I'm Pretty Sure That Jesus Wasn't Talking About This

[amadeus]

So then I guess I'm afraid that I don't get your point. :

No, but you start threads with controversial questions like this not prepared for someone posting with really radically different viewpoints from your own. Is that person automatically the bad guy the enemy? Your answer should be, No!
Jesus loves Democrats!
Jesus loves pro-abortionists!
When slavery was legal here, Jesus loved slave owners!
Have any of us walked in the shoes of those we consider our opponents or our enemies?
Do we really understand what Jesus meant when he told us to love our enemies?

Hating and condemning can be an easy way to go... or so it may seem. Try to be like Jesus and love the worst of the worst!

As Jesus hung on the cross dying and in excruciating pain from the spikes they had driven with a hammer into his hands and his feet he said...

"Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

Are we not at least on the approach to such an attitude?

When are those soft sweet smelling flowers coming to us for us to appreciate and love? Perhaps in this world of men only the opposite will be received. Lots of people died for God in the Roman arenas or in the German concentration camps. Are we hoping and praying for the best, but ready always for the worst? We do not know our future in this world. We do not know what tomorrow will bring?

 

[amadeus]

 

[JazzyJeff15]

No, but you start threads with controversial questions like this not prepared for someone posting with really radically different viewpoints from your own. Is that person automatically the bad guy the enemy? Your answer should be, No!
Jesus loves Democrats!
Jesus loves pro-abortionists!
When slavery was legal here, Jesus loved slave owners!
Have any of us walked in the shoes of those we consider our opponents or our enemies?
Do we really understand what Jesus meant when he told us to love our enemies?

Hating and condemning can be an easy way to go... or so it may seem. Try to be like Jesus and love the worst of the worst!

As Jesus hung on the cross dying and in excruciating pain from the spikes they had driven with a hammer into his hands and his feet he said...

"Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

Are we not at least on the approach to such an attitude?

When are those soft sweet smelling flowers coming to us for us to appreciate and love? Perhaps in this world of men only the opposite will be received. Lots of people died for God in the Roman arenas or in the German concentration camps. Are we hoping and praying for the best, but ready always for the worst? We do not know our future in this world. We do not know what tomorrow will bring?

I appreciate you taking the time to post this and your other posts as well. The Lord has blessed you with wisdom and much can be learned from you

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Our first president venerated by nearly everyone of his time that mattered and many people today was a slave owner and never came out against slavery. That was OK for him and for others... But did anyone ask for the slaves' opinions?

I don’t think this is correct, Amadeus.

 

[quietthinker]

And when and if we both want and need to know other understandings according to God, He will share them with us!

He has shared them. It is Jesus who reveals the truth of what God is really like. The difficulty is, men have created a Jesus/God who is in line with their own values, one which they defend to the death.

 

[quietthinker]

No I am quoting scripture....why do some Christians have trouble with scriptures. You quote scriptures for the OSAS people and it is "Oh my God you are quoting from the legalist part of the Bible!"


I have corrected you once already. Do not put words in my mouth...I will spit them back at you.
I said God has never been a pacifist. He has not changed.

quoting scripture out of context or with a skewed paradigm justifies nothing. What it does if anything is make a God out of scripture.

 

[amadeus]

I don’t think this is correct, Amadeus.

I did not look up anything for my post sister. It is possible I may have forgotten the precise details on certain presidents. It has been a few years since I did a study on them. Generally speaking, they all were fallible people, like us. The best of them was never as 'great' as we were sometimes led to believe in our formal schooling. There was greatness in many of them to be certain, but different people looking at them will see different things as great or as evil. What God sees is certainly a very different matter.

I mentioned them for background for everyone. I have seen no presidents in my lifetime based on performance I would consider great. Richard Nixon did some good things as a president, but I totally disliked what I knew about him as an individual aside from his presidency.

 

[GracePeace]

You said it. :)
Peter's violence in Gethsemene occurred when?

I'm not sure where you're going with this, but my view remains unchanged : Jesus rebuked Peter for that so it isn't something we should follow.

Try this on if you will.
The NT tells us of Jesus' birth.
Thirty years later it tells us of Jesus being Baptized and beginning his ministry.
What happened to 30 years of information pertaining to his life?

The point being, if Jesus and his apostles were passivists, remembering Jesus is the same God of the OT, why did he tell his disciples to arm themselves? Even if they had to sell something to afford the most formidable weapon of their time, the sword.

We already know how they did not interpret those words : Jesus rebuked Peter for using the sword for violence, and all the Apostles, except John, were martyred and ordered no violent resistance. Also, Paul was stoned, and there was no mention of defending him with swords nor with avenging him with swords (or by any means at all). Paul was also beaten with rods many times and there was no call to defend him using violence mentioned. No doctrine anywhere either.

Peter didn't cleave the ear off the temple guard using harsh language. And a deft stroke like that, cleaving just the ear from the side of the guards head, is skill arrived at through practice

Jesus said Peter was wrong for doing that.
I addressed this a long time ago, but you're acting as if I didn't.

Jesus cleared the temple of the money changers using a whip he fashioned with his own hands.

Yup.
1. That's a completely different scenario than "violent self-defense" in general life, which is the topic of this thread.
2. These religious leaders were corrupting Jesus's "Father's business", and right on the most holy place on earth, and the Scripture said about Jesus "zeal for Your House has consumed Me". Maybe if you find religious leaders who are corrupt, misrepresenting God, and who are ripping your congregation off, or getting in between them and God, maybe you can force them out of your congregation too.

There are those who insist, staying with the idea Jesus and his Disciples were Passivists, that the scriptures never report he actually struck anyone.
Then why fashion a whip? When, with the power of God within him, Jesus could have spoken and cleared the temple.
But he used violence instead. What? He fashioned a whip with his own hands just to appear threatening?

The point being, we can't say passivity is the message of Christ when he and his disciples exhibited the opposite.

I believe I've established otherwise.

 

[amadeus]

He has shared them. It is Jesus who reveals the truth of what God is really like. The difficulty is, men have created a Jesus/God who is in line with their own values, one which they defend to the death.

This is a very unfortunate thing which, I believe, many cannot see in themselves and rarely try to find. It is one of the worst things about OSAS. People will stop surrendering to Him AGAIN, taking for granted that to do it again is a wasted motion. God does not make anyone surrender at all. I see a need to keep on surrendering, daily or more often so that God can come through our door daily or more often and work on repairing or replacing things within us as needed. God alone always knows what is needed. People too often get to thinking that their needs, or worse their wants, are equal to what God sees as needs. God help us all!

 

[amadeus]

quoting scripture out of context or with a skewed paradigm justifies nothing. What it does if anything is make a God out of scripture.

Lots of people do just that. It is a sword which cuts two ways. If we are unskilled in its use, we can hurt or kill someone. Moses wrote ''Thou shalt not kill", but Solomon wrote that "wisdom has killed its beasts". Both were written as God inspired them. People may be confused, but God is not. He gave us the solution.

"This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Do not His sheep hear His voice rather than the voice of strangers? [see John 10:3-7]
Who are His sheep then?

 

[April_Rose]

Jesus loves Democrats!
Jesus loves pro-abortionists!
When slavery was legal here, Jesus loved slave owners!
Have any of us walked in the shoes of those we consider our opponents or our enemies?
Do we really understand what Jesus meant when he told us to love our enemies?

I never said that Jesus didn't love them, but when I see sinful behavior I claim it as such.

 

[Amazed@grace]

I'm not sure where you're going with this, but my view remains unchanged : Jesus rebuked Peter for that so it isn't something we should follow.

No, Jesus rebuked peter because Jesus arrest was necessary to accomplish Jesus mission.

We already know how they did not interpret those words : Jesus rebuked Peter for using the sword for violence, and all the Apostles, except John, were martyred and ordered no violent resistance. Also, Paul was stoned, and there was no mention of defending him with swords nor with avenging him with swords (or by any means at all).

Jesus said Peter was wrong for doing that.
I addressed this a long time ago, but you're acting as if I didn't.


Yup.
1. That's a completely different scenario than "violent self-defense" in general life, which is the topic of this thread.
2. These religious leaders were corrupting Jesus's "Father's business", and the Scripture said about Jesus "zeal for Your House has consumed Me". Maybe if you find religious leaders who are corrupt, misrepresenting God, and who are ripping your church off, or getting in between them and God, maybe you can force them out of your church too.


I believe I've established otherwise.

And you are free to believe that.

It isn't irrelevant that Peter was armed in the first place because Jesus had told his apostles to buy swords.
And just as 30 years of Jesus life is omitted from the gospels, what does appear with Jesus commanding purchase of weapons is enough to wholly refute the idea Jesus and his apostles were strong passivists.

God does not change.

You think God, who killed the first born of Egypt, sent bears to destroy children for making fun of a prophet on Sabbath, commanded his Hebrew army to slaughter all life in the village of the Amalekites, as Jesus was passive? And wanted us to be too?
When he ordered his chosen people all through the OT committed mass murder in his name and under his orders?

Who do you think gave the edict in the OT, eye for an eye?
In the new God changed his mind?

By the way, Christians are in the armed military and are on the armed police force.
And each of those offices in the U.S executive branch also have chaplains employed.
Are they not Christians?

 

[amadeus]

I never said that Jesus didn't love them, but when I see sinful behavior I claim it as such.

Sister, Jesus does indeed love them, but we must also love them. Look to I Corinthians 13:4-7 for what it means to love. Then look to Matt 7:1-5 before opening your mouth to judge anyone else no matter what it is you believe you see. There is a time speak, but also there is a time to be silent [Ecc. Chapt 3]. God knows the when for each. Do we always? Have you ever spoken when it would have been better to remain silent? I certainly have.

 

[April_Rose]

Yes,.. but Kamala Harris pushes all of my buttons. She doesn't respect the military and she doesn't respect our rights!!!!

 

[GracePeace]

No, Jesus rebuked peter because Jesus arrest was necessary to accomplish Jesus mission.

That's not what the text says. It says "because who ever lives by the sword will die by the sword"--a rule that continued in effect over the Apostles lifetimes, which explains why they never used violence.

And you are free to believe that.

"Believe" history?

It isn't irrelevant that Peter was armed in the first place because Jesus had told his apostles to buy swords.
And just as 30 years of Jesus life is omitted from the gospels, what does appear with Jesus commanding purchase of weapons is enough to wholly refute the idea Jesus and his apostles were strong passivists.

We already know how they did not interpret Jesus's Words.

God does not change

Yeah, God doesn't change--He is always a righteous Judge, and gives different righteous judgments at different times (eg, Jesus repudiated the Torah many times in Matthew 5 and in Matthew 19--clearly "God doesn't change" doesn't mean what you are wanting it to mean here).

You think God, who killed the first born of Egypt, sent bears to destroy children for making fun of a prophet on Sabbath, commanded his Hebrew army to slaughter all life in the village of the Amalekites, as Jesus was passive? And wanted us to be too?
When he ordered his chosen people all through the OT committed mass murder in his name and under his orders?

Who do you think gave the edict in the OT, eye for an eye?
In the new God changed his mind?

By the way, Christians are in the armed military and are on the armed police force.
And each of those offices in the U.S executive branch also have chaplains employed.
Are they not Christians?

1. Actually, Jesus explicitly repudiated the "eye for eye". I told you about this already I believe.
2. When James and John asked Jesus if He wanted them to call fire down from heaven on people who were not submissive to the Word of God, Jesus said You do not know what manner of spirit you are of denouncing their ideas.

 

[GracePeace]

It isn't irrelevant that Peter was armed in the first place because Jesus had told his apostles to buy swords.

Jesus specified "For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me: ‘AND HE WAS COUNTED WITH WRONGDOERS’; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment.” Some claim He said to buy swords so that the Scripture could be fulfilled that "He was counted among the wrongdoers". HOW EVER it is explained, we know how they did not interpret His Words--they never committed violence.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Lincoln, if you read everything about him, and all of his quotes, was anti slavery in any form. He said he was anti slavery and could never remember a time when he wasn’t.

 

[Grailhunter]

Jesus loves Democrats!
Jesus loves pro-abortionists!
When slavery was legal here, Jesus loved slave owners!

Jesus loves Democrats!
Jesus loves pro-abortionists!
When slavery was legal here, Jesus loved slave owners!
LOL LOL So does Satan!

Hating and condemning can be an easy way to go... or so it may seem. Try to be like Jesus and love the worst of the worst!

Be like Jesus! So be it!
Matthew 12:34
You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

Matthew 23:33
You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

1st Corinthians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?

We be in good company!

 

[Amazed@grace]

Jesus specified "For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me: ‘AND HE WAS COUNTED WITH WRONGDOERS’; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment.” Some claim He said to buy swords so that the Scripture could be fulfilled that "He was counted among the wrongdoers". HOW EVER it is explained, we know how they did not interpret His Words--they never committed violence.

We know a temple guard who would refute that.
And we know there are money changers who would testify their rabbi, master, chased them from in front of his ( father's) house brandishing a whip fashioned by his own hand.

 

[April_Rose]

You know even Jesus hates all that is evil.