differentiate them according to their prospective fates, such as Ezekiel 9, where all those in Jerusalem who were to survive fall of Jerusalem were marked, and the rest killed.

This of course did not apply to others, and was specific to this instance. There is, by the same token, no indication in the Bible that "the seal of the Living God" is used at another time aside from these 144,000, or is there? Am I forgetting something here?

I think if anything is self-evident in the Bible, it's that God isn't going to subject His children to this plague. Personally, I find it unimaginable. Just the same, what I can't imagine doesn't change one way or another what the Bible says. But then it also says that these same 144,000 Israelites are "the servants of God". As we are also called servants of God, where does that leave us? I mean, we may be dead by then, but what of those who are not?

The very next thing John sees, turning from seeing earth to seeing the heavenly,

Revelation 7:9-10 KJV
9) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10) And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Much love!

You will closely note, you maintain complete silence on Revelation 22:3-4 below, and the saints in the Eternal Kingdom having God's name in their foreheads, willful disregard

You disregard Gods words of truth, in desperate attempts in Pre-Determined bias to maintain a pre-trib rapture of the Church to heaven, you cant be taken seriously

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Ephesians 1:13, 4:30, Revelation 22:3-4

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

All Believers Are Sealed, And Have The Name Of God The Lamb

Revelation 22:3-4KJV
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

 

[marks]

You defy truth when it's before your face, in a Pre-Determined bias to maintain a pre-trib rapture, you cant be taken seriously.

You attack what you do not understand.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You will closely note, you maintain complete silence on Revelation 22:3-4 below, and the saints in the Eternal Kingdom having God's name in their foreheads, willful disregard

If you wish to equate "the seal of the Living God" as carried by an angel with "His Name will be in their foreheads", then you do so without any Scriptural authority to do so.

The Bible takes pains to call this differently. And again, this seal is carried by an angel. It seems to me that all believers will have His name written in our foreheads, and this particular 144,000 will have the seal of the Living God brought by and angel, and by angels sealed with this seal.

Our sealing is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, something very different.

There are no Scriptures making them the same thing, and in Scripture these are called different things, and spoken of in very different ways.

And ascribe motives if you wish, you simply display to me your ignorance of me. So there ya' go!

Much love!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Nowhere are the saints of God promised they would not suffer in this world. All of the suffering in this world by men has come from God's wrath directed at men.

Pain and suffering has been our history. Wars, famine, pestilence a d death. Everyone dies, sometimes horribly. We are punished, chastised and yes we see God's wrath against evil at times. But the Great Tribulation is like no other time, up to 5 billion people will die and quite quickly for most. Will we stand by and watch? This is severe judgement. To the faithful church He promises
"Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." REV. 3:10

For example, I believe God demonstrates His wrath towards wicked men on earth presently through storms, through natural disasters, through viruses, through wars, etc. But the Church goes through these times, and through these negative experiences not because God's wrath is directed at *us,* but only because like His Son we have to be here as witnesses to the means of repentance and forgiveness. We also are here to testify against the sins of men that bring these horrible experiences down upon the innocent.

WHAT we have seen in history is mild compared to what is coming.

 

[Truth7t7]

If you wish to equate "the seal of the Living God" as carried by an angel with "His Name will be in their foreheads", then you do so without any Scriptural authority to do so.

The Bible takes pains to call this differently. And again, this seal is carried by an angel. It seems to me that all believers will have His name written in our foreheads, and this particular 144,000 will have the seal of the Living God brought by and angel, and by angels sealed with this seal.

Our sealing is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, something very different.

There are no Scriptures making them the same thing, and in Scripture these are called different things, and spoken of in very different ways.

And ascribe motives if you wish, you simply display to me your ignorance of me. So there ya' go!

Much love!

It's my opinion your claim is false in man's opinions regarding the seal seen in Revelation 9:3-6

It's my observation of scripture God has one seal, that being the Holy Spirit, not a physical mark, but a spiritual sealing, the forehead being representative of man's soul and mind

You move in a pre-determined bias to maintain a pre-trib rapture, it's that simple

 

[Truth7t7]

Pain and suffering has been our history. Wars, famine, pestilence a d death. Everyone dies, sometimes horribly. We are punished, chastised and yes we see God's wrath against evil at times. But the Great Tribulation is like no other time, up to 5 billion people will die and quite quickly for most. Will we stand by and watch? This is severe judgement. To the faithful church He promises
"Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." REV. 3:10


WHAT we have seen in history is mild compared to what is coming.

The (Two Witnesses) Of Revelation Chapter 11 Will Be Before The Antichrist His Entire Time In Jerusalem, 1260 days, or 42 months, bringing all plagues as Often as they will, a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

"God's In Control, Not The Antichrist Or World"

Revelation 11:3-6KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

"Let Your Ears Hear" Gods divine protection of the Church, Those That Move To Jail Will Be Jailed, And Those That Kill Will Be Killed!

(Here Is The Patience And The Faith Of The Saints)

Revelation 13:9-10KJV
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Only Those Without Gods Seal Of The Holy Spirit Will Be Tormented

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Revelation 16:2-4KJV
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

The Tormented World Will Worship Before The Churches Feet, Read It Before Your Eyes

Revelation 3:9-10KJV
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Luke 21:17-19KJV
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Pain and suffering has been our history. Wars, famine, pestilence a d death. Everyone dies, sometimes horribly. We are punished, chastised and yes we see God's wrath against evil at times. But the Great Tribulation is like no other time, up to 5 billion people will die and quite quickly for most. Will we stand by and watch? This is severe judgement. To the faithful church He promises
"Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." REV. 3:10


WHAT we have seen in history is mild compared to what is coming.

I hear Pretribbers say this all the time, because they have a vested interest in painting the "Tribulation" period as the "worst in history." They are depicting that period of time, which they say is "7 years," as the "Wrath of God," so as to prove that the Church must be raptured in advance so as to not experience the Wrath of God.

The Bible says that the Church was not destined for Wrath, but for Salvation. Therefore, they say, the Church cannot be in the "Tribulation," because it is the most terrible time in history, when God pours out His wrath.

Well, that's not entirely true. It is true that the last 3.5 years of current history will end in Armageddon. And it is true the divine judgments are already being poured out every day upon a sinful world. But some awful, awful things have happened in history. If anything, this last-day scenario will just be more of the same. Who are we to compare suffering of Jews under Hitler with the suffering of Christians under Antichrist? Suffering is suffering!

So I think the emphasis is all wrong. The dreadful thing about the last day judgments are their finality, the fact that they lead to eternal judgment. But of course, this has been true throughout history. Whenever someone dies under the judgment of God they will be judged for all eternity.

But the last day judgment ends all opportunity for the world, because they will be entering into a new age. Many people will have to die, in very high numbers, to prepare the world to enter into a new age. In that sense, Armageddon will be terrible.

But often the punishment of Armageddon is stretched out to include and be confused with an entire 7 years of Antichristian rule. I think he rules only 3.5 years but regardless, the destruction of Antichrist and the wrath of God poured out against him only happens at the end of this period. The innocents who die at this time won't die in any greater misery than anybody who's ever died!

But we constantly get this confusion of God's Wrath with the Reign of Antichrist, and they just aren't the same thing. This period of time is *not* "God's Wrath!" It is the time when the final outpouring of God's Wrath will take place, and it will largely take place at the end of this period. Still, God's wrath has been poured out throughout the history of Man, back as far as the Flood of Noah. This is nothing new, except that it takes place on a global scale--probably WW3.

Incidentally, the very people who claim, outright, that the Bible teaches the saints *cannot* experience God's Wrath in the Great Tribulation elsewhere admit that saints are actually *in* the Tribulation Period, suffering the persecutions of Antichrist. Inconsistent? I think so! ;)

 

[Randy Kluth]

As if I'm unrealistic, and thin skinned? Is that what you think?







Are you seeing how you continue in personal comments?

Much love!

Yes, I speak of "personal" things because I don't just want to be academic in discussions. I hope you are the same. You said you wanted to move on, so let's do that?

 

[marks]

You move in a pre-determined bias to maintain a pre-trib rapture, it's that simple

That would be another of those 'opinions'.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

If you make "the seal of the Living God" to be equal to "the Holy Spirit", then that would support your interpretation, but what supports that equality?

That both are seals? There are other seals in the Bible also. And, there are other ways people are marked to differentiate them according to their prospective fates, such as Ezekiel 9, where all those in Jerusalem who were to survive fall of Jerusalem were marked, and the rest killed.

This of course did not apply to others, and was specific to this instance. There is, by the same token, no indication in the Bible that "the seal of the Living God" is used at another time aside from these 144,000, or is there? Am I forgetting something here?

I think if anything is self-evident in the Bible, it's that God isn't going to subject His children to this plague. Personally, I find it unimaginable. Just the same, what I can't imagine doesn't change one way or another what the Bible says. But then it also says that these same 144,000 Israelites are "the servants of God". As we are also called servants of God, where does that leave us? I mean, we may be dead by then, but what of those who are not?

The very next thing John sees, turning from seeing earth to seeing the heavenly,

Revelation 7:9-10 KJV
9) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10) And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Much love!

This shows the utter inconsistency of Pretribbers, who say, absolutely and without exception that the Church, or Christians, *cannot* go through a time of God's Wrath--they have to be raptured out of the earth. And in the very next instance they acknowledge that Christians, ie the Church, are on the earth suffering the opposition and persecution of the Antichrist!

If one cannot see the hypocrisy in this, I have to wonder how they manage it? I'm not calling anybody a liar or hypocritical in character--just holding to an inconsistent doctrine and in that particular sense acting in a hypocritical way.

So I ask, if Christians absolutely *cannot* be on the earth, because God doesn't let Christians suffer the time of His wrath, why does He then go against His word and let Christians suffer under Antichrist in the same period called "God's wrath?" Obviously, God's Wrath is not to be confused with this time period nor with the suffering of all people during this time period. It is strictly a time period when the *wicked* suffer God's punishments. Others may suffer the effects of these punishments without being the objects of God's wrath.

The Reign of Antichrist is not really to be equated with God's wrath. His Wrath falls upon Antichrist at the end of his reign, at Armageddon. Lesser instances of God's wrath take place all the time, every day--wherever there are grievous examples of human sin that men refuse to repent of. Surely, some wrath will take place during the time of Antichrist's reign. But for the most part, "God's Wrath" refers to the outpouring of God's Wrath against him at the end of his reign, and especially at the Coming of Christ.

The Wrath of God we are saved from, as Christians, is eternal damnation--not the Tribulation Period! ;) Many people will die under God's judgment at the end of the age, and enter into eternal damnation. That's why this period is particularly associated with God's Wrath!

 

[marks]

Yes, I speak of "personal" things because I don't just want to be academic in discussions. I hope you are the same. You said you wanted to move on, so let's do that?

I've put in some Scriptural posts, feel free to comment.

:)

Much love!

 

[marks]

This shows the utter inconsistency of Pretribbers, who say, absolutely and without exception that the Church, or Christians, *cannot* go through a time of God's Wrath--they have to be raptured out of the earth. And in the very next instance they acknowledge that Christians, ie the Church, are on the earth suffering the opposition and persecution of the Antichrist!

If you want to make my arguments for me, and then call them inconsistent, I'll leave you to it.

Much love!

 

[Truth]

What happened to (Mountain Man Bob)?

I da know! never heard of that person, I started on here in 2017, I stopped a while after my Wife Passed, I show up once in a while to see if there are any Intresting subjects, too much critical behaver here, I am what the Church calls legelistic! Judaizer, So I do still go to a sunday church, only because I believe there a true believers there, and it does not interfere with the Sabbath I keep, I do not have the Luxury of discarding any believer just because we do not see eye to eye, I did not choose the Family God gave Me, and I am not going to withold the Love of God in me, from other believers, Oh what would happen if we all just began to put aside our differances and came together in the unity of the bond of Peace! Stand together on our common Ground, Yashua { Jesus} it is all about HIM!
Shalom Peace in the Love Of Our Creator!

 

[Randy Kluth]

If you want to make my arguments for me, and then call them inconsistent, I'll leave you to it.

Much love!

Would you like to try to respond to the arguments, or do you have no answers? Most people can see the problem I'm posing. God says Christians cannot suffer the Tribulation Period because it's "God's Wrath." Christians are portrayed as suffering under Antichrist during that period of time. Any response to that?

 

[Randy Kluth]

I da know! never heard of that person, I started on here in 2017, I stopped a while after my Wife Passed, I show up once in a while to see if there are any Intresting subjects, too much critical behaver here, I am what the Church calls legelistic! Judaizer, So I do still go to a sunday church, only because I believe there a true believers there, and it does not interfere with the Sabbath I keep, I do not have the Luxury of discarding any believer just because we do not see eye to eye, I did not choose the Family God gave Me, and I am not going to withold the Love of God in me, from other believers, Oh what would happen if we all just began to put aside our differances and came together in the unity of the bond of Peace! Stand together on our common Ground, Yashua { Jesus} it is all about HIM!
Shalom Peace in the Love Of Our Creator!

We are all at different levels of maturity. There is no final solution to the problem of divisive behavior. We just have to be tolerant, patient, and try to return love for anger and accusation. We can only manage ourselves, and try to respectfully encourage others to do the same.

 

[Truth7t7]

I da know! never heard of that person, I started on here in 2017, I stopped a while after my Wife Passed, I show up once in a while to see if there are any Intresting subjects, too much critical behaver here, I am what the Church calls legelistic! Judaizer, So I do still go to a sunday church, only because I believe there a true believers there, and it does not interfere with the Sabbath I keep, I do not have the Luxury of discarding any believer just because we do not see eye to eye, I did not choose the Family God gave Me, and I am not going to withold the Love of God in me, from other believers, Oh what would happen if we all just began to put aside our differances and came together in the unity of the bond of Peace! Stand together on our common Ground, Yashua { Jesus} it is all about HIM!
Shalom Peace in the Love Of Our Creator!

Sorry to hear of your loss, hope all is well

Thanks for the response, I also observe the 7th day sabbath, and I dont proclaim a person is unsaved because of non-observance

 

[Truth7t7]

Who are we to compare suffering of Jews under Hitler with the suffering of Christians under Antichrist? Suffering is suffering!

So I think the emphasis is all wrong. The dreadful thing about the last day judgments are their finality, the fact that they lead to eternal judgment. But of course, this has been true throughout history. Whenever someone dies under the judgment of God they will be judged for all eternity.

But the last day judgment ends all opportunity for the world, because they will be entering into a new age. Many people will have to die, in very high numbers, to prepare the world to enter into a new age. In that sense, Armageddon will be terrible.

But often the punishment of Armageddon is stretched out to include and be confused with an entire 7 years of Antichristian rule. I think he rules only 3.5 years but regardless, the destruction of Antichrist and the wrath of God poured out against him only happens at the end of this period. The innocents who die at this time won't die in any greater misery than anybody who's ever died!

But we constantly get this confusion of God's Wrath with the Reign of Antichrist, and they just aren't the same thing. This period of time is *not* "God's Wrath!" It is the time when the final outpouring of God's Wrath will take place, and it will largely take place at the end of this period. Still, God's wrath has been poured out throughout the history of Man, back as far as the Flood of Noah. This is nothing new, except that it takes place on a global scale--probably WW3.

Incidentally, the very people who claim, outright, that the Bible teaches the saints *cannot* experience God's Wrath in the Great Tribulation elsewhere admit that saints are actually *in* the Tribulation Period, suffering the persecutions of Antichrist. Inconsistent? I think so! ;)

The (Two Witnesses) Of Revelation Chapter 11 Will Be Before The Antichrist His Entire Time In Jerusalem, 1260 days, or 42 months, bringing all plagues as Often as they will, a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

"God's In Control, Not The Antichrist Or World"

Revelation 11:3-6KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

"Let Your Ears Hear" Gods divine protection of the Church, Those That Move To Jail Will Be Jailed, And Those That Kill Will Be Killed!

(Here Is The Patience And The Faith Of The Saints)

Revelation 13:9-10KJV
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Only Those Without Gods Seal Of The Holy Spirit Will Be Tormented

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Revelation 16:2-4KJV
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

The Tormented World Will Worship Before The Churches Feet, Read It Before Your Eyes

Revelation 3:9-10KJV
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Luke 21:17-19KJV
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I hear Pretribbers say this all the time, because they have a vested interest in painting the "Tribulation" period as the "worst in history."

I think it will be. I did mention I'm not Pre-trib though.
Mid-trib/per-wrath.

I think he rules only 3.5 years but regardless, the destruction of Antichrist and the wrath of God poured out against him only happens at the end of this period

Agree. The wrath portion may only last 40 days. ?