3 Resurrections
Active Member
Tell that to "the elect lady" leading the assembly in her home that John commended in 2 John. John was giving her instructions as to whom she was to either receive or reject from joining that assembly (2 John 10).
WOMEN ARE TO KEEP SILENT IN THE CHURCH
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John was written to Israel and was not written by Paul to the church
The elect lady was never described
These verses do not nullify Paul
Women had a function in teaching just not in the local assembly
3 Resurrections
Active Member
This is false. John was not writing to Israel in 2 John. He was writing to the "elect lady" and the "children" of her assembly. These "children" were not her own bodily offspring, any more than John addressing the church members he was teaching as "my little children" was speaking to natural-born sons and daughters of John.
This "elect lady" (who was responsible for either admitting or refusing membership for those wishing to join her assembly) also had an "elect sister" leading another congregation. John was passing on greetings from one woman's assembly to another woman's assembly.
None of this disagrees with Paul, who laid out instructions for how Timothy was to pass on exhortation to elders of the flock of either gender, whether young or old, male or female in 1 Timothy 5:1-2.
Women can also not be elders in a church, only a man can be an elder. Which means also no women priests or pastors.
1 Titus 3
So, no woman elders just elderly ladies!
Good reading on women's roles in church
bible.org
1 Titus 3
Qualified Elders
5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you— 6 if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of [b]dissipation or insubordination. 7 For a [c]bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, 8 but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.So, no woman elders just elderly ladies!
Good reading on women's roles in church
Lesson 7: The Conduct Of Women In The Church (1 Timothy 2:9-15) | Bible.org
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1 Timothy 3, only men to be elder, bishop, or deacons.
Qualifications of Overseers
3 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a [a]bishop, he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not [b]given to wine, not violent, [c]not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not [d]covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a [e]novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.Qualifications of Deacons
8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, 9 holding the [f]mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. 10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. 11 Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not [g]slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.People do go their own way, and do what seems right in their eyes, but you won't have any scriptural backing to do that.
I went to a church once where the pastor appointed a rich women as an elder, course it was wrong. Her husband was also an elder. She died a few years later before her husband died and before the pastor left the church, and he was not an old person. And also 3 or 4 elders died in a shockingly quick time. Now most of them were nice guys, but also had some strange ideas, don't we all from time to time!
Pastor at the time had all sorts of ideas about how it was ok and good thing to do to go against the scripture. Like we are not under the law but grace, etc.... and no one raised any fuss about it.
Funny thing was the church had always placed great emphasis on following the NT church guidelines in scripture in prior years, or at least claimed to be a church that was restored to the original way as in what the scriptures say. But they were not. And it showed in some other things too.
I went to a church once where the pastor appointed a rich women as an elder, course it was wrong. Her husband was also an elder. She died a few years later before her husband died and before the pastor left the church, and he was not an old person. And also 3 or 4 elders died in a shockingly quick time. Now most of them were nice guys, but also had some strange ideas, don't we all from time to time!
Pastor at the time had all sorts of ideas about how it was ok and good thing to do to go against the scripture. Like we are not under the law but grace, etc.... and no one raised any fuss about it.
Funny thing was the church had always placed great emphasis on following the NT church guidelines in scripture in prior years, or at least claimed to be a church that was restored to the original way as in what the scriptures say. But they were not. And it showed in some other things too.
You are making a huge assumption as to the nature of the elect lady and her children
At the end of the very short letter, John writes this
12 Having many things to write to you, I did not wish to do so with paper and ink; but I hope to come to you and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.
13 The children of your elect sister greet you. Amen.
Rather than an elder, this elect lady could be the mother of a group of children and her household, not a church made of many different people, two families of whom John is friends with personally.
And her sister is like her.
The elect lady may also be a church group itself and is in line with thinking of a church as the bride of Christ, so then an elect lady.
The elect sister, a sister church. There is nothing here saying the elect lady is a pastor, elder, deaconess, or priestess.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Well, we are not talking about the ministry that Jesus has ONLY to the House of Israel (Jew) when he was on the earth.
We are talking about the birth of the NT Church, that occurred with the Cross being Raised that started "the time of the Gentiles'.
So, in THIS situation, that is not Jesus dealing with Jews, only.. .we are now liberated from Moses's Law,.... "Not under the LAW.. but under GRACE">.... and the CHURCH is become a mostly gentile "body of Christ", and in this we have not just Males in the Ministry.
So, a woman can Minister... she can teach, preach, .....all of this.....but she can't be a PASTOR..., because as Paul teaches.. this is to be "the HUSBAND of one Wife"...
Manhood and Womanhood in Parachurch Ministry
Increasingly, parachurch ministries are allowing women to occupy positions of spiritual authority once reserved for men. Do they have biblical warrant to do so?
www.desiringgod.org
Search | Desiring God
www.desiringgod.org
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
It was both. The 120 speaking in tongues supernaturally did not know what they were saying, and the 3000 heard all of them at once speaking in each man's language. Like a choir. They each heard supernaturally, not naturally, but by the gift of interpretation of tongues. It is very clear and confirms 1 Cor. 14:2. Tongues are never understood naturally; only by the gift of interpretation of tongues. 1 Cor. 14:5
Behold
Well-Known Member
Actually thats not true.
The reason is.., Peter and those who spoke had received a Gift from God. because they are born again...
Where as those who are hearing.......are hearing the Gospel, as unbelievers.. .and God is not going to give them a Gift, as they are unbelievers.
The sign was to unbelievers, JEWS.........and Paul teaches that 'JEWS require a sign".. so, these unbelieving Jews said... "we hear in our own language' these people speaking our language... and that is a "sign" to the Jews.... and they were looking for a sign, and that is why they believed.
1 Corin 1:22
Remember this verse... "what SIGN will you show us"?
That's JEWS who "require a sign". .and they got it during Pentecost.
There is nothing in 2 John that identifies the elect lady as being a local assembly
Who is elect?
[Isa 42:1 KJV] 1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, [in whom] my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Jesus is elect
[Isa 45:4 KJV] 4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Israel is elect
[Col 3:12 KJV] 12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
The church the body of Christ is elect as it it chosen in Christ
[1Ti 5:21 KJV] 21 I charge [thee] before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
Angels are elect
[2Jo 1:6 KJV] 6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
Israel heard from the beginning to walk in love
[Jhn 14:15 KJV] 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
This was directed to Israel
[Jer 3:6 KJV] 6 The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen [that] which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
[Amo 5:2 KJV] 2 The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; [there is] none to raise her up.
Israel is referred to as a lady
I think it more likely that believing Israel is the elect lady but I am not dogmatic in this
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
The elder to the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth. for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever: 2nd John 1:1-2
1. Who is the chosen lady and her children?
2. John loves the chosen lady and her children.
3. Those that know the truth will understand.
4. for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:
What does it mean and what does it not mean? With it being about a chosen lady and her children that john loves and those that know the truth love.....
Of all the things it could be...like being a congregation or Christianity itself, that would be the very last possibly.
What is the truth? John is writing to Christians…. Is he talking to Christians that do not know this truth…and the scripture is to those Christians that know that truth? There is nothing about this that sounds like something that was general knowledge in Christianity.
Then you have 1st John 1:12-13
I have much to write to you, but I do not want to use paper and ink. Instead, I hope to visit you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete. 13 The children of your sister, who is chosen by God, send their greetings.
“Children of your sister….back to the personal.
There is nothing in these scriptures that are defined as a special truth.
John did not divulge the truth in this scrpture so we do not know what it is about.
I have heard many explanations for this scripture, but it is like the sons of God scriptures.…no one agrees on it,
1. Who is the chosen lady and her children?
2. John loves the chosen lady and her children.
3. Those that know the truth will understand.
4. for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:
What does it mean and what does it not mean? With it being about a chosen lady and her children that john loves and those that know the truth love.....
Of all the things it could be...like being a congregation or Christianity itself, that would be the very last possibly.
What is the truth? John is writing to Christians…. Is he talking to Christians that do not know this truth…and the scripture is to those Christians that know that truth? There is nothing about this that sounds like something that was general knowledge in Christianity.
Then you have 1st John 1:12-13
I have much to write to you, but I do not want to use paper and ink. Instead, I hope to visit you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete. 13 The children of your sister, who is chosen by God, send their greetings.
“Children of your sister….back to the personal.
There is nothing in these scriptures that are defined as a special truth.
John did not divulge the truth in this scrpture so we do not know what it is about.
I have heard many explanations for this scripture, but it is like the sons of God scriptures.…no one agrees on it,
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Rather than an elder, this elect lady could be the mother of a group of children and her household, not a church made of many different people, two families of whom John is friends with personally.
My take on this was that the elect lady was Israel believers, but your take is very interesting.
[2Jo 1:5 KJV] 5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
The use of thee shows he is writing to an individual
[2Jo 1:10 KJV] 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:
This could be the lady's house
[2Jo 1:13 KJV] 13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.
Could be the lady's sister who also a believer and therefore elect
Believers are of the elect, and she seems to have had some important standing in the community, perhaps she was wealthy and took care of her household well, as did her sister.
John says this to her
Which implies this is not a Church as just some of her children walk with God.
I feel like this lady is helping John supporting him in his ministering and they are good friends.
Which implies this is not a Church as just some of her children walk with God.
Walk in Christ’s Commandments
4 I rejoiced greatly that I have found some of your children walking in truth, as we received commandment from the Father. 5 And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another. 6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.I feel like this lady is helping John supporting him in his ministering and they are good friends.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Can you imagine the cacophony of noise that 120 different languages all spoken at once would produce.
Who owns the gifts? God does. He is authorized to use His own gifts in the drawing in of DEVOUT Jews. I've seen the identical thing happen to a non-Christian teenager who had Christian friends who brought her to a youth group. In a circle around her, they were all praying in tongues, but all she heard was English. Same thing, and it doesn't contradict 1 Cor. 14:2.
These Jews loved God; they were already His. The Romans or possibly other Gentiles only heard gibberish.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Not just Jews, but unsaved Corinthians and other Gentiles. Are tongues a positive sign, or a negative sign? 1 Cor. 14:22-23
Pastor at the time had all sorts of ideas about how it was ok and good thing to do to go against the scripture. Like we are not under the law but grace, etc.... and no one raised any fuss about it.
Can I ask was this pastor saying that the four gospels were not for us to obey but we should obey the epistles of Paul in this dispensation?
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