Will you be caught up in the rapture or left-behind??

[PinSeeker]

There is nothing you have shown me that proves Satan is sealed, locked away, bound and in chains.

Well, that's too bad, I guess, but I understand. :) I appreciate your thoughts, NoPre-Trib, and respect you greatly for considering such things. I don't mean to direct this at you, really, but like I have said, John's Revelation gives people a hard time, particularly the 20th chapter, but it needn't be so.

Regarding Revelation 20, though, Satan is indeed bound, meaning that his power to influence the nations is suppressed. Many associate this event with the advent of an extraordinary future era of peace and prosperity, contrasting with the present, but the binding of Satan has already taken place through Christ’s death and resurrection. We can see that in the following passages:

• Jesus said, "Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? But for this purpose I have come to this hour. Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice (the Father's voice) came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to him.” Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not mine. Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself” (John 12).

• "Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world ~ he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, 'Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come'..." (Revelation 12)

• Again, Jesus said, "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand. And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house" (Matthew 12).

The present spread of the gospel to the nations, as initiated in Acts, is the result of a restriction on Satan’s power to deceive. The deceiving of the nations takes place largely through the activity of the Beast (Revelation 13:14; Revelation 16:14; Revelation 19:20). As the Beast can suffer repeated defeats (Revelation 17:8, 10), so Satan can suffer repeated defeats in his power over the nations. The loosing of Satan in 20:7-10 represents his final attempt, leading to his final defeat.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[[email protected]]

So tell me when did the AOD enter the temple declaring Himself God?

When did the Jews flee as in Rev. 12?

When did Israel sign an covenant with the AC.

When did the skies roll up as a scroll vis a vis REv. 6 revealing the tribulation arrived?

The killing of 1/3 of the Jewish population is definitely tribulation for Israel, but during the tribulation of Matt. 24 2/3 of Israel will be killed!

Well as it is explicitly and unambiguolsy declared by Jesus Himself- yes Jesus will physically return.

Well as I never denied the death of 6,000,000 Jews during WW 2 all your venom you spewed towards me and my church are merely you bearing false witness against a brother in your haughty arrogance!

Until you apologoze on this thread for spreading lies about me, I do not wish to converse further with a spreader of lies.

Your opinion is noted especially with regard to your BLOODY DEMAND FOR MORE MURDER OF INNOCENT JEWS.

Jesus said it would ONLY happen once.

Which part of ONCE do you not understand?

If you cannot or WILL NOT understand this one simple bloody statement of fact, then you cannot understand other aspects of eschatology.

It is a sad fact of the post-modern church that christians;

- Do not honor God as God.
- Do not respect the Bible.
- Do not even care about their fellow man.
- DO EMBRACE their particular doctrines and myths.

Just as the pharisees before them, they have created their own traditions and interpretations. The embrace them all, none of which can save. They continue to exalt their antisemitic attitudes and refuse the facts of history and the evidence of their own eyes.

They do not understand the Biblical sequence of events, nor did the pharisees before them.
They do not care for Yisrael at all. Neither do they care for their own communities.

The coming of the Son of Man will be a complete and absolute surprise to them because none of the events that precede it will have been approved by their private doctrines of demons.

So let us continue to beat the proverbial dead horse into dust, for that is all you can or ever will understand.

"The good news is that Jesus will return. The bad news is that He's really pissed off." (Bob Hope)

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

 

[No Pre-TB]

I don't mean to direct this at you, really, but like I have said, John's Revelation gives people a hard time, particularly the 20th chapter, but it needn't be so.

No disrespect is taken. I agree, some people have a hard time with it. This is why we don't agree with each other.

Regarding Revelation 20, though, Satan is indeed bound, meaning that his power to influence the nations is suppressed.

Yet countless wars have influenced the nations to battle, kingdom vs kingdom just as Christ said before He and the end comes. There has been no suppression of deception.

now will the ruler of this world be cast out.

Yes, now that Christ was lifted up, people can be redeemed by his blood and sacrifice. That is a blow to Satan and darkness. That is not sealing/removing/locking him up. If Christ didn't die, would their sins be forgiven? Does forgiveness of sin seal Satan? No.

And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world ~ he was thrown down to the earth

You didnt add the next part.

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Every believer at that time. Notice, they didn't love their lives unto death. Did that happen at Christ death or did that happen much later? Obviously, not at Christ death. And this continues today as people lean on Jesus. These overcame Satan by reliance on the blood of Christ. For them to overcome him, he must be exercising his power. There is nothing here that suggests he is locked away.

if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man?

Yes, I believe this can be based on Satan. And I understand this as Satan still has control as he still roams per Peter. When Christ comes back, he will bind Satan in the bottomless pit sealing him for 1k years while the beast of the sea/earth are both in the lake of fire and plunder his goods. Then after the 1k years, Satan will be put in the lake of fire where they are.

The present spread of the gospel to the nations, as initiated in Acts, is the result of a restriction on Satan’s power to deceive.

I disagree. The present spread of the Gospel to the nations is based on Christ sacrifice and the great commission.

The deceiving of the nations takes place largely through the activity of the Beast (Revelation 13:14; Revelation 16:14; Revelation 19:20)

That doesn't explain 2k years of wars. You're putting focus on "deceiving the nations to battle". I am saying they have battled for 2k years and since Satan needs to be roaming for that to happen, he is not sealed as Paul stated he roams. And wars have continued without opposition which he has caused.

Tell me in 1 word if you can:
1. Is Christ 2nd Advent future?
2. Is the False Prophet of Rev 13:11 future?
3. Will Christ Kingdom fill up the whole world in the future?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Your opinion is noted especially with regard to your BLOODY DEMAND FOR MORE MURDER OF INNOCENT JEWS.

Jesus said it would ONLY happen once.

Which part of ONCE do you not understand?

If you cannot or WILL NOT understand this one simple bloody statement of fact, then you cannot understand other aspects of eschatology.

It is a sad fact of the post-modern church that christians;

- Do not honor God as God.
- Do not respect the Bible.
- Do not even care about their fellow man.
- DO EMBRACE their particular doctrines and myths.

Just as the pharisees before them, they have created their own traditions and interpretations. The embrace them all, none of which can save. They continue to exalt their antisemitic attitudes and refuse the facts of history and the evidence of their own eyes.

They do not understand the Biblical sequence of events, nor did the pharisees before them.
They do not care for Yisrael at all. Neither do they care for their own communities.

The coming of the Son of Man will be a complete and absolute surprise to them because none of the events that precede it will have been approved by their private doctrines of demons.

So let us continue to beat the proverbial dead horse into dust, for that is all you can or ever will understand.

"The good news is that Jesus will return. The bad news is that He's really pissed off." (Bob Hope)

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

And why is your opinion more authoritative than what you call my opinion?

Show me in Scripture where God said He would have a big slaughter of Jews ony once. YOU highlighted it and made it bold large print- so show me the verses!

And your sinful attempt at twisting my words is a shame on your writings. I do not demand more bloody violence on Israel! But the bible calls for it and it shall be. I never commented on my feelings on this verse which must still come to pass:

Zechariah 13:8-9

King James Version

​

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Ezekiel 20:33-38

King James Version

​

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.
37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

Neither of these prophecies have come to pass since god inspired both the utter them, so they are yet to come. If you do not like "my bloody demand", blame God and His Word, I just reported what He said!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

ou are focusing on one interpretation and ignoring the other. Now, perhaps you had already looked into it, I don't know. But if not, we should always look at possibilities and rule them out using scripture.

1. Christ, a prince, made a covenant with many by his blood. He was the only prince mentioned in the prophecy.
2. The temple was desolate and unclean because of the Pharisees. They had polluted it.
3. Sacrifice and oblation did cease with the Mosaic ceremonial laws being finished with Christ
4. The man of sin - Look at the literal standard version.

Who is opposing and is raising himself up above all called god or worshiped, so as for him to have sat down in the temple of God, proclaiming that he is God.

It doesn't mean he will literally sit. It means because of his opposition to God and his pride, he raises himself up above all, even God so as to seat himself as God in His temple. The act describes the symbolic meaning. Here is the KJV:

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God

1. Jesus did not make a 7 year covenant with Israel.
2. Nor did He end the sacrifice and oblations in the midst of His covenant.
3. The temple was desolate because of the judgment Jesus pronounced in Luke 20.
4. No the sacrifices and oblations continued until 70AD. YOu are allegorizing and redefining the word cease in reference ot the sacrifices and oblations.
5. The man of sin is the Abomination of Desolation in Matt. 24.

So your rationalizing and allegorizing falls far far short of what Scripture actually says.

Whether the AC sits or stands or dances or does hop scotch in teh temple- He will go into the holy of holies and declare himself God.

Messiah is the only named prince in Daniel, but following grammar 100% shows that the prophecy mentions 2 princes:
1. Messiah the Prince associated with teh 69 weeks and being killed
2. Prince of the people to come who will destroy the sanctuary- this is a Roman ruler.

 

[ewq1938]

Regarding Revelation 20, though, Satan is indeed bound, meaning that his power to influence the nations is suppressed.

Which is to change what Rev says.

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

It says he can deceive the nations no more, which is not that his deception is "suppressed" but is ZERO, an inability to deceive not a suppression of it. Amill is very deceptive and alters what the text says to change it to something else. All false doctrines do this.

 

[Timtofly]

Prince of the people to come who will destroy the sanctuary- this is a Roman ruler.

This is not the grammar of Scripture. This is your own grammatical thought.

Not the people to come.

"and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary"

Jesus does not destroy the temple, but his kinsmen did, as it was those of his and the next few generations who experienced the destruction of their own city.

Jesus is the only Prince to come. Revelation 17:10

"and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

Jesus is the King to come. Jesus is the other not yet come, and when he cometh, he is the 7th kingdom and will continue a short space, while confirming the Atonement Covenant with the many.

Revelation 11:15

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Revelation 10:5-7

"And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Jesus is the King to come, just as Jesus was the Christ who came over 2,000 years ago. The sounding of the 7th Trumpet is the completion of Daniel 9. Until the 7th Trumpet stops sounding the vision and prophecy has not been sealed up. Time is only declared over at the completion of the 7th Trumpet.

 

[No Pre-TB]

1. Jesus did not make a 7 year covenant with Israel.
2. Nor did He end the sacrifice and oblations in the midst of His covenant.
3. The temple was desolate because of the judgment Jesus pronounced in Luke 20.
4. No the sacrifices and oblations continued until 70AD. YOu are allegorizing and redefining the word cease in reference ot the sacrifices and oblations.
5. The man of sin is the Abomination of Desolation in Matt. 24.

So your rationalizing and allegorizing falls far far short of what Scripture actually says.

Whether the AC sits or stands or dances or does hop scotch in teh temple- He will go into the holy of holies and declare himself God.

Messiah is the only named prince in Daniel, but following grammar 100% shows that the prophecy mentions 2 princes:
1. Messiah the Prince associated with teh 69 weeks and being killed
2. Prince of the people to come who will destroy the sanctuary- this is a Roman ruler.

As I said earlier, some believe this way, some believe that way. I wish you well in your own truth's.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This is not the grammar of Scripture. This is your own grammatical thought.

Not the people to come.

"and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary"

Jesus does not destroy the temple, but his kinsmen did, as it was those of his and the next few generations who experienced the destruction of their own city.

Jesus is the only Prince to come. Revelation 17:10

"and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

Jesus is the King to come. Jesus is the other not yet come, and when he cometh, he is the 7th kingdom and will continue a short space, while confirming the Atonement Covenant with the many.

No that is the rules of universal grammar! Remember it is God who created language, grammar and its rules so we can understand when people speak and write.

Jesus is now King of Kings no longer a Prince. He is not the prince who came and destroyed the sanctuary.

Every rule of understanding grammar tells us that the prince must go back to its nearest antecedent.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate

It was Rome and not Israel that destroyed the sanctuary. It may be because of their sin, but make no mistake, Romans destroyed the temple.

The he of verse 27 refers back to the Roman prince to come!

Jesus is the King to come but He is not hte seventh kingdom nor is he the king who remains a short time. that is the antichrist. who taught you this?

Who has taught you this view?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

As I said earlier, some believe this way, some believe that way. I wish you well in your own truth's.

Well your subtle insult is not so subtle. I am convinced it is Scripture, just like you are convinced you have Scripture. Time will show who holds the correct understanding.

 

[PinSeeker]

No disrespect is taken. I agree, some people have a hard time with it. This is why we don't agree with each other.

Agreed, but disagreed regarding who here is having the "hard time" with it... :)

Yet countless wars have influenced the nations to battle, kingdom vs kingdom just as Christ said before He and the end comes.

Right; sin is very pervasive. I see the problem here; a very different understanding of what it means for Satan to deceive the nations. It doesn't really have anything to do with nations going to war against one another. Rather, it has to do with Satan's ability to prevent the spread of the Gospel to nations. Since Christ's coming,

...now that Christ was lifted up, people can be redeemed by his blood and sacrifice.

This was always true, from Genesis 3 on.

That is a blow to Satan and darkness. That is not sealing/removing/locking him up.

Well, I agree with the "blow to Satan and darkness" part... :) But "ruler of this world (being) cast out" fails to qualify as a removal to you? Because that's exactly what it is, and in this way he is bound ~ sealed ~ from influencing the nations, which again, means... well see above.

If Christ didn't die, would their sins be forgiven? Does forgiveness of sin seal Satan? No.

You didnt add the next part.

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Every believer at that time. Notice, they didn't love their lives unto death. Did that happen at Christ death or did that happen much later? Obviously, not at Christ death. And this continues today as people lean on Jesus. These overcame Satan by reliance on the blood of Christ. For them to overcome him, he must be exercising his power.

Well, rather than "power," I would characterize it as influence. And you're speaking of Satan's attempts to influence individuals, his efforts to keep them from believing the Gospel. He can still "prowl" in this way... regarding individuals, not nations. To give some kind of worldly parallel, even prisoners in federal penitentiaries can exert influence on people on the outside. Surely, you will not accept that, and that's... okay. :)

...When Christ comes back, he will bind Satan in the bottomless pit sealing him for 1k years while the beast of the sea/earth are both in the lake of fire and plunder his goods. Then after the 1k years, Satan will be put in the lake of fire where they are.

Ugh. Satan's "goods," No Pre-TB, are individuals who are not yet in Christ. But, thanks be to God, more and more people are coming to Christ ~ being born again of the Spirit ~ even as we speak. Satan is bound now, in the present millennium, in which Christ is reigning from heaven.

I disagree.

Of course you do. :)

You're putting focus on "deceiving the nations to battle".

No, that would seem to be you. In Revelation 20, No Pre-TB, there's no mention of any battle until after the millennium is ended. Verse 7 and 8 are very clear:

"And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle."

I am saying they have battled for 2k years...

Right, so stop. :)

...wars have continued without opposition which he has caused.

Yes... Well, I would eschew the "without opposition" thing; that seems quite a ridiculous supposition. But the point is that you're conflating wars between countries/nations with Satan's deceiving nations, and that...

Tell me in 1 word if you can:
1. Is Christ 2nd Advent future?
2. Is the False Prophet of Rev 13:11 future?
3. Will Christ Kingdom fill up the whole world in the future?

1. Yes.
2. Yes, but not solely. The false prophet of Revelation 13 now counterfeits the (past, present, and future) witness of the Holy Spirit.
3. Yes, after the final Judgment. The meek shall inherit the earth.

I would be at least somewhat interested in your own answers to those questions.

PinSeeker: Regarding Revelation 20, though, Satan is indeed bound, meaning that his power to influence the nations is suppressed.​

Which is to change what Rev says.

In your opinion. But, absolutely not.

Rev 20:3... says he can deceive the nations no more, which is not that his deception is "suppressed" but is ZERO, an inability to deceive not a suppression of it.

Right, the nations, EWQ. But individuals within those nations are still susceptible to his influence/deception... But yes, right now, he has no ability to prevent the spread of the Gospel to nations. Right now, because there will come a time when he will be loosed near the end... But yes, right now, and since Christ's first coming, Satan has had and has absolutely no ability to prevent the spread of the Gospel to nations. He is bound from doing so. There are missionaries across the globe doing great work, and the Holy Spirit is obviously doing marvelous things everywhere.

Amill is very deceptive and alters what the text says to change it to something else.

Some think so, sure; you are not alone. :) But... not the case. At all. But, far be it from me or anyone else to deprive you of your opinion, though. :)

Grace and peace to you both.

 

[Timtofly]

No that is the rules of universal grammar! Remember it is God who created language, grammar and its rules so we can understand when people speak and write.

Jesus is now King of Kings no longer a Prince. He is not the prince who came and destroyed the sanctuary.

Every rule of understanding grammar tells us that the prince must go back to its nearest antecedent.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate

It was Rome and not Israel that destroyed the sanctuary. It may be because of their sin, but make no mistake, Romans destroyed the temple.

The he of verse 27 refers back to the Roman prince to come!

Jesus is the King to come but He is not hte seventh kingdom nor is he the king who remains a short time. that is the antichrist. who taught you this?

Who has taught you this view?

Do you not understand Revelation 17?

Everyone knows who has read Josephus that the Jews destroyed themselves and their city and temple. Yet you refuse to see that point.

One more try. You said the prince of the people to come

2. Prince of the people to come who will destroy the sanctuary- this is a Roman ruler.

You changed the grammer to say the prince is the subject doing the action. That is not Scripture. Scripture:

"the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary"

Scripture says the people are the subject doing the action verb of destroying.

The Prince to come is associated with the people not the destruction.

Daniel already associated the Prince with the Messiah.

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince"

Does Messiah mean the same as Christ, and Prince the same as King? Does any one realize that emperor or princeps was only confered to one person at a time under Roman Law? Even placing a diadem on one's head was considered treason. Titus was never referred to as a prince nor king. Such an interpretation is linguistically incorrect. No such thing as a Roman ruler as in prince or king. Rome was a republic with an emperor. Not a monarchy with a king and prince positions. Even though the term prince came from the Latin princeps.

If you are erroneously going to blame the Romans contrary to Scripture, will the Romans once again come to power in the future? Jesus is the only Prince mentioned in Daniel 9:24-27

Daniel 9:27 is still future when Jesus reigns as King in Jerusalem.

 

[Timtofly]

3. Yes, after the final Judgment. The meek shall inherit the earth.

Interesting, since you claim that is already true. The stone per Daniel 2 was cut out at the Cross, but did not destroy Rome the 4th kingdom. It was the destruction of the 5th kingdom, the 10 toes. That would be about the time of the Reformation. Since then the mountain has now filled the earth. Seems as an Amil you would already accept that as the here and now. Don't you think the meek are the ones in control?

The current kingdom is dead. Not even part of the Daniel 2 image. We pretend there is a silent majority perhaps even controlled by Satan calling all the shots. But it is the meek who call the shots in every city despite corrupt leadership. They decide to work every day to keep the economy going.

Satan was never bound per Revelation 20. He has just had opposition from those filled with and obedient to the Holy Spirit even during the dark ages. The destruction of the 5 kingdoms in the image of Daniel 2 is not future. It is already over, and the kingdom of the stone (Jesus Christ) has filled the earth. Still not the 1,000 years of Revelation 20.

Revelation 20 cannot happen until the dragon is destroyed and Satan is bound. According to Revelation 17 we still have to finish off the 6th kingdom. Celebrate the 7th kingdom, and perhaps endure the 8th kingdom. Only then can the dragon be symbolically defeated. Where in history has Satan had total control of the earth for 42 months?

Do Amil give him a 42 month parole at some point during their alleged millennium? Satan cannot even be bound until that period has been realized. There is no parallel 8th kingdom with any other kingdom throughout history. Especially if you have the king incapacitated since the first century.

 

[PinSeeker]

Interesting, since you claim that is already true.

And when and/or where did I claim that it (Christ's kingdom filling the earth) is already true, Timtofly?

The stone per Daniel 2 was cut out at the Cross, but did not destroy Rome the 4th kingdom. It was the destruction of the 5th kingdom, the 10 toes. That would be about the time of the Reformation. Since then the mountain has now filled the earth.

Ugh. No, the mountain is growing... :)

Seems as an Amil you would already accept that as the here and now. Don't you think the meek are the ones in control?

Nope. I'm... really not sure what to make of your thoughts about "Amils". :)

The current kingdom is dead.

Well that's quite opposite what Jesus said on several occasions.

Not even part of the Daniel 2 image. We pretend there is a silent majority perhaps even controlled by Satan calling all the shots. But it is the meek who call the shots in every city despite corrupt leadership. They decide to work every day to keep the economy going.

Satan was never bound per Revelation 20.

Well, yes he was. See above.

Revelation 20 cannot happen until the dragon is destroyed and Satan is bound. According to Revelation 17 we still have to finish off the 6th kingdom. Celebrate the 7th kingdom, and perhaps endure the 8th kingdom. Only then can the dragon be symbolically defeated.

Revelation is not to be read as being purely in chronological order, Timtofly. For instance, the events of Revelation 20 are not chronologically subsequent to the events described in Revelation 19. That's sort of a micro-example, if you will. Regarding Revelation as a whole, in a nutshell:

The vision of God in Revelation 4:1-5:14 is obviously the key opening scene from which the action of the book unfolds. Subsequently, there are seven cycles of judgment, each of which leads up to the Second Coming. The cycles parallel one another. All cover the same period leading up to the Second Coming. But each cycle does so from its own distinct vantage point. Moreover, later cycles concentrate more and more on the most intense phases of conflict and on the Second Coming itself. Revelation 20:1-21:8 is the last ~ the seventh ~ of these cycles. And back to my micro-example above, the events described in Revelation 19:11-21 should be seen as a parallel description of the events described in Revelation 20:7-10.

Where in history has Satan had total control of the earth for 42 months?

He's never had total control; he's always been able to do nothing without permission. :)

Do Amil give him a 42 month parole at some point during their alleged millennium?

Sorry about this, but... LOL!

Satan cannot even be bound until that period has been realized.

He was bound from deceiving the nations at Christ's first advent.

There is no parallel 8th kingdom with any other kingdom throughout history. Especially if you have the king incapacitated since the first century.

Ugh.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Timtofly]

Well that's quite opposite what Jesus said on several occasions.

Jesus also lived 2 millennia ago.

What percentage do you think this mountain is at in filling the earth, since you deny it has filled the earth?

As an Amil, there is no filling the earth after the judgment. Pre-mill are the ones who claim the earth is subdued after the Second Coming. Most Amil claim the judgment happens at the Second Coming.

Filling the earth does not mean every last human is redeemed, as that would be the post mill explanation. Filling the earth means that the majority of humans on earth has had an opportunity to hear the Gospel.

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"

Your point is that Satan was bound to prevent this mountain from filling the earth. Why then do you think the gospel has not filled the earth? The mountain is referred to as a kingdom, but the unseen kingdom of God, not an earthly kingdom.

Revelation 20 is not about a prevention of the Gospel. That is just you inserting your point into the chapter. The Gospel is not even a thing in Revelation 20. No one in the Day of the Lord needs to be saved. No one is in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Satan is bound so he is not ut attempting to decieve people to get them to rebel. Remember his deception first caused a third of the angels to rebel. Then he deceived Eve to disobey God.

Those on earth are deceived after the thousand years to overthrow the government. You know, Jesus as King in Jerusalem, which you deny?

The world does not need Satan to reject or even prevent them from spreading the Gospel. Humans by nature already reject the Gospel, or too wrapped up in their own lives. For the Gospel to spread, people need to submit to the Holy Spirit. It is then the Holy Spirit who defeats Satan and the spiritual darkness. The church is the stone that was cut out, and filled the earth. The stone only works through the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Do you not understand Revelation 17?

Everyone knows who has read Josephus that the Jews destroyed themselves and their city and temple. Yet you refuse to see that point.

One more try. You said the prince of the people to come


You changed the grammer to say the prince is the subject doing the action. That is not Scripture. Scripture:

"the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary"

Scripture says the people are the subject doing the action verb of destroying.

The Prince to come is associated with the people not the destruction.

Daniel already associated the Prince with the Messiah.

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince"

Does Messiah mean the same as Christ, and Prince the same as King? Does any one realize that emperor or princeps was only confered to one person at a time under Roman Law? Even placing a diadem on one's head was considered treason. Titus was never referred to as a prince nor king. Such an interpretation is linguistically incorrect. No such thing as a Roman ruler as in prince or king. Rome was a republic with an emperor. Not a monarchy with a king and prince positions. Even though the term prince came from the Latin princeps.

If you are erroneously going to blame the Romans contrary to Scripture, will the Romans once again come to power in the future? Jesus is the only Prince mentioned in Daniel 9:24-27

Daniel 9:27 is still future when Jesus reigns as King in Jerusalem.

Have read Josephus. Yawn! He is not Scripture

Never said that the Roman prince destroyed the sanctuary. I only described the prince as a Roman ruler

Yes Messiah=christ but prince does not =king.

Titus is not the ruler Daniel prophesied about. Daniel spoke of a future ruler who would be a roman ruler of some sort and make a 7 year covenant with Israel.

Yes the prince is related to the people and Daniel described the ethnos of the people as Roman.

You left off the quo0uite about Messiah --the 69 weeks! that took place on the first palm sunday!

The destruction of the temple and jerusalem was caused by Israels sinfulness, but make no mistke-rome did the sesatroy8ng and that is what Daniel is speaking of.

Once again- Jesus never made a 7 year covenant with Israel.
Jesus never caused the overspreading of abominations.
Jesus never caused the sacrifices and oblations to end.

Scripture teaches us that Jesus death and resurrection ended teh efficacy of the sacrifices, but not the saxrifices themselves as Daniel is prophesying.

Third request- who has taught you this stuff?

 

[PinSeeker]

Jesus also lived 2 millennia ago.

A good start... LOL!

What percentage do you think this mountain is at in filling the earth...

Don't know; none of us does. Is it closer, even much closer, to filling the earth than it was? Well, sure. God is bringing it to completion, though, that much we can say with absolute confidence. And that's really the main point of Revelation, actually. Jesus wins. :)

...there is no filling the earth after the judgment.

Agreed. Do you believe otherwise, Timtofly? I guess I might have to gain some understanding of... your understanding... :) of "filling the earth." Ah, I see you clarify below; very well, I'll address it then.

...the judgment happens at the Second Coming.

Agreed. Again, do you believe otherwise, Timtofly?

Filling the earth does not mean every last human is redeemed...

Agreed.

Filling the earth means that the majority of humans on earth has had an opportunity to hear the Gospel.

Hmmm... interesting... Okay, so yeah, I disagree that this is what "filling the earth" ~ in the context of Daniel 2 ~ means.

As a related aside, Just to your comment about the Gospel, I would agree with what Paul says in Romans 1, that at the end of this age, when Jesus returns, no one will have any excuse. Regarding unbelievers in particular, God's invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made, so they are without excuse; although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to Him, but they... exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things ~ they worship creation rather than the Creator. So just to your statement here, and specifically the "majority of humans (having) had an opportunity," I would rather say "all"... no one will have any excuse for not having believed and worshiped and thus glorified God.

Your point is that Satan was bound to prevent this mountain from filling the earth.

No, that's not my point at all, Timtofly. I would say Satan wants the "mountain" to be his, though... :) But okay, cutting to the chase, I believe the "filling of the earth" is... well, I'm going to save this to the end of this post; let me respond to a few more of your comments here first...

Why then do you think the gospel has not filled the earth?

The general call of the Gospel is out there, and yes, it has "filled the earth." But I'm speaking more about people, Timtofly, about God's Israel, which will include in the end both Jew and Gentile... already does, of course, but it is not yet complete. So in that sense, the earth is not yet filled.

The mountain is referred to as a kingdom, but the unseen kingdom of God, not an earthly kingdom.

Agreed.

Revelation 20 is not about a prevention of the Gospel. That is just you inserting your point into the chapter.

Okay, well, yet again, I never said that was the point of Revelation 20. But one element of Revelation 20 is that the Gospel is spreading, and will not be stopped. :)

The Gospel is not even a thing in Revelation 20.

LOL! Well the Gospel is always "a thing"... My goodness.

No one in the Day of the Lord needs to be saved.

Well, some will not be by that Day, but all of God's Israel will have been, and that's why ~ when, anyway ~ that Day will come. The fullness of the believing Gentiles will be brought in, and the partial hardening that is now on Israel will be removed; in this way all Israel will be saved (Romans 11:25-26). The Day of Christ will then come.

Satan is bound so he is not ut attempting to deceive people to get them to rebel.

No, Satan is bound so that he can no longer deceive the nations; he is absolutely bound in that sense. But he can still throw his "flaming darts," as Paul characterizes his attempts to deceive individuals in Ephesians 6, but if we put on the full armor of God, we can and ultimately will be able to stand against the schemes of the devil.

Remember his deception first caused a third of the angels to rebel. Then he deceived Eve to disobey God.

Those on earth are deceived after the thousand years to overthrow the government. You know, Jesus as King in Jerusalem, which you deny?

Well, yes, because that statement is quite ridiculous. :) No one is deceived once Jesus comes back. :) He will sit in judgment of all, and after the judgment, those who were raised to the resurrection of judgment will depart, and never be heard from or remembered again.

The world does not need Satan to reject or even prevent them from spreading the Gospel.

Well no, but that is his intention, his desire... but he cannot prevent the spreading of the Gospel, which I think/hope we agree on... which is the sense in which he is, at present, bound.

Humans by nature already reject the Gospel...

Agreed. This is the natural human condition. For any one person, this may or may not remain the case; it depends on God's mercy (Romans 9). He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, compassion on whom He will have compassion; He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills (Exodus 33, Romans 9). But this is a bit different subject than what we have been discussing... related, for sure, as it's all related, but a different thing.

For the Gospel to spread, people need to submit to the Holy Spirit...

Well, sure, but they will "submit to the Holy Spirit," and willingly, but only if God calls them out of darkness into His marvelous light ~ which is what the Holy Spirit does in the hearts of God's elect ~ and not otherwise. Again, a different thing; related, but different.

It is then the Holy Spirit who defeats Satan and the spiritual darkness.

Well, His present work in this world is overcoming Satan and preserving us and will come to completion at the day of Christ, yes.

The church is the stone that was cut out, and filled the earth. The stone only works through the power of the Holy Spirit.

I would say this "stone" is a type/shadow of Jesus, not His church. :) As the writer of Hebrews says, "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, Whom He appointed the heir of all things, through Whom also He created the world" (Hebrews 1:1-2). As David, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Peter all wrote:

• "The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone" (Psalm 118:22)
• "Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: “‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes’?" (Matthew 21:42)
• "Have you not read this Scripture: “‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone..." (Mark 12:10)
• "But He looked directly at them and said, 'What then is this that is written: "The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone?"’ Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him." (Luke 20:17-18)
• "This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone." (Acts 4:11)
• "As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious," (1 Peter 2:4)
• "So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone...” (1 Peter 2:7)

And Paul says to the Ephesians and by extension to all of us believers:

• "So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the Cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit" (Ephesians 2:19-22)

Do a quick search using a concordance regarding "filling the earth," Timtofly. You should quickly see, for example, that God told Noah to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth (Genesis 9:1), but this is not what is quite different than what the mountain filling the earth means in Daniel 2. You'll agree with that, I think. But what the filling of the earth with the mountain in Daniel 2 is closely associated with is, for example, what we see in Numbers 14:21, "all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD," or Psalm 72:19, "may the whole earth be filled with His glory," or Habakkuk 2:14, "the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea."

Maybe you agree, but if not, fair enough.

Grace and peace to you, Timtofly.

 

[Timtofly]

Have read Josephus. Yawn! He is not Scripture

Never said that the Roman prince destroyed the sanctuary. I only described the prince as a Roman ruler

Yes Messiah=christ but prince does not =king.

Titus is not the ruler Daniel prophesied about. Daniel spoke of a future ruler who would be a roman ruler of some sort and make a 7 year covenant with Israel.

Yes the prince is related to the people and Daniel described the ethnos of the people as Roman.

You left off the quo0uite about Messiah --the 69 weeks! that took place on the first palm sunday!

The destruction of the temple and jerusalem was caused by Israels sinfulness, but make no mistke-rome did the sesatroy8ng and that is what Daniel is speaking of.

Once again- Jesus never made a 7 year covenant with Israel.
Jesus never caused the overspreading of abominations.
Jesus never caused the sacrifices and oblations to end.

Scripture teaches us that Jesus death and resurrection ended teh efficacy of the sacrifices, but not the saxrifices themselves as Daniel is prophesying.

Third request- who has taught you this stuff?

How do you know it was the Romans? You gave it a lucky guess? That is certainly not found in Scripture. It could have been the Muslims who destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem. They did build their mosque and dome of the rock there. I mean, why trust Josephus, right?

Jesus will allow the fulfillment of Daniel 9:27 in the future as the King sitting on the throne in Jerusalem, when He hands the throne over to Satan. So you are saying the Messiah the Prince cannot be Jesus, because the word cannot mean King. The word was used for King Saul and King David. Were they not a King, only a Prince? The word means ruler and ruler and king are synonyms.

I read God's Word and refuse to accept human theology. Especially when that theology contradicts Scripture.

 

[Timtofly]

He will sit in judgment of all, and after the judgment, those who were raised to the resurrection of judgment will depart, and never be heard from or remembered again.

This is the finality that goes against the clear point of the thousand years.

The point of the Second Coming is not to end creation, but to complete the task in current creation that Adam failed to do.

The Second Coming is not to fill up the earth with the church. There are not enough redeemed to fill up the earth. 8 billion people do not fill up the earth. The earth is not overcrowded and overpopulated.

The earth is just overrun with sin, decay, death, and corruption. When people symbolize what it means to have no sin and no transgressions that is not changing reality. That is putting a bandaid on reality like the Law of Moses did. When sin and transgression are removed, all of creation will experience the change, not just in a spiritual connotation. Is the Gospel necessary in heaven?

I have no argument about the here and now. Deceiving the nations is a pointless term though, if that is all Amil go by.

"That he should deceive the nations no more."

"And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth."

Do Amil just limit Satan's deception to the corporate level, but Satan is not bound to deceive individuals? How does that make sense? A nation cannot be deceived unless individuals within that nation are deceived. A nation does not think on a corporate level. In this usage nation just means people from several different countries all on the edge of society.

The same can be seen in Matthew 25:31-32

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another"

Jesus is judging individuals that make up those nations, not the whole nation on a corporate level. That may have had a different understanding in the first century, but today people are constantly moving from nation to nation. A nation is not a distinct ethnicity. It just means all the individuals are for the most part in agreement with each other.

Satan is bound to not be able to deceive any individual. During the Millennium, it is still up to each individual to obey. But disobedience does not effect the whole nation, it is just instant death for the individual. When Satan is loosed it does not even say every individual in a nation will be deceived. We just know Satan targets individuals that are farther away from Jerusalem, as those nations are the latest generations, the youngest of those living on the earth.

But it seems Amil cannot grasp what it means to have no sin nor death and corruption on earth. They agree that Adam's dead corruptible flesh all gets cast into the LOF never to be heard from again, as far as we know. They just don't accept Jesus is reigning on earth for a thousand years while perfect humans are making babies. The concept eludes even most pre-mill as they expect sin and death to persevere throughout the Millennium. That is what happens now. Certainly not after Jesus removes all the wickedness from His kingdom. That is what the baptism of fire is for, when Peter points out that everything will be burnt up. All of Adam's dead corruptible flesh will either be redeemed or cast into the LOF. Sin will not enter the Millennium. Sin does not enter after Satan is loosed. Death is the last enemy destroyed, right after those heading to Jerusalem are consumed by fire, the last humans to chose Satan and death, with the excuse that Satan deceived them.

Jesus returns creation to God, perfect, without sin, Satan, deceived people, death, and decay. Also subdued full of people despite those who were deceived no longer among them. Many Amil agree that burnt sacrifices ended at the Cross, yet expect Jesus to hand back creation as a burnt offering, with literally nothing on the earth, but death and destruction.

The Millennium is not for the spread of the Gospel. It is to fill the earth under the rule of Jesus to do what Adam did not do, but disobeyed, giving us 6,000 years of punishment. The last 2 are not described in Revelation 20. The last 2 are still Adam's punishment. Since the Cross, the door is not just through one nation where ethnicity was key, but the door to salvation is through every nation, the mountain that filled the whole earth.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

How do you know it was the Romans? You gave it a lucky guess? That is certainly not found in Scripture. It could have been the Muslims who destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem. They did build their mosque and dome of the rock there. I mean, why trust Josephus, right?

Well if you bother to read history, you will find Titus laid siege in 66 AD, left for a time and then returned and the legions sacked and destroyed the temple. that is fact.

Jesus will allow the fulfillment of Daniel 9:27 in the future as the King sitting on the throne in Jerusalem, when He hands the throne over to Satan. So you are saying the Messiah the Prince cannot be Jesus, because the word cannot mean King. The word was used for King Saul and King David. Were they not a King, only a Prince? The word means ruler and ruler and king are synonyms.

Satan is already the god of this world. when Jesus returns, He would never give His throne up, except to the Father as declared in 1 cor. 15.

I read God's Word and refuse to accept human theology. Especially when that theology contradicts Scripture.

So you never have read or listened to anyone preach about end times? You got all this yourself supposedly from God? How do you know it was God and not some angel of light? Your attitude certainly is one of belittling other Christians for their belief which does not come from god.

So when did God supposedly reveal all this stuff to you?