Why I'm NOT a Christian. - Or so they say...

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,934
5,689
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
--- PARODY ---

Christian #1: Are you a Christian?
Christian #2: Yes, although I'm not completely comfortable with that term.
Christian #1: You aren't comfortable being a Christian?
Christian #2: No, it's the term "Christian".
Christian #1: Shouldn't you stand up for what you believe?
Christian #2: I do. I'm just not a fan of labeling.
Christian #1: Why would you be ashamed of Christ?
Christian #2: I'm not. The term "Christian" comes with a lot of baggage.
Christian #1: It seems to me that you are not a Christian at all.
Christian #2: I hear that from Christians sometimes.
Christian #1: Based on what you have said, there is no proof that you are a Christian.
Christian #2: I suppose not. Can we really know for sure?
Christian #1: Why are you avoiding the question?
Christian #2: You asked me if I am a Christian and I said "Yes..."
Christian #1: But then you backed away from it.
Christian #2: I said I wasn't comfortable with labels.
Christian #1: You are still beating around the bush.
Christian #2: Why didn't you accept my initial answer?
Christian #1: Because of everything else you said.
Christian #2: (sigh)
Christian #1: What's wrong?
Christian #2: This is why I am uncomfortable with the term.
Christian #1: What do you mean?
Christian #2: I don't want to be associated with you.

[
 
Last edited:

MA2444

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2024
3,840
1,985
113
62
Columbus Ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Christian #1: Are you a Christian?
Christian #2: Yes, although I'm not completely comfortable with that term.

There was a time that I wasnt sure if I was comfortable with calling myself a Christian. Because as I understand it, the word Christian technically means, Christ-like...And I didnt feel very Christlike. I still used the term and called myself a Christian to people. It's a term that we use to show to the world whose camp we are of. So that's good enough reason for me to use the term, even if now, many years later, I still dont feel Christ-like! More than I did before for sure. I learned more of the big picture through reading the word and prayer.

And now I have learned that there is power in words. So it's a good thing to declare myself a "Christian" out loud. He is growing me up, and it is written that...I am the Righteousness of God. in Christ. Now before you go and start getting yourself into a hissy read on! I am technically, sin free as I am right now. But! (Big But), I am spirit/soul/body. The Lord has given me a new spirit! He is perfect!, he is so close to God that the Holy Spirit Himself comes and talks with him!

Yes, I still live in an old rusty Nova body and havent got my body trade in yet, only have a new spirit. so I do in fact sin off and on just like everyone else. Now I understand what Paul was talking about, it is the sin that lives in my flesh and not in my spirit. In my spirit I am born again. So (Lord help mine unbelief) but I am understanding that I am born again and have received a new spirit who is sinless and only trys to help overcome the soul & the flesh. which both of them stil want to sin. Good thing the Lord looks at the spirit of a man and not the flesh, eh?
 

MA2444

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2024
3,840
1,985
113
62
Columbus Ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
when you have prayed and asked for forgiveness and so have joined the Kingdom of God you do become a christian.

You wouldnt join join the military and then not identify with your comrades. They have names for that sort of thing. AWOL?

So you shouldnt think like that to the Lord and His Kingdom. If you are born again, then declare it. Dont hide from it. Scripture say shout it from the rooftops, lol. (I havent done that yet)
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

Ronald David Bruno

Well-Known Member
Nov 7, 2020
4,623
2,320
113
Southern
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Perhaps it is linked to the idea that "true" Christians don't question Christianity. ???
Souls are drawn to God coming from a state of blind ignorance, a spiritual void and emptiness with a myriad of questions/ doubts that in time are answered.
As babes, we do ask questions, it is normal. We pray and God gives us answers little by little, over much time ... a lifetime.
When I was drawn to God 33 years ago, it was a unique experience. God orchestrated people and events that came into my life that were beyond coincidence. He opened my eyes and I saw my life and the world differently. I found a good teaching church where the Pastor sorted things out. I learned over time, doubts and misunderstandings gradually dissolved but He is still teaching me.

You have many doubts and are struggling.
That you are seeking answers is good but you don't like the answers when people try to give them to you. It is this apparent anst, a rebelliousness because you haven't fully surrendered nor trust God!

In the beginning of a Christian's journey, we come to His throne and surrender. We realize and say in so many words, Lord my way is not working, I am willing to get off my throne and put you there, I see my sin and I ask for forgiveness. It is this humble willingness to turn away from our paths and follow Him in obedience. If you believe that He died for our sins and rose from the dead, put your faith in Him THEN YOU MUST DO WHAT HE SAYS. You cannot remain on your throne, hold onto your lifestyle/ ways, you must die to them.
This is the thing, people want to be the director of their own reality and future - but that is a delusional state of mind.

With all the numerous threads you have that reflect these doubts and misunderstandings, it seems you haven't gotten off your throne - that you still rebel and still want control and you just don't want to obey- so you question whether Jesus actually said this or that, whether the Bible is reliable, or is this just another manmade doctrine, a traditional created by man, bla, bla, bla and on and on you go.
Christians experience God actually changing their lives. They actually turn away from their old ways - and with certain things it takes more time. We like to hold onto some ways and say "Lord I surrender this, this and this and will stop doing that , but I need to hold onto this one thing ... please, don't make me give it up". People just love their sin and struggle to give it up. The Holy Spirit sanctified us! We need to trust Him and surrender it all. Let go and let God as they say.

SURRENDER ALL.
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,934
5,689
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You have many doubts and are struggling.
That you are seeking answers is good but you don't like the answers when people try to give them to you. It is this apparent anst, a rebelliousness because you haven't fully surrendered nor trust God!
I went through the same process other believers go through. I had questions and learned the apologetic answers.
But I now find myself dissatisfied with those apologetic answers. They are lacking. And I'm not alone.
Many believers are questioning the religion we were raised in.

With all the numerous threads you have that reflect these doubts and misunderstandings, it seems you haven't gotten off your throne - that you still rebel and still want control and you just don't want to obey- so you question whether Jesus actually said this or that, whether the Bible is reliable, or is this just another manmade doctrine, a traditional created by man, bla, bla, bla and on and on you go.
This book describes the process of life throwing curve-balls at us that challenge our faith.

1726778577590.jpeg

“Peter Enns is brilliant at taking the big topics, those Christian ideas that usually scare us or intimidate us or worry us, and then make those very places a meeting place with a God who is bigger and wilder and more wonderful and trustworthy than we ever could have guessed.”—Sarah Bessey, author of Out of Sorts and Jesus Feminist

The author of How the Bible Actually Works and The Bible Tells Me So explains how our model of God and faith must evolve as our understanding of the world deepens—just as the Bible describes it should.

Life throws us “curve balls”—from devastating personal losses to world tragedies. These events often leave us doubting God, the Bible, and our faith. But instead of pushing away our reservations, we should embrace them, Peter Enns argues. A leading biblical scholar and Christian mentor, Enns has never been afraid to question the Bible or Christian beliefs. Such thoughtful inquisitiveness, he argues, is part of God’s plan. He wants us to question, because doing so actually leads to a stronger, lasting faith.

By reframing how we see these events, we allow ourselves to see how the Bible itself showcases this very process and that “treating curve balls as the enemy” is not only counterproductive but thwarts God’s goal of helping us become mature and wise. Enns shares a number of curve balls he’s encountered in his own life and the questions he has pondered. Does God care about the millions of people who never heard the gospel? Could I relate to a God who has created a universe this big? If God is so relatable, constant, and caring, how do we explain quantum physics? He reveals how particular biblical passages have helped him find wisdom, and how they can do the same for us.

As Curveball persuasively shows, God is bigger and more mysterious than anyone’s expectations. We need a faith that can grow just as deeply.

[
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,934
5,689
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Have you ever tried asking the Holy Spirit these questions?
You assume that I am concerned about the answers. I'm not.

The questions are more important than the answers.
Which is a HUGE departure from my religious upbringing, when the answers were a god.

Leaving Room for Faith - why we don't know EVERYTHING

At one time I was bothered by the fact that we don't really have ALL the answers. There was always a loose end somewhere. I chased the apologetics in every direction, but always came up short somewhere. And frankly, I don't remember the specifics, only the moment of my release from the tyranny...

Theistic Agnosticism - The honesty to admit we don't know everything

...further. Being raised in the church, I was held in a bubble of "we have all the answers." Now that I am an adult, I realize the reason for that. We DIDN'T have all the questions. I know, I know... (who does?) What are the spiritual consequences for admitting that we don't know everything?

[
 

Ronald David Bruno

Well-Known Member
Nov 7, 2020
4,623
2,320
113
Southern
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I went through the same process other believers go through. I had questions and learned the apologetic answers.
But I now find myself dissatisfied with those apologetic answers. They are lacking. And I'm not alone.
Many believers are questioning the religion we were raised in.


This book describes the process of life throwing curve-balls at us that challenge our faith.

View attachment 50126

“Peter Enns is brilliant at taking the big topics, those Christian ideas that usually scare us or intimidate us or worry us, and then make those very places a meeting place with a God who is bigger and wilder and more wonderful and trustworthy than we ever could have guessed.”—Sarah Bessey, author of Out of Sorts and Jesus Feminist

The author of How the Bible Actually Works and The Bible Tells Me So explains how our model of God and faith must evolve as our understanding of the world deepens—just as the Bible describes it should.

Life throws us “curve balls”—from devastating personal losses to world tragedies. These events often leave us doubting God, the Bible, and our faith. But instead of pushing away our reservations, we should embrace them, Peter Enns argues. A leading biblical scholar and Christian mentor, Enns has never been afraid to question the Bible or Christian beliefs. Such thoughtful inquisitiveness, he argues, is part of God’s plan. He wants us to question, because doing so actually leads to a stronger, lasting faith.

By reframing how we see these events, we allow ourselves to see how the Bible itself showcases this very process and that “treating curve balls as the enemy” is not only counterproductive but thwarts God’s goal of helping us become mature and wise. Enns shares a number of curve balls he’s encountered in his own life and the questions he has pondered. Does God care about the millions of people who never heard the gospel? Could I relate to a God who has created a universe this big? If God is so relatable, constant, and caring, how do we explain quantum physics? He reveals how particular biblical passages have helped him find wisdom, and how they can do the same for us.

As Curveball persuasively shows, God is bigger and more mysterious than anyone’s expectations. We need a faith that can grow just as deeply.

[
I'm wondering if you are getting all your doubts about the Bible, the fundamentals, from Peter Enns? He could be the one throwing you curve balls.
Of course God tests our faith. Bad things happen to good people. But the knowledge and wisdom is there in the Bible. We do learn from experiences and usually have to go through them. Then we confirm what was written, we gain deeper meaning of thise scriptures.
Be careful of writers that detour you away from the Bible and rely only on their experiences. You know what that does? It allows you to do whatever you want, hold onto your sins, remain on your throne, and deceive you in thinking you are growing with God. If that was true, all other religions claim their faith is valid.

Peter Enns holds various significant narratives in Genesis and in the New Testament to be ‘myth’ or ‘legend’ according to its classic definition, and that he acknowledges that the biblical writers mistakenly thought such ‘myths’ corresponded to real past reality.

>> Here is a quite from him:
"Letting go of the need for certainty is more than just a decision about how we think; it’s a decision about how we want to live. When the quest for finding and holding on to certainty is central to our faith, our lives are marked by traits we wouldn’t necessarily value in others: unflappable dogmatic certainty, vigilant monitoring of who’s in and
who’s out, preoccupation with winning debates and defending the faith, privileging the finality of logical arguments, conforming unquestionably to intellectual authorities and celebrities. A faith like that is in constant battle mode…and soon, you forget what faith looks like when you’re not fighting about it.”

Sorry, I disagree with his negative view of our holding onto the certainty of life. Of course we have Christian traits. We see light and darkness in the world, are aware of sin and avoid it. Yes, we do rebuke it in others at the same time we die to our old ways ourselves.
I think he is trying to redefine faith and steer people away from scripture - since it's filled with "man made myths" that we can't rely on.

Hebrews 11:1 tells us that faith is the assurance and certainty of things hoped for, things that we can't see.
Check out different translations of that verse.

“Great faith” means you believe ( which means you accept) many of the truths in the Bible; whereas those with “Little faith” are in the beginning of their journey, or just have difficulty accepting many of them. We accept them even when we don't fully inderstand them. Every promise, historical fact, doctrine, prophecy ... the entire Bible!. Some truths are easy to believe while others are difficult. If you believe something that is difficult to believe, then you have great faith. If you do not believe something that is relatively easy to believe, then you have little faith.

Since faith is the conviction or persuasion that something is true, people who have little faith have not been persuaded or convinced of even the basic truths, whereas, people who have great faith have been persuaded or convinced of some of the hard and difficult truths which few people come to believe.

We can then say that we ( who have faith in Christ) are all on the same path, just on different stages of our beliefs. These truths take time to grasp. Also there are different levels of intelligence. Therefore comprehension levels vary. We all don't grasp every doctrine equally. Like all kids in school don't get straight A's. So we must accept that some will have weak faith.
There are other factors that will determine our level of faith. First of all, Jesus is the Author of our faith and so He divvies out various portions of faith in accordance to His plan.
He obviously gave more faith, talents, spiritual gifts and intelligence to Billy Graham than he did me. That's fine, I wasn't called to be a Pastor to do great things. Time studying the Word, watering the seed that was planted, praying, and so one can grow at a faster rate than someone who didn't nourish his spirit.
We have a responsibility to be proactive, learn, attend church, study the Bible, seek God with all our heart, mind and strength.
I hold onto my certainty, I am assured and have a strong conviction about the Word.
It is okay to read commentaries to help us understand the Bible, but nit ti steer us away from it. Some of these writers are liberal, they like to pick and choose which scriptures they like and accept and discard ones that just don't fit into their world view and life.
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,934
5,689
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm wondering if you are getting all your doubts about the Bible, the fundamentals, from Peter Enns?
No. I was raised evangelical. That's where my Bible fundamentals (fundamentalism) came from.
Peter Enns has been helpful in processing my problems with my religious upbringing.
He has encountered some of the same sorts of things that I have.
And is much better equipped to analyze them. I have given this considerable thought.

Deconstruction, or Reconstruction - Renovating Your Religious Views

...https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/is-there-a-cure-for-my-religious-upbringing-other-than-atheism-i-mean.56346/ Therefore, I wanted to approach this topic from a more positive and constructive view. Anyone familiar with a major home renovation project knows that some deconstruction...

Plundering my religious upbringing - The desert island question

While composing a response post on another thread (obviously) it occurred to me the benefits I received from my religious upbringing. I spend plenty of time talking against it now, but only occasionally speak to the benefits. Others may have taken a similar path. Started in one place and...

The Bliss of Religious Homeostasis - Don't Rock the Boat

...a concept when the descriptor "homeostasis" came to mind. There is a stability, whether real or imagined, that comes with alignment to religious beliefs. And it doesn't seem to matter what religion, or what sector of Christianity. Full acceptance of what you are taught brings closure...

Is there a cure for my religious upbringing? - other than atheism, I mean.

Hello deconstruction. Atheism, is the obvious over-reaction to escaping a religious upbringing. Study on this issue shows people going in many different directions both toward and away from religion. This video outlines the frustration involved in deconstruction. Let's discuss.

Choice of doctrine is driven by religious preconception - Spirituality is an individualized journey

Seems that biblical understanding has more to do with religious upbringing and environment than the content of the Bible. I imagine that a young Catholic learns that Mary is the Mother of God based on the statement of the angel, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.” -...

[
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,934
5,689
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed reply.
Peter Enns holds various significant narratives in Genesis and in the New Testament to be ‘myth’ or ‘legend’ according to its classic definition, and that he acknowledges that the biblical writers mistakenly thought such ‘myths’ corresponded to real past reality.
That statement is both false and contradictory. How could "the biblical writers" have "mistakenly thought such ‘myths’ corresponded to real past reality"? Did the the biblical writers view the narratives as myth or as "real past reality"? You can't have it both ways.

>> Here is a quite from him:
"Letting go of the need for certainty is more than just a decision about how we think; it’s a decision about how we want to live. When the quest for finding and holding on to certainty is central to our faith, our lives are marked by traits we wouldn’t necessarily value in others: unflappable dogmatic certainty, vigilant monitoring of who’s in and
who’s out, preoccupation with winning debates and defending the faith, privileging the finality of logical arguments, conforming unquestionably to intellectual authorities and celebrities. A faith like that is in constant battle mode…and soon, you forget what faith looks like when you’re not fighting about it.”
I agree with Peter Enns on this.
The certainty cult is "marked by traits we wouldn’t necessarily value in others".
- "unflappable dogmatic certainty,
- vigilant monitoring of who’s in and who’s out,
- preoccupation with winning debates and defending the faith,
- privileging the finality of logical arguments,
- conforming unquestionably to intellectual authorities and celebrities."

"A faith like that is in constant battle mode…and soon, you forget what faith looks like
when you’re not fighting about it.” - Peter Enns

I think he is trying to redefine faith and steer people away from scripture - since it's filled with "man made myths" that we can't rely on.
Not true.

1726837278851.jpeg

Hebrews 11:1 tells us that faith is the assurance and certainty of things hoped for, things that we can't see.
Check out different translations of that verse.
Right. "things that we can't see."

Since faith is the conviction or persuasion that something is true, people who have little faith have not been persuaded or convinced of even the basic truths, whereas, people who have great faith have been persuaded or convinced of some of the hard and difficult truths which few people come to believe.
Which group is more gullible?

We can then say that we ( who have faith in Christ) are all on the same path, just on different stages of our beliefs.
Are you claiming that either Peter Enns or myself do NOT have faith in Christ?

Some of these writers are liberal, they like to pick and choose which scriptures they like and accept and discard ones that just don't fit into their world view and life.
Peter Enns strikes me as conservative, not liberal. He isn't espousing liberal theology. IMHO

[
 

Ronald David Bruno

Well-Known Member
Nov 7, 2020
4,623
2,320
113
Southern
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No. I was raised evangelical. That's where my Bible fundamentals (fundamentalism) came from.
Peter Enns has been helpful in processing my problems with my religious upbringing.
He has encountered some of the same sorts of things that I have.
And is much better equipped to analyze them. I have given this considerable thought.

Deconstruction, or Reconstruction - Renovating Your Religious Views

...https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/is-there-a-cure-for-my-religious-upbringing-other-than-atheism-i-mean.56346/ Therefore, I wanted to approach this topic from a more positive and constructive view. Anyone familiar with a major home renovation project knows that some deconstruction...

Plundering my religious upbringing - The desert island question

While composing a response post on another thread (obviously) it occurred to me the benefits I received from my religious upbringing. I spend plenty of time talking against it now, but only occasionally speak to the benefits. Others may have taken a similar path. Started in one place and...

The Bliss of Religious Homeostasis - Don't Rock the Boat

...a concept when the descriptor "homeostasis" came to mind. There is a stability, whether real or imagined, that comes with alignment to religious beliefs. And it doesn't seem to matter what religion, or what sector of Christianity. Full acceptance of what you are taught brings closure...

Is there a cure for my religious upbringing? - other than atheism, I mean.

Hello deconstruction. Atheism, is the obvious over-reaction to escaping a religious upbringing. Study on this issue shows people going in many different directions both toward and away from religion. This video outlines the frustration involved in deconstruction. Let's discuss.

Choice of doctrine is driven by religious preconception - Spirituality is an individualized journey

Seems that biblical understanding has more to do with religious upbringing and environment than the content of the Bible. I imagine that a young Catholic learns that Mary is the Mother of God based on the statement of the angel, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.” -...
What religious upbringing was so wrong that you needed to deconstruct it? Did your parents lead you astray?

I didn't have a religious upbringing as a child, my parents weren't religious. I didn't become a Christian until I was 35.
Then I found good churches, I guess you didn't have one. Maybe it was legalistic or had other problems. There are good churches and bad. Rev. 2 & 3 discuss church types that have e been around since the beginning. Only two of those churches were good, but most of them needed rebuke, they had sin and needed to repent. And so today we have churches, faithful churches loke Philadelphia, persecuted churches like Smyrna, dead churches, corrupt, materialistic and sinful, etc.
I was fortunate to be led to good, faithful church. They loved me and I loved my Pastor, he was gifted. No need to deconstruct any of what I was taught.
Besides, we don't really need a teacher, we have the Holy Spirit ... well some of us do.
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,934
5,689
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What religious upbringing was so wrong that you needed to deconstruct it? Did your parents lead you astray?
That's a good question, thanks.

I was raised in an excellent church. I have no ill-will or problems with them because they were genuine.
They were who they said they were. I am still on good terms with those I grew up with there.
The church itself is completely different now. Everyone moved away or passed on. (in the 1980s)

I "received" Christ at Summer Bible camp when I was 8 years old. (61 years ago)

The church was a non-denominational evangelical, world missions focused community church.
I was confirmed and baptized in that church. Bible study, evangelism and Apologetics were important.
They elected me to the Elder board at a young age. I was an adult Bible/Sunday School teacher.
The men in the church had a class to learn the Greek alphabet so that we could use a lexicon.
(Alpha, beta, delta, gamma, epsilon...) I went on a Summer-long missions trip to Europe.
And was active in a Gideon's prison ministry. My father was the leader/teacher.
I filled in for him when he went south for the winter.
I write none of this to brag, I just want you to understand my background.

When I met my wife, we were both interested in things Charismatic/Pentecostal.
There was no support for that in any evangelical church. Not that I expected there to be.
That ended my relationship with the evangelical church.

In terms of deconstruction/reconstruction...
The lynch-pin doctrine for me was the "forever burning hell" position.
Which is present in most Christian churches. This led to questioning everything.

I still attend church. I have been a faithful participant most of my life.

Ultimately, it's not a matter of who is right and who is wrong.
I need to follow my convictions. Especially as it concerns the character of God.

[
 
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus and Lambano

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,934
5,689
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There was a time that I wasnt sure if I was comfortable with calling myself a Christian. Because as I understand it, the word Christian technically means, Christ-like...And I didnt feel very Christlike.
Jordan Peterson said (something like) it would be audacious for anyone to claim that they were a Christ follower.

I still used the term and called myself a Christian to people. It's a term that we use to show to the world whose camp we are of.
Right.

Now before you go and start getting yourself into a hissy read on!
Is that what I do? - LOL

[
 

MA2444

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2024
3,840
1,985
113
62
Columbus Ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jordan Peterson said (something like) it would be audacious for anyone to claim that they were a Christ follower.

In a analogus sort of way I can see that. Because all have sinned and fall short.

Good thing it's not about how we finish the game but how we play the game!
Isnt that right? The Lord doesnt cast people aside for making mistakes. He looks at the heart and intenions of our heart. And if we continue to cling to Him and repent of our mistakes...and learn.

Yeah it is sort of audacious. The Lord said Be ye Holy even as I am Holy...
How many of the Holy ones are there? There is none Holy on this board, no not one. But we want to be and strive for it. I will be better today than I was yesterday.
When you stop being better, you stop being good.

Is that what I do? - LOL

Noo. That was just to the general reading audience. As far as the people that I have had disagreements with, you're fairly tame to some of them guys!
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

Ronald David Bruno

Well-Known Member
Nov 7, 2020
4,623
2,320
113
Southern
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In terms of deconstruction/reconstruction...
The lynch-pin doctrine for me was the "forever burning hell" position.
Which is present in most Christian churches. This led to questioning everything.
The traditional view of Eternal Hell disturbed me too. It led me to write a book with two chapters focusing on the nature of Hell:. " Hell ... If I Know".
Just. becuse I questioned that doctrine ( also taught in my faithful church led by a brilliant Pastor; ( doesn't mean every other doctrine is suspect too.

The question of thw duration of Hell really boils down to one word, aionios, which has variable meanings.
When applied to God and His domain, it means without beginning and without end. Our salvation can be included in the forward direction, it's infinite; but had a beggining. When applied to temporal things that will pass away, anionios means (ages, lifetimes, epoch, generations, world).
Hades is not Hell, (which is the Lake of Fire). Hades and everyone in it and Death will someday be cast into the Lake of Fire and destroyed. That is another interesting word. You can't destroy something for ages and ages without end. That would be an indestructible destruction, an imperishable perishing. It would change the meaning of the word. It means to put an end to - however long that takes. But my contention is that something thrown into a 2,000+ degree lava lake burns in seconds - it's destroyed quickly.
Anyways I'm not going to give you two chapters worth of my view; I just wanted to make a point. I think Martin Luther had a problem with the concept of "eternal Hell, but Calvin discouraged him from going there. He was more concerned about the now and immediate exposure of the Catholic Church's selling indulgences, which was mainly what his 95 Thesis was about. I was actually surprised when I finally read it. I thought it contained criticisms of numerous doctrines and practices.
I loved my church, but still questioned some things taught, ( of which I disagreed with about 2 %). Doesn't mean you throw out the baby with the bath water.
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,934
5,689
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Good thing it's not about how we finish the game but how we play the game!
Isnt that right?
I think it is not about us at all, if you are referring to ultimate redemption.
There will be both rewards and consequences for our actions, of course. An age of restoration for both sides of the chasm.

As far as the people that I have had disagreements with, you're fairly tame to some of them guys!
I need to UP my game. - LOL

[
 
Last edited:
  • Haha
Reactions: Lambano and MA2444

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,934
5,689
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Interestingly enough, when my brother was in seminary, Enns ("Inspiration and Incarnation") was required reading.
Yes. He's really a good guy.
I was glad to see that he was one of the five authors of Five Views on Biblical Inerrancy. (Zondervan Publishers)
Was also pleased that Zondervan Publishers provided such a book on the subject.


[
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,934
5,689
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I loved my church, but still questioned some things taught, ( of which I disagreed with about 2 %). Doesn't mean you throw out the baby with the bath water.
Thanks for your reply.
I think it is a sign of spiritual maturity when you decide for yourself what you believe. Take a stand.
As soon as I had read the whole Bible and created my own chain reference notes in it (broke the binding)
I started to notice teachings that didn't align with my understanding of the Bible.
Especially in the area of spiritual gifts.

My Mom and Dad used to attend Charismatic meetings with some church friends.
And my Mom had collected shoe boxes full of message cassette tapes.
I used to borrow tapes by the box full and return them for more, until I had listened to all of them.
My introduction to John Wimber and Vineyard Ministries.

My parents were never totally onboard with Charismatic doctrine, but their best friends were.

[