Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.

[QuantumBit]

Give it up Pat, you have ZERO Scripture to back you. None! "Eternal life" is FOREVER and so is "eternal punishment".

Eternal Life and Eternal Punishments are locations, not states of being.

One can enter or leave either one if so desired. Free will is infinite.

The Key Word is 'into'...

Matthew 25:46
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

 

[Patrick1966]

Free will is infinite.

Tell that to Jonah. ;)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

Universalism (Liberalism) is not even worthy as a discussion or debate because it is too gross of a distortion of the Bible, and fair justice to the point of making a person not even care about God and His good ways. Universalism’s version of Purgatory is not going to deter people to want to live for God. In Universalism: If all people are going to be saved in the end, they are going to desire to live it up and take their chances and yet also take comfort that they will also be in Heaven someday no matter what they believe and or how they live. In Universalism: Fair justice does not matter. In Universalism: The believer who suffers for Christ will be next to the person who spit in Christ’s face. What you do does not really utlimately matter in Universalism. It’s just silly and not even worthy to be discussed. Liberalism or Univeralism should be rebuked sharply, and their adherents should not be given the time of day. It’s a belief that will lead people down the road of unbelief and sin.

ECT Believers and Conditional Immortality Christians should be ashamed of themselves if they seek to even debate Universalists or consider Universalism a viewpoint that should even be on the table of discussion. It’s a gross error that quickly leads others down the path of destruction, and not God’s good ways. It’s like Christians who told me that porn is not a sin. Their belief is not valid and or worthy to be discussed or debated because they are in gross error. They should be rebuked sharply with God’s Word and we should not give them a platform or any kind of credence to their belief. It means nothing in light of the Word of God and His good ways.

I say this all in love of course.
But gross errors should not be debated.
The Bible and one being born again sometimes just makes certain things obvious that some things are wrong.

 

[Patrick1966]

[/QUOTE]

we should not give them a platform or any kind of credence to their belief.

The ultimate in arrogance. Ban everyone that doesn't goose-step to your belief system. The Pharisees, Hitler, Stalin, and Mao all agree with your ideology. Congratulations.

 

[Patrick1966]

If all people are going to be saved in the end, they are going to desire to live it up and take their chances and yet also take comfort that they will also be in Heaven someday no matter what...

Yea?

What if God told you that he's going to stick your testicles into a vice-grip and slowly CRUSH your testicles once per minute, day and night, for 350 years IF you are unfaithful in this life. Would you go ahead and, as you say, "live it up" knowing that, after the 350 years of brutal torture, that you would eventually be saved?

Your remark is astoundingly ignorant and you are the absolute LAST person on this forum that should EVER determine who can and cannot post. You must be a Democrat.

 

[Patrick1966]

It’s like Christians who told me that porn is not a sin.

Yea, that's EXACTLY the same as telling people that...

1 John 2:2 ESV He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Patrick1966]

I say this all in love of course.

 

[Patrick1966]

Can somebody read this to "Bible Highlighter", please?

2 Corinthians 5:19
that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Biblical Metaphors and the Test From God
(To See If You Truly Believe He is Fair and Good)

I believe this topic is a test—a test from God. God wants people to believe that He is good and He is into fair justice.
In fact, we see from the Scriptures that a person having a mindset of wooden literalism can be dangerous.

Jesus said,

53 “Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.​

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.​

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.​

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.“ (John 6:53-56).​

The disciples who understood Jesus as speaking in the form of wooden literalism said,

“This is an hard saying; who can hear it?” (John 6:60).​

Then a few verses later, this happened:

“From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.” (John 6:66).​

Granted, I am not saying that just because you believe in ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment), you are going to stop following Jesus. Conditional Immortality is about the fair justice of God and His goodness. But if you hold to ECT, I do believe you are failing the test of God on trusting that He is into fair justice and that He is good (Which will definitely lead God to rebuke you).

The Bible has metaphors (or similitudes) within it.

For Hosea 12:10 says,

"I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets."​

To not understand the Bible's metaphors is to be in confusion about what God's Word really says. Most Christians agree that the metaphor "knew" concerning a man and a woman in the Bible can sometimes be about sex; Most Christians believe the words "slept with his fathers" is defined as death (See examples here and here at BlueLetterBible). It is just like in Revelation. The seven heads are seven mountains (Revelation 17:9) which was an earlier description of the seven-headed scarlet-colored beast in Revelation 17:3. So the Bible uses metaphor to help us to gain an understanding of what it is really talking about.

Again, there are only 5 major verses that appear to teach Eternal Conscious Torment. Three of those verses can be explained without employing metaphor, and 2 of them employ metaphor (Which is obvious if one is a good Berean comparing Scripture with Scripture and using basic logic and reason). Conditional Immortality is the view that God will destroy the wicked in the Lake of Fire, and the last enemy to be destroyed (annihilated) is death. Just as before death, there are other enemies of God that need to be destroyed, too. Destroyed is something that the ECT Christian has to twist or change. They don’t like 2 Thessalonians 1:9, and they have no real good reason or grounds to change it to be a metaphor. So when we are accused of taking the words “for ever” etcetera in Revelation 14:11 and Revelation 20:10 as being a metaphor (By comparing Scripture with Scripture), they do not realize that they are also employing metaphor whereby we Conditional Immortality Christians would read those verses plainly and literally. Destroy and death mean exactly what they say, and they are not metaphors.

Isaiah 34:10 holds the key to understanding the words “night and day” and “for ever, and ever” in Revelation 14:11 and Revelation 20:10.
In Isaiah 34:10, we learn that the city of Edom is on fire night and day, and its smoke is going up forever and ever. But does this mean for all eternity? No. Because Jesus said Heaven and Earth shall pass away (Matthew 24:35). Revelation says, I quote: “…and the first earth were passed away;” (Revelation 21:1). So if the Earth willl pass away, then how can the city of Edom pour out its smoke for all eternity? It cannot. So unless you believe the city of Edom will pour its smoke into outer space with having its own atmosphere, we must conclude that the words “night and day” and “for ever, and ever” are a metaphor for destruction.

But if you are hung up on wooden literalism, the word “ever” can also be defined as: To great extent or degree.

Source:

The American Heritage Dictionary entry: ever

The American Heritage Dictionary entry: ever

ahdictionary.com

(American Heritage Dictionary - 3rd definition).

So there is no more excuse not to pass the test of God anymore.
I have provided a way of escape for you not to be rebuked by the LORD.

May the Lord Jesus Christ bless you all.

 

[Patrick1966]

Biblical Metaphors and the Test From God
(To See If You Truly Believe He is Fair and Good)

I believe this topic is a test. A test from God. God wants people to believe that He is good, and He is into fair justice.
In fact, we see from the Scriptures that a person having a mindset of wooden literalism can be dangerous.

Jesus said,

53 “Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.​

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.​

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.​

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.“ (John 6:53-56).​

The disciples who understood Jesus as speaking in a form of wooden literalism said,

“This is an hard saying; who can hear it?” (John 6:60).​

Then a few verses later, this happened:

“From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.” (John 6:66).​

Granted, I am not saying that just because you believe in ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment), you are going to stop following Jesus. Conditional Immortality is about the fair justice of God and His goodness. But if you hold to ECT, I do believe you are failing the test of God on trusting that He is into fair justice and that He is good (Which will definitely lead God to rebuking you).

The Bible has metaphors (or similitudes) within it.

For Hosea 12:10 says,

"I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets."​

To not understand the Bible's metaphors is to be in confusion to what God's Word really says. Most Christians agree that the metaphor "knew" in relation to a man and a woman in the Bible can sometimes be in reference to sex; Most Christians believe the words, "slept with his fathers" is defined as death (See examples here, and here at BlueLetterBible). It is just like in Revelation. The seven heads are seven mountains (Revelation 17:9) which was an earlier description of the seven headed scarlet colored beast in Revelation 17:3. So the Bible uses metaphor to help us to gain an understanding of what it is really talking about.

Again, there are only 5 verses that appear to teach Eternal Conscious Torment. Three of those verses can be explained without employing metaphor, and 2 of them do employ metaphor (Which is obvious if one is a good Berean comparing Scripture with Scripture and by using basic logic and reason). Conditional Immortality is the view that God will destroy the wicked in the Lake of Fire and the last enemy to be destroyed (annihilated) is death. Just as before death there are other enemies of God that need to be destroyed, too. Destroyed is something that the ECT Christian has to twist or change. They don’t l ike 2 Thessalonians 1:9 and they have no real good reason or grounds to change it to be a metaphor. So when we are accused of taking the words “for ever” etcetera in Revelation 14:11, and Revelation 20:10 as being a metaphor (By comparing Scripture with Scripture), they do not realize that they are also employing metaphor whereby we Conditional Immortality Christians would read those verses plainly and literally. Destroy and death mean exactly what they say, and they are not metaphors.

Isaiah 34:10 holds the key to understanding the words “night and day” and “for ever, and ever” in Revelation 14:11, and Revelation 20:10.
In Isaiah 34:10, we learn that the city of Edom is on fire night and day, and its smoke is going up forever and ever. But does this mean for all eternity? No. Because Jesus said Heaven and Earth shall pass away (Matthew 24:35). Revelation says, I quote: “…and the first earth were passed away;” (Revelation 21:1). So if the Earth willl passed away, then how can the city of Edom pour out its smoke for all eternity? It cannot. So unless you believe the city of Edom will pour its smoke in outerspace with having its own atmosphere, we must conclude that the words “night and day” and “for ever, and ever” are a metaphor for destruction.

But if you are hung up on wooden literalism, the word “ever” can be defined also as: To great extent or degree.

Source:

The American Heritage Dictionary entry: ever

The American Heritage Dictionary entry: ever

ahdictionary.com

(American Heritage Dictionary - 3rd definition).

So there is no more excuse to not pass the test of God anymore.
I have provided a way of escape for you to not be rebuked by the LORD.

Your beliefs are dangerous. You need to be banned!

Just kidding. Lol.

 

[Patrick1966]

I have provided a way of escape for you to not be rebuked by the LORD.

So proud and haughty. Thinking themselves wise...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

Just so that everyone here may know, one of my old write-ups on another forum was the inspiration behind my recent post.

Biblical Metaphors Shed Light on Ham's Sin in Noah's Tent.

Biblical Metaphors Shed Light on Ham's Sin in Noah's Tent. Introduction: The Bible has metaphors (or similitudes) within it. For Hosea 12:10 says, "I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets." To not understand...

www.christianforums.com

May the Lord Jesus Christ and His good ways shine upon you all.

 

[Patrick1966]

God refines us in this life and in the next. We are all being tormented (tested) and those of us who look th Christ are saved from the Lake of Fire and enjoy the treasures of Heaven while awaiting our physical resurrection on the last day.

Everyone else is dead in the ground until the judgment. Thereafter we are told that some will be cast into the crucible figuratively known as the "Lake of Fire". There, souls will be punished but it is a restorative and purifying punishment. In the very end, after Jesus has put ALL enemies under his feet, he will give ALL mankind to God.

This is ALL scriptural, although many lack the ability to discern.

 

[Patrick1966]

To all:

Just so that everyone here may know, one of my old write-ups on another forum was the inspiration behind my recent post.

Biblical Metaphors Shed Light on Ham's Sin in Noah's Tent.

Biblical Metaphors Shed Light on Ham's Sin in Noah's Tent. Introduction: The Bible has metaphors (or similitudes) within it. For Hosea 12:10 says, "I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets." To not understand...

www.christianforums.com

May the Lord Jesus Christ and His good ways shine upon you all.

I wouldn't trust your "discernment" on anything.

 

[Patrick1966]

The "God is a sadistic torturer" believers think that God has people tortured day and night FOREVER and for what purpose? According to them, there is no purpose, other than God loves torturing people.

And it's all based on the mistranslation of the Greek word aion (and its variants) and those mistranslations actually cause those particular Bibles to CONTRADICT themselves.

How can one verse say that Jesus is the savior of ALL people while another says that some people suffer FOREVER in "Hell"?

There is no rational discussion with those that spew this false doctrine. They are married to the doctrine that God tortures people FOREVER and they won't back off of that position because they're too proud, vain, haughty, and FOOLISH to do so.

 

[keithr]

And Christians know that Jesus taught more about Hell fire than eternal life.

I don't believe it. I challenge you to prove that.

Jesus taught more about the kingdom of God and eternal life than he did about hell and burning in fire, and more about Gehenna than hades - he only mentions hades four times, whereas he mentions the kingdom of God around a hundred times.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

….

 

[keithr]

Hey, just curious.
Do you believe in the Godhead (Trinity)?

No, I don't believe in the Trinity.

 

[keithr]

How can one verse say that Jesus is the savior of ALL people while another says that some people suffer FOREVER in "Hell"?

It's amazing how people can be very familar with a verse, and yet seem blind to what it says. I'm thinking in particular about John 3:16 (KJV), the most famous verse in the Bible (according to Most popular Bible verse in the world):

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.​

It seems like people latch onto "God so loved the world" and "whosoever believeth in him ... have everlasting life", but they seem blind to "should not perish". The Greek word that is translated as "perish" is apollumi, which according to Strong's Greek Lexicon means "to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish". That's what the Bible is all about - everyone is doomed to perish (die and be fully destroyed and therefore no longer exist) and God's plan is to save everyone whose will is to be saved. It is not God's plan to sadistically torture people with fire for all eternity.

 

[Jack]

See, rather than deal with the actual points I made, you just make a comment or opinion like you are right with no actual need of defense or evidence for your position.

It's a matter whether you believe Jesus or your church. I'll stick with Jesus.

Matthew 25
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.