Do you or do you not believe the Bible is the written Word of God? Your smokescreen is quite evident. If you don't answer "yes" then you do not!
Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.
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Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
First, you have to think that the predominant view in Christianity for hundreds of years is ECT. However, what is always popular is not always true. We know this because Jesus had a problem with the religious authorities (Who were popular) during His time. But please consider that any recent Lexicon or Original Languages Dictionary is going to be influenced and or defined by them. They have a bias to a belief they prefer. So we have to look strictly at what the Word of God says, and what English dictionaries (that are little less biased). For example: the English dictionary defines the word “ever” also as meaning, “to great extent or degree.” So when Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire and is tormented day and night, it could be defined as to a great extent, and degree (if we are to look at the other definitions for the word “ever” in Revelation 20:10).
Second, you have to ignore and or change the plain reading of these verses below in Scripture.
- The Tree in the Garden (See here).
- Revelation 21:8 says that the Lake of Fire is the Second Death. The Second Death is related to the First Death. But in ECT this is not the case; They are not really related.
- Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body..." (Matthew 10:28). In this verse Jesus compares to not be afraid of those who kill (destroy) the body, but be afraid of the One (Jesus) who can destroy the soul. The parallel is destroyed in ECT.
- There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy" (James 4:12). Save AND DESTROY. But in ECT, the word “destroy” does not really mean, “destroy.”
- "...who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Tim 1:10). In ECT, there is no immortality through the gospel. Everyone is either already immortal or they will be immortal regardless of the gospel.
- Jesus (God) alone has immortality-anyone else becomes immortal only as a result of God's gracious gift (1 Timothy 6:16, Romans 2:7). Yet, in ECT this is not the case.
- To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: (Romans 2:7). Yet, in ECT, Why are we told to seek after eternal life if everyone is already going to live eternally?
- Jude 1:7 - eternal fire. Just because the fire is “eternal fire” does that mean Sodom and Gomorrha is still burning today? Certainly not. But ECT Proponents just brush this truth aside and put their fingers intheir ears and move on (With them not really dealing with the truth).
- Hebrews 6:2 says there is an “eternal judgment.” Does that mean that God is going to judging saved and unsaved for a finite amount of people for all eternity? Surely not. So then to say that “everlasting” (or eternal) punishment must be interpreted in the same way is silly (Especially when there are Conditional Immortality verses that ECT proponents love to ignore or twist).
- I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. (John 6:51). Again, in ECT, these words by our Lord Jesus do not really mean anything. Why should we care if we live forever if everyone is going to live forever anyways? It doesn’t make any sense.
- Whose end is destruction, (Philippians 3:19). Yet, in ECT, they don’t believe the the wicked will have an end that is destruction.
- 2 Thessalonians 1:9-Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction. In ECT, they don’t believe this word “destruction” is to be read literally. They somehow favor a God who punishes people way beyond what the crime calls for.
- Hebrews 10:39-But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition. (Greek: perdion means “destruction”).
- , "He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal." John 12:25. Again, how can one really lose his life if they live eternally in conscious torment in fire? Technically their life is not lost in ECT.
- For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23). In ECT, death is not really the wages of sin because they will live forever. In ECT, eternal life is not really a gift of eternal life because everyone will have eternal life regardless of whether they receive the gift of eternal life or not. So more twisting or ignoring of Scripture is involved if one believes in ECT.
Three, ECT cannot be made into a parable or real world example. The Canaanite woman said to Jesus that even the dogs eat the crumbs from the table. She was using a real example to illusrate a spiritual truth. So this means we can also make real world examples (parables) to illustrate a spiritual truth that God teaches. Seeing, ECT cannot be demonstrated as being fair justice by way of real world example, we must conclude that it is a false doctrine that is seekign to malign the good chracter of God.
Four, I make more of a comprehesive defense of Conditional Immortality in this thread (on another forum) here:
A Defense of Dualistic Conditional Immortality
Introduction: I believe in “Dualistic Conditional Immortality,” and not “Traditional Conditional Immortality.” I used to believe in “Eternal Torment” (i.e. Eternal Conscious Torment) and even defended it at one time, but I have come to find this belief to be both unbiblical and immoral. I...www.christianforums.com
He did indeed. He made it perfectly clear.
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
I don't think you're qualified to say that all of our Bibles are wrong. Are you a Greek expert?
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
Of course they're mistranslations as evidenced by the plethora of scripture that says that ALL mankind will be with God in the end.
How do you reconcile one verse that says that Jesus is the savior of ALL mankind while another verse says that Jesus tortures people for eternity?
You didn't learn that from the Bible, so where? The parts you don't like are mistranslations?
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
I've shared a mountain of scripture with you and you ignore it all. Enjoy the rest of your day.
ALL of our English Bibles say you're wrong! Including Young's that you like so much.
Show that for us please. What should the correct translation be? Based on what?
Much love!
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
I know I'm wasting my time but here you go.
Revelation 20:10 YLT
10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.
Did you read Luke 16 in the YLT? It says you're wrong. You're picking and choosing the parts you like.
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And the other passage?
On this one . . .
"into the ages of the ages", eis tous aionas to aionon, how does that not mean for ever and ever to you? Into the "stretches of time" that are of the "stretches of time". This is forever, like saying, the epoches that have all the epochs. Like, no matter how you divide up time, this is the divisions that encompass all the divisions.
So on the one hand, you present a more literal word for word translation, but on the other, you don't seem to know what those words mean in context.
Much love!
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
The Bible is the written Word of God. But that ddoes not mean all words in the Bible are His own words. Again, do you believe that when the apostle John, said, “Come Lord Jesus” that it was words that the apostle John said or it was Jesus speaking? I answered your question, and now it is your turn to answer mine.
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Huh? lol
John wrote what Jesus told him to write. It's still the Words of Jesus. Jesus is God Almighty!
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
No, it's not.
God works on us in ages. The ages will end when we ALL go to be with God in his kingdom as described in 1 Corinthians 15.
Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God[c] has put all things in subjection under his feet.”
Satan sends his messengers to convince us that their is no "everlasting fire" that Jesus warned us about. He wants your company "forever and ever"!
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
You're undoubtedly going to be seething in anger when you are in God's kingdom and you see that God healed and saved EVERYONE!
Will you march to God's throne to complain?
Just the same, "into the ages of the ages" means what I've said. This is the "periods of time that contain the periods of time", or in other words, the Koine Greek expression of forever.
If you define these words according to your theological conclusions you'll reach the wrong sum. God works in ages, God doesn't work in ages, no matter what you say in that regard, it doesn't change the meaning of the words.
Did you want to look at the Matthew passage you are saying is mistranslated?
Much love!
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