WOMEN ARE TO KEEP SILENT IN THE CHURCH

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Scott Downey

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Pastor at the time had all sorts of ideas about how it was ok and good thing to do to go against the scripture. Like we are not under the law but grace, etc.... and no one raised any fuss about it.

Can I ask was this pastor saying that the four gospels were not for us to obey but we should obey the epistles of Paul in this dispensation?
Not that I heard from him.
I always thought him appointing her an elder was church politics. It struck me as odd that not a single elder raised any objections, or if they did, they did not tell us, especially as at least one of them was so bible centric, how scripture is the perfect standard to follow, and was always very conservative. He died of a really bad case of cancer. The elders also liked the youth pastor for taking over and he is almost full preterist, taught the youth all of revelation is fulfilled with destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and we are living in the new earth and new heavens, and that there is no coming sudden destruction when Christ returns, it already happened in 70 AD. I outright told him his doctrine did not fit the scriptures. He claimed Christ had returned in 70AD, there was no coming Great Tribulation, although he did say Christ was coming again in the future. Just odd, really odd.
 

Doug

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Not that I heard from him.
I always thought him appointing her an elder was church politics. It struck me as odd that not a single elder raised any objections, or if they did, they did not tell us, especially as at least one of them was so bible centric, how scripture is the perfect standard to follow, and was always very conservative. He died of a really bad case of cancer. The elders also liked the youth pastor for taking over and he is almost full preterist, taught the youth all of revelation is fulfilled with destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and we are living in the new earth and new heavens, and that there is no coming sudden destruction when Christ returns, it already happened in 70 AD. I outright told him his doctrine did not fit the scriptures. He claimed Christ had returned in 70AD, there was no coming Great Tribulation, although he did say Christ was coming again in the future. Just odd, really odd.
Yes that was odd and not scriptural
I was just wondering if he might have been teaching right division
I hold to right division of the Word
The 4 gospels and Acts til Acts 9 was the dispensation of God toward Israel and reconciling the earth
What was commanded to Israel does not always apply us in this dispensation
To Paul was revealed the mystery in which God was reconciling heaven and earth by the Body of Christ
Paul gives commands from the Lord for us today in the Body of Christ the church

Good talking to you Bro

Let me say we have the gift of God unto salvation by believing the gospel that Christ died for our sins was buried and rose again for our rustication
We have Christ's imputed righteousness
Any questions about right division ask
 
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Behold

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I've seen the identical thing happen to a non-Christian teenager who had Christian friends who brought her to a youth group. In a circle around her, they were all praying in tongues,

Yes ive seen this same fake nonsense in an Assembly of God church...also.

Just to worst type of pretending.... carnal junk.

Like this.

These "fakirs" take teens into a back room, and say to them, now we are going to get you start using your tongues.. .so, you control this... and we want you to start making the noise and just let the spirit flow out of your mouth.....

Like this....

"Hosta la shanda....Hosta la shanda........ Now....go ahead.....start saying............Hosta....Hosta....Hosta la shanda'......Hosta la shan da".


So, See this GARBAGE?
That is what you are connected with and its shameful .....it really is.
 

Behold

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Not just Jews, but unsaved Corinthians and other Gentiles. Are tongues a positive sign, or a negative sign? 1 Cor. 14:22-23

"Tongues are for a sign" "The Jews require a sign"..

So, the confusion is...

"Prayer language" that is what you are talking about, vs "The Gift of Tongues" that is not a prayer language.

So, Pentecostals are always confused about this, and so that is why there is so much confusion about it.
 

Doug

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1Cor 14:34 . . Let the women keep silent in the churches; for they are not
permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the Law also
says.

It could be argued, with some merit, that this rule applies only to tongues
and prophecy; but Paul expanded its scope in a letter to his friend Timothy.

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman
to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam
was first formed, then Eve." (1Tim 2:11-13)

It's important to note that this is neither a gender issue, nor a competence
issue, an intelligence, nor a maturity issue when it's so obviously a
primogeniture issue. For that reason it's an act of contempt for one's betters
when Christian women step up to govern Christian men in a Christian
congregation.


FAQ: What about women like Anne Graham Lotz and/or Tara-Leigh Cobble?
Aren't they out of order?


REPLY: The instructions are limited to congregational meetings. They don't
include public venue's, e.g. forums, town squares, street corners, coliseums,
stadiums, convention centers, radio, television, or social media like YouTube
and Facebook.


FAQ: What about Deborah in the old testament book of Judges? Exactly how
was she an exception to the rule, if indeed she was?


REPLY: Things are quite a bit different now with Christ at the helm, i.e.
Christ's association with his church trumps Deborah's association with the
Jews. I do not recommend using her, or any other woman in the Bible, as an
excuse to circumvent Christ's instructions in matters pertaining to the
management of Christian congregations.


NOTE: Debbie was neither a priest nor a member of the Sanhedrin; her
involvement in the Jews' affairs was limited to her position as a judge, viz:
the Temple's sacred business was none of her business; that was strictly a
man's world.

* Paul appealed to "the law" as the basis for 1Cor 14:34. Normally when
Paul speaks of the law he's referring to the covenant that Moses' people
agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

Exactly where in the covenant that women are forbidden to speak in an
assembly I don't know. However, it's quite obvious that the covenant is very
sexist, i.e. women were not installed in either the priesthood or the
Sanhedrin.

Moses' law doesn't always specifically address certain things. Sometimes the
law's rules and procedures imply principles that we might call "the spirit of
the law". For example Jesus' critics were educated experts in the black and
white letter of the law relative to the weekly routine sabbath but they were
as illiterate as mannequins in regard to applying the spirit of the sabbath.
(e.g. Matt 12:1-13 & Mark 3:1-5)
_
● 1Cor 14:34 . . Let the women keep silent in the churches; for they are not
permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the Law also
says.

It could be argued, with some merit, that this rule applies only to tongues
and prophecy; but Paul expanded its scope in a letter to his friend Timothy.

The context of the commandment certainly applies to tongues but also applies to teaching or usurping the authority of men in the church as seen below

[1Ti 2:12 KJV] 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

There is no application in this verse regarding tongues as you noted

Exactly where in the covenant that women are forbidden to speak in an
assembly I don't know.

I dont know either but when Paul speaks of the law in 1 Cor 14:34

women were not installed in either the priesthood or the
Sanhedrin.

Good point
 

Doug

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Church leaders are to be MEN according to God's Word...

Women were created by the Lord to serve in a helper role not in a role of authority.
Only men can serve in a role of authority according to scripture.

Quote from - 1 Timothy 3:1-13
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desires a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife


Quote from - Titus 1:6-9
If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God


Quote from - 1 Timothy 2:12,13
I do not allow a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man

Related TRUTH from Scripture:

1 Corinthians 11:8,9
For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.


Genesis 2:18
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.


Concerning 1 Timothy 2:8-15
Paul gave two reasons, both of them are theological not cultural.

1. The created order: Adam was first created as an independent person, then Eve was created from his rib to be his helper. She was therefore not created to be independent of the man in authority.

2. Eve, and consequently all women, were placed under a penalty of the curse. This included pain in childbearing and that her husband would rule over her.
2. Eve, and consequently all women, were placed under a penalty of the curse. This included pain in childbearing and that her husband would rule over her.

[Gen 3:16 KJV] 16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Women would be sorrowed in childbearing

[1Ti 2:15 KJV] 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Could it be that God in mercy made provision for the decree by saving women in being alleviated in childbearing by teaching children the Word of God
 

1stCenturyLady

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Yes ive seen this same fake nonsense in an Assembly of God church...also.

Just to worst type of pretending.... carnal junk.

Like this.

These "fakirs" take teens into a back room, and say to them, now we are going to get you start using your tongues.. .so, you control this... and we want you to start making the noise and just let the spirit flow out of your mouth.....

Like this....

"Hosta la shanda....Hosta la shanda........ Now....go ahead.....start saying............Hosta....Hosta....Hosta la shanda'......Hosta la shan da".


So, See this GARBAGE?
That is what you are connected with and its shameful .....it really is.
What the girl heard was from God and very personal to her. She didn't know they were praying in tongues because all she heard was English. You can scoff, and I don't blame you, but what God said to her from the tongues and her interpretation changed her life and she became a Christian.

I know you argue that she couldn't possibly have received the gift of interpretation of tongues because she wasn't born again yet. I thought the same thing when I was writing my book on tongues, but God can use His gifts any way He wants too. Are you really going to tell God He can't give her the ability to hear what He is saying to her? You are going where angels fear to tread; and me too! I don't put God in a box. He does what He wants and He can use His gifts for drawing someone to Christ if He wants to. I'm not going to teach God what He can and can't do. All I can be sure of is He will not contradict His own inspired Word like 1 Cor. 14:2

I understand about fake tongues. I've heard them myself, and even spoke them for 6 years before actually becoming born again of the Spirit. After that when I spoke in tongues the following Sunday it was entirely different than when I was just speaking "by faith." But what those 6 years produced in me was the ability to recognize others speaking fake tongues. Because I don't know what I'm saying, I find I rarely speak in tongues now. I hear God's voice tell me His will and for me to repeat His words. I do, and He answers immediately.
 
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1stCenturyLady

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"Tongues are for a sign" "The Jews require a sign"..

So, the confusion is...

"Prayer language" that is what you are talking about, vs "The Gift of Tongues" that is not a prayer language.

So, Pentecostals are always confused about this, and so that is why there is so much confusion about it.
You are correct, the Gift of Tongues is not our prayer language. That is the sign of tongues. It is in Mark 16 and interpretation of tongues is not given for prayer and praise. However, in 1 Cor. 12, the similar gifts of tongues, does require interpretation because it is for the profit of all. And not everyone is given the gift, only the sign. But just because we are all given this authority for these signs in Mark 16:16-18, unbelief will squelch them dead. It was John Calvin who is the "father" of cessationism. His leavening the gospel spoils God's whole doctrine. They believe in a "different" Jesus.
 

DuckieLady

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What the girl heard was from God and very personal to her. She didn't know they were praying in tongues because all she heard was English. You can scoff, and I don't blame you, but what God said to her from the tongues and her interpretation changed her life and she became a Christian.

I know you argue that she couldn't possibly have received the gift of interpretation of tongues because she wasn't born again yet. I thought the same thing when I was writing my book on tongues, but God can use His gifts any way He wants too. Are you really going to tell God He can't give her the ability to hear what He is saying to her? You are going where angels fear to tread; and me too! I don't put God in a box. He does what He wants and He can use His gifts for drawing someone to Christ if He wants to. I'm not going to teach God what He can and can't do. All I can be sure of is He will not contradict His own inspired Word like 1 Cor. 14:2

I understand about fake tongues. I've heard them myself, and even spoke them for 6 years before actually becoming born again of the Spirit. After that when I spoke in tongues the following Sunday it was entirely different than when I was just speaking "by faith." But what those 6 years produced in me was the ability to recognize others speaking fake tongues. Because I don't know what I'm saying, I find I rarely speak in tongues now. I hear God's voice tell me His will and for me to repeat His words. I do, and He answers immediately.
I did this, too. I really wish I could tell you how angry I would have been to back up what I was taught. I was just as passionate about it as everyone else here. I understand their frustration.


I read it differently many years later when I realized there's a footnote on the bottom of the same page that leads to the verse in Isaiah that clears it up.

Isaiah 28:11

"By people of other languages and by the lips of foreigners, I will speak to this people; and even then, they will not listen to Me, says the Lord."

The sign was kind of a rebuke.
 

1stCenturyLady

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I did this, too. I really wish I could tell you how angry I would have been to back up what I was taught. I was just as passionate about it as everyone else here. I understand their frustration.


I read it differently many years later when I realized there's a footnote on the bottom of the same page that leads to the verse in Isaiah that clears it up.

Isaiah 28:11

"By people of other languages and by the lips of foreigners, I will speak to this people; and even then, they will not listen to Me, says the Lord."

The sign was kind of a rebuke.
To the Corinthians who are Greek I believe, read 1 Cor. 14:22 and 23 and let me know why Paul said that tongues is a sign to the unbelievers, not believers.
 

DuckieLady

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To the Corinthians who are Greek I believe, read 1 Cor. 14:22 and 23 and let me know why Paul said that tongues is a sign to the unbelievers, not believers.
Tongues as a sign for the unbelievers because it was a rebuke/miraculous sign to hear them speak to them being spoke to in their own language.

Prophecy is a clear message for the believers, in order to edify and build up the church.
 

1stCenturyLady

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Tongues as a sign for the unbelievers because it was a rebuke/miraculous sign to hear them speak to them being spoke to in their own language.

Prophecy is a clear message for the believers, in order to edify and build up the church.
God never does anything to contradict His word. Here is the rule:

2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

That means they couldn't understand the tongues naturally. Therefore........?
 
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3 Resurrections

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Eve, and consequently all women, were placed under a penalty of the curse. This included pain in childbearing and that her husband would rule over her.
That was NOT God's proscribed desire for Adam to rule over Eve. God was simply warning Eve of the disastrous results that sin would unfortunately bring to their marital union. It was not as God desired their marriage to be.

Look also at what would happen to Adam. The ground would be cursed for his sake, and he would eat from it in sorrow all the days of his life, with thorns and thistles growing. Adam would eat the herbs of the field (which he was already doing anyway, just as Eve was already equipped to give birth to children - just not as often as she would afterward).

Adam would eat bread in the sweat of his face until he returned to the ground in death, to return to dust.

Some questions for you. If God proscribed all these things to happen to Adam, why are any men entitled to use herbicides or fertilizing methods to grow more food? Is that not a sin to resist the growth of weeds, if God desired this and planned it that way?

And as for working with sweat, if any man tries to work in an air-conditioned room for comfort, he should be ashamed for trying to get out of one of the curses given to him by God. And any farmer that dares to take any joy out of growing crops should also repent for enjoying his labor in the fields. He should experience nothing but sorrow in the process.

And as for returning to the dust again, if God desired and planned that for us, then we have no business going to a doctor or using medication of ANY kind in order to prolong our lives. Shame on us!

And as for women having increased sorrow with increased conception, I suppose that means that no women should ever use any medication to reduce pain, if she is decreed to suffer in childbirth.

The idea that these curses were all God's recommendations is laughable. And that includes the rule that husbands tend to exercise over their wives. They should resist the temptation and fight against it - not double down on it as if it were a God-given recommendation.
 

quietthinker

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WOMEN ARE TO KEEP SILENT IN THE CHURCH​

So that others can hear the whistle blow
 
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Behold

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However, in 1 Cor. 12, the similar gifts of tongues, does require interpretation because it is for the profit of all.

I guess i dont have to tell you that what you are "into"... is only what Pentecostals worry about, and its because of Pentecostals obsessing on it, and not understanding it, that the confusion is created, .. so that is the product that the charismatics have given to the church, which is confusion regarding the least important thing of all.

'Imagine this...

A "tongue talker" dies, and meets Jesus ...

Jesus says.>>"so, what did you do for me"... "how many people did you lead to me'..... "how many poor did you help">..

And the Charismatic says....>>"well, Lord, i didnt lead anyone to Christ, and i didn't really think about the poor, but...i did spend 50 yrs trying to "get the infilling" while i tried to talk in tongues and get the interpretation... every Sunday before we were dismissed for lunch.".

= Useless.
 

DuckieLady

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God never does anything to contradict His word. Here is the rule:

2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

That means they couldn't understand the tongues naturally. Therefore........?
He's saying if you speak in tongues you're not helping the church because nobody understands you. It's better to prophecy.

Utters mysteries = nobody understands what you're saying

Not that it isn't a real language, but that nobody in that church understands it.
 

DuckieLady

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I guess i dont have to tell you that what you are "into"... is only what Pentecostals worry about, and its because of Pentecostals obsessing on it, and not understanding it, that the confusion is created, .. so that is the product that the charismatics have given to the church, which is confusion regarding the least important thing of all.

'Imagine this...

A "tongue talker" dies, and meets Jesus ...

Jesus says.>>"so, what did you do for me"... "how many people did you lead to me'..... "how many poor did you help">..

And the Charismatic says....>>"well, Lord, i didnt lead anyone to Christ, and i didn't really think about the poor, but...i did spend 50 yrs trying to "get the infilling" while i tried to talk in tongues and get the interpretation... every Sunday before we were dismissed for lunch.".

= Useless.
Coming from a partly Apostolic Pentecostal background, some of those churches will also tell you that you're not saved unless you speak in tongues.

Talk about pressure.
 

Behold

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Coming from a partly Apostolic Pentecostal background, some of those churches will also tell you that you're not saved unless you speak in tongues.

Talk about pressure.

They are lying.

See, those that you are describing are carnal babies.. who are worried about "gifts"... as babies only want a gift.

These people want to be perceived as "we have something you dont have"... and that is their GAME.
Its a carnal game of "we are special", and in fact they are confused, and they try to do that to you.... as you have discovered.

So, If you have a prayer language, then good for you........enjoy it.....let it edify you, and build you up.
If you do not...then that is very common.

The false teaching is that......>"if you dont have this, that we say you must have".

The fact is.. every CHRISTian has the Holy Spirit in them, as this is the proof you are born again, and Paul teaches that "if you have not the Spirit of God in you, then you are none of God's"'

So, if you have a day in your past that you KNOW you went to Jesus and trusted In Him to save you. with all your heart....then GOD DID, for eternity.

Now, dont chase spiritual gifts, as that is a rabbit hole and a time waste.
Instead, learn what Paul Teaches, as that is how you "work out your Salvation".
And once you are "as many as be perfect" by learning Paul's Doctrine perfectly, then God will take you somewhere, and if you need a Spiritual GIFT for this MISSION....whatever it is........then God will give it to you., AS NEEDED...for your ministry.
 
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DuckieLady

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They are lying.

See, those that you are describing are carnal babies.. who are worried about "gifts"... as babies only want a gift.

These people want to be perceived as "we have something you dont have"... and that is their GAME.
Its a carnal game of "we are special", and in fact they are confused, and they try to do that to you.... as you have discovered.

So, If you have a prayer language, then good for you........enjoy it.....let it edify you, and build you up.
If you do not...then that is very common.

The false teaching is that......>"if you dont have this, that we say you must have".

The fact is.. every CHRISTian has the Holy Spirit in them, as this is the proof you are born again, and Paul teaches that "if you have not the Spirit of God in you, then you are none of God's"'

So, if you have a day in your past that you KNOW you went to Jesus and trusted In Him to save you. with all your heart....then GOD DID, for eternity.

Now, dont chase spiritual gifts, as that is a rabbit hole and a time waste.
Instead, learn what Paul Teaches, as that is how you "work out your Salvation".
And once you are "as many as be perfect" by learning Paul's Doctrine perfectly, then God will take you somewhere, and if you need a Spiritual GIFT for this MISSION....whatever it is........then God will give it to you., AS NEEDED...for your ministry.
True. I don't do it anymore and I'm not part of that group now. I just mean I can recognize what other people are going through pretty easily.

Sometimes it's really difficult to see things through someone else's perspective. How are we supposed to lead people to one direction, unless we can be sensitive to the space their in now?

@Behold I remember you tried to convince me many years ago. You didn't convince me. I'll tell you why. God wanted to do it in his own way. But, I felt more beat down than lifted up, and more discouraged than heard. That's why we need to be patient with people.