Why faith alone? The answer...

[Jabre]

People go on debate and go through loops to prove or disprove faith alone for salvation, baptism being needed, or less commonly if turning from sin "in sincere repentance as possible" is needed.

Let me (hopefully) shut this down with one verse:

Genesis 15:6
"Then he believed in the LORD, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

The Hebrew for "believed" is וְהֶאֱמִ֖ן(wəhe’ĕmin). This word only appears in this verse, and it has only one meaning in any context: Full faith and resolute conviction of something being true.

There's no room in this word for "If they truly believe they'll-" or "Faith and this are needed:-". If we're to have Scripture not contradict, we must accept this, and accept that in reality, these systems and doctrines traditions that deny this(most likely out of ignorance), are founded on false ideas.

And before you claim that "conviction" in that meaning must mean Judeo-Christian ideas of "Conviction that leads to repentance or works", this is merely a word. As religious as Israel was, words on their own don't automatically have religious context in most cases, much less an idea as specific as that. Far less when it has only one meaning. Ancient Isreal had plenty of meanings outaide of a religious context for words, and there's no reason to jump to conclusions and believe this word has such a meaning on its own when that's the case.

I hope this edifies you all. God bless.

 

[FaithWillDo]

People go on debate and go through loops to prove or disprove faith alone for salvation, baptism being needed, or less commonly if turning from sin "in sincere repentance as possible" is needed.

Let me (hopefully) shut this down with one verse:

Genesis 15:6
"Then he believed in the LORD, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

The Hebrew for "believed" is וְהֶאֱמִ֖ן(wəhe’ĕmin). This word only appears in this verse, and it has only one meaning in any context: Full faith and resolute conviction of something being true.

There's no room in this word for "If they truly believe they'll-" or "Faith and this are needed:-". If we're to have Scripture not contradict, we must accept this, and accept that in reality, these systems and doctrines traditions that deny this(most likely out of ignorance), are founded on false ideas.

And before you claim that "conviction" in that meaning must mean Judeo-Christian ideas of "Conviction that leads to repentance or works", this is merely a word. As religious as Israel was, words on their own don't automatically have religious context in most cases, much less an idea as specific as that. Far less when it has only one meaning. Ancient Isreal had plenty of meanings outaide of a religious context for words, and there's no reason to jump to conclusions and believe this word has such a meaning on its own when that's the case.

I hope this edifies you all. God bless.

Dear Jabre,
Yes, faith alone in Christ and His works is the straight way that leads to salvation. Even adding just one of our own works will make the pathway "crooked".

So the real question is: how does a person have faith in Christ when mankind's carnal mind has a natural hatred for Christ and has no ability to understand Him?

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Where did your faith come from?

Joe

 

[Jabre]

Dear Jabre,
Yes, faith alone in Christ and His works is the straight way that leads to salvation. Even adding just one of our own works will make the pathway "crooked".

So the real question is: how does a person have faith in Christ when mankind's carnal mind has a natural hatred for Christ and has no ability to understand Him?

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Where did your faith come from?

Joe

Amen. It's through His Grace alone. We can only come to God when He draws us. Praise be to the Father from sending the Holy Spirit to work in us!

 

[FaithWillDo]

Amen. It's through His Grace alone. We can only come to God when He draws us. Praise be to the Father from sending the Holy Spirit to work in us!

Dear Jabre,
Do you understand the mystery of how Christ draws a person to begin following Him?

Christ draws a person to Him by coming to them (uninvited and without their permission) and giving them the Early Rain of the Spirit. The Early Rain is a small measure of the Spirit which gives a person a measure of faith and certain spiritual gifts.

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he (Christ) shall come unto us as the Rain, as the Latter and Early Rain unto the earth.

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small Rain (Early Rain), and to the great Rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.

Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small Rain (Early Rain) upon the tender herb, and as the showers (Latter Rain) upon the grass:

The Early Rain of the Spirit is not the baptism of the Spirit. The baptism is the Latter Rain.

When Paul first called Jesus "Lord" on the Damascus Road, it happened because Christ gave Paul the Early Rain of the Spirit. Without that gift, Paul would have continue to persecute Christians. But all that changed in a moment of time for Paul after he received the small measure of the Spirit.

This verse applies to how Paul suddenly had faith in Christ:

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

When Christ is ready to draw a person to Him, He alone will make the decision to come to them and then give them the Early Rain of the Spirit. But since the Spirit is given in measure, it will leave the new believer (babe) spiritually blind, carnally minded and unconverted. In this weak spiritual condition, they must wait on the Lord to return and give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This is what Paul received after having been blind and unable to eat for three days in Damascus. But since Paul was "chosen" (one of the Elect), Christ came to Paul a second time and poured out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This is when Paul's spiritual blindness was healed and when he was converted. Judgment (Day of the Lord) would have then followed which would have destroyed all the spiritual things within Paul that were making him carnally minded and sinful. However, this portion of the conversion process was not shown in Paul's testimony in Acts 9.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those (chosen babes) who are waiting for him.

Joe

 

[Soyeong]

People go on debate and go through loops to prove or disprove faith alone for salvation, baptism being needed, or less commonly if turning from sin "in sincere repentance as possible" is needed.

Let me (hopefully) shut this down with one verse:

Genesis 15:6
"Then he believed in the LORD, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

The Hebrew for "believed" is וְהֶאֱמִ֖ן(wəhe’ĕmin). This word only appears in this verse, and it has only one meaning in any context: Full faith and resolute conviction of something being true.

There's no room in this word for "If they truly believe they'll-" or "Faith and this are needed:-". If we're to have Scripture not contradict, we must accept this, and accept that in reality, these systems and doctrines traditions that deny this(most likely out of ignorance), are founded on false ideas.

And before you claim that "conviction" in that meaning must mean Judeo-Christian ideas of "Conviction that leads to repentance or works", this is merely a word. As religious as Israel was, words on their own don't automatically have religious context in most cases, much less an idea as specific as that. Far less when it has only one meaning. Ancient Isreal had plenty of meanings outaide of a religious context for words, and there's no reason to jump to conclusions and believe this word has such a meaning on its own when that's the case.

I hope this edifies you all. God bless.

There are no examples in the Bible of people sitting around with faith or a firm conviction that is completely independent of the way that they choose to act, but every example of faith is an example of someone who is an obeyer of God. While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was declared righteous (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed His command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was declared righteous was also expressed by being an obeyer of God, but he did not earn his righteousness as the result of his obedience (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was declared righteous by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was declared righteous by his works insofar as that is the way he expressed his faith, but not insofar as he was earning a wage. In other words, everyone who has faith will be declared righteous and everyone who has faith is a doer of God’s law, which is how Paul can deny that we can earn our righteousness as a wage while also affirming in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the law will be declared righteous.

The way to believe in God is by directing our lives towards being in His likeness through being a doer His character traits. For example, by being a doer of good works in obedience to God’s law we are testifying about God’s goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying about God’s goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words we are believing in Him. Likewise, the way to believe or have a firm conviction that God is a doer of justice is by being in His likeness through being a doer of justice in obedience to His law, the way to believe that God is holy is by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth. This is exactly the same as the way to believe in in Son, who is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact likeness of His character, which he expressed through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God’s law. This is also why there are many verses that connect our belief in God with our obedience to Him, such a in Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God’s commandments. God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His instructions and it would be contradictory for someone to trust in God, but not His instructions.

 

[Jabre]

There are no examples in the Bible of people sitting around with faith or a firm conviction that is completely independent of the way that they choose to act, but every example of faith is an example of someone who is an obeyer of God. While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was declared righteous (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed His command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was declared righteous was also expressed by being an obeyer of God, but he did not earn his righteousness as the result of his obedience (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was declared righteous by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was declared righteous by his works insofar as that is the way he expressed his faith, but not insofar as he was earning a wage. In other words, everyone who has faith will be declared righteous and everyone who has faith is a doer of God’s law, which is how Paul can deny that we can earn our righteousness as a wage while also affirming in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the law will be declared righteous.

The way to believe in God is by directing our lives towards being in His likeness through being a doer His character traits. For example, by being a doer of good works in obedience to God’s law we are testifying about God’s goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying about God’s goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words we are believing in Him. Likewise, the way to believe or have a firm conviction that God is a doer of justice is by being in His likeness through being a doer of justice in obedience to His law, the way to believe that God is holy is by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth. This is exactly the same as the way to believe in in Son, who is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact likeness of His character, which he expressed through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God’s law. This is also why there are many verses that connect our belief in God with our obedience to Him, such a in Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God’s commandments. God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His instructions and it would be contradictory for someone to trust in God, but not His instructions.

And what of knowing you're saved because "your fruit are good enough"?
Think about it. Is there a point where we know for sure we're "actually repentant/moving in the right direction" enough? Is not that debate a large part of why we have so many denominations? How do we know our works are good enough to "prove" it, to "show" it?
Is it not kind of arbitrary and up to personal perception at best and unknowable at worst? Surely you've met others you knew well who disagreed at least a little on this?

 

[KUWN]

People go on debate and go through loops to prove or disprove faith alone for salvation, baptism being needed, or less commonly if turning from sin "in sincere repentance as possible" is needed.

Let me (hopefully) shut this down with one verse:

Genesis 15:6
"Then he believed in the LORD, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

The Hebrew for "believed" is וְהֶאֱמִ֖ן(wəhe’ĕmin). This word only appears in this verse, and it has only one meaning in any context: Full faith and resolute conviction of something being true.

There's no room in this word for "If they truly believe they'll-" or "Faith and this are needed:-". If we're to have Scripture not contradict, we must accept this, and accept that in reality, these systems and doctrines traditions that deny this(most likely out of ignorance), are founded on false ideas.

And before you claim that "conviction" in that meaning must mean Judeo-Christian ideas of "Conviction that leads to repentance or works", this is merely a word. As religious as Israel was, words on their own don't automatically have religious context in most cases, much less an idea as specific as that. Far less when it has only one meaning. Ancient Isreal had plenty of meanings outaide of a religious context for words, and there's no reason to jump to conclusions and believe this word has such a meaning on its own when that's the case.

I hope this edifies you all. God bless.

I couldn't follow your argument/discussion. can you restate what the problem is and then a solution to that?

 

[Rockerduck]

No Jesus, no salvation.

 

[Soyeong]

And what of knowing you're saved because "your fruit are good enough"?
Think about it. Is there a point where we know for sure we're "actually repentant/moving in the right direction" enough? Is not that debate a large part of why we have so many denominations? How do we know our works are good enough to "prove" it, to "show" it?
Is it not kind of arbitrary and up to personal perception at best and unknowable at worst? Surely you've met others you knew well who disagreed at least a little on this?

In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works has absolutely nothing to do with trying to be good enough to prove that we are saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of His gift of salvation.

 

[dremnant]

Satan has a twisted definition of "faith alone" and many are getting deceived. He is teaching a doctrine of "if you attempt to do any good works or attempt to change your sinful behavior, you are basically trying to add to the works of Jesus Christ and robbing God of His glory".

Of course, real believers know the Holy Spirit is the one persuading them to repent from their sinful behavior and to do the works for the glory of God.

But the cult of Satan has many deceived, thinking they are saved when they are not.

 

[bro.tan]

People go on debate and go through loops to prove or disprove faith alone for salvation, baptism being needed, or less commonly if turning from sin "in sincere repentance as possible" is needed.

Let me (hopefully) shut this down with one verse:

Genesis 15:6
"Then he believed in the LORD, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Let's see what it says in James 2: (v.17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. The bible has been telling you all alone that you must have fruits to prove your faith. (v.18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. True faith goes hand in hand with good works. (v.20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? You can have all the faith you want, but if you have no works to go along with that faith, that faith is in vain, that faith is dead. (v.21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Abraham, the father of the faithful showed the Lord his faith by his works. (v.22) Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (v.23) And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND IT WAS IMPUTED UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS: and he was called the friend of God. (v.24) Ye see then how that by works a man is Justified, and not by faith only. (v.26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. Just as the body is dead when you take away the spirit (breath) so faith is dead if you have no works.

The Hebrew for "believed" is וְהֶאֱמִ֖ן(wəhe’ĕmin). This word only appears in this verse, and it has only one meaning in any context: Full faith and resolute conviction of something being true.

There's no room in this word for "If they truly believe they'll-" or "Faith and this are needed:-". If we're to have Scripture not contradict, we must accept this, and accept that in reality, these systems and doctrines traditions that deny this(most likely out of ignorance), are founded on false ideas.

And before you claim that "conviction" in that meaning must mean Judeo-Christian ideas of "Conviction that leads to repentance or works", this is merely a word. As religious as Israel was, words on their own don't automatically have religious context in most cases, much less an idea as specific as that. Far less when it has only one meaning. Ancient Isreal had plenty of meanings outaide of a religious context for words, and there's no reason to jump to conclusions and believe this word has such a meaning on its own when that's the case.

I hope this edifies you all. God bless.

 

[Jabre]

In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works has absolutely nothing to do with trying to be good enough to prove that we are saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of His gift of salvation.

Isn't that the same problem as before? This isn't about proving salvation in and of itself. It's the implication like I said. How do we know we're actually being trained by God and not just self deceived? I would like an answer if you can give.

 

[Jabre]

No Jesus, no salvation.

I never said that. I'm just clearing up the idea that "faith and then prove salvation". I'm sorry if I didn't clarify. Jesus is needed of course.

 

[Jabre]

Satan has a twisted definition of "faith alone" and many are getting deceived. He is teaching a doctrine of "if you attempt to do any good works or attempt to change your sinful behavior, you are basically trying to add to the works of Jesus Christ and robbing God of His glory".

Of course, real believers know the Holy Spirit is the one persuading them to repent from their sinful behavior and to do the works for the glory of God.

But the cult of Satan has many deceived, thinking they are saved when they are not.

Respectfully, this is kind of a strawman. It is pretty common so I don't blame you. No one says don't do good works or change your sinful behavior(if that's the idea you're getting at). God will make sure there's ample reason to get to that if you don't, take it from someone who suffered greatly for it.
Regardless can you clarify what you mean?

 

[Jabre]

Let's see what it says in James 2: (v.17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. The bible has been telling you all alone that you must have fruits to prove your faith. (v.18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. True faith goes hand in hand with good works. (v.20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? You can have all the faith you want, but if you have no works to go along with that faith, that faith is in vain, that faith is dead. (v.21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Abraham, the father of the faithful showed the Lord his faith by his works. (v.22) Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (v.23) And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND IT WAS IMPUTED UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS: and he was called the friend of God. (v.24) Ye see then how that by works a man is Justified, and not by faith only. (v.26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. Just as the body is dead when you take away the spirit (breath) so faith is dead if you have no works.

No one says don't work towards spiritual maturity and all those fruit. "Clear meaning" or not, is it logical and self consistent is what I'm asking. If you just say this, we can't know if we're saved and be sure of it, as per 1 John 5:13. It just becomes circular at that point if you claim we "can and we'll just know" or something along those lines.

 

[Wrangler]

Genesis 15:6
"Then he believed in the LORD, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

The Hebrew for "believed" is וְהֶאֱמִ֖ן(wəhe’ĕmin). This word only appears in this verse, and it has only one meaning in any context: Full faith and resolute conviction of something being true.

There's no room in this word for "If they truly believe they'll-" or "Faith and this are needed:-".

The fallacy is to imply faith and belief are synonyms. I've long held that the gates of heaven will not be breached by lip service. Real faith has action. So, F = B + A. From Definition of FAITH
faith
1 of 2
noun
ˈfāth
plural faiths ˈfāths sometimes ˈfāt͟hz
Synonyms of faith
1a: allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY

Anyone can say they believe. You quoted GE 15:6 is where YHWH counted Abraham as righteous and this is not coincidently after GE 12:4 "So Abram went just as Yahweh had told him." Abram's belief was tested and the evidence is that it is real faith, not lip service, for it resulted in action of a specific kind, action consistent with the will of YHWH.

This is the line differentiating spirituality from religion, tested belief, accountability of faith. Many tell me the believe in God. Few act with faith.

YHWH did not spare his own son the burden of tested belief, which is real faith. Only after the evidence of action of the work on the cross was Jesus given all authority. Like with Abram's act on his faith, the timing of bestowing of authority AFTER action is not a coincidence. Therefore, a sentence invoking the word "faith" does not require an explicit statement of action since that is part of the definition.

 

[dremnant]

Respectfully, this is kind of a strawman. It is pretty common so I don't blame you. No one says don't do good works or change your sinful behavior(if that's the idea you're getting at). God will make sure there's ample reason to get to that if you don't, take it from someone who suffered greatly for it.
Regardless can you clarify what you mean?

I guess you are not aware. There is this growing population of false teachers who use religion to make money. They teach whatever makes people feel happy and justified of their sinful lives.

 

[Soyeong]

Isn't that the same problem as before? This isn't about proving salvation in and of itself. It's the implication like I said. How do we know we're actually being trained by God and not just self deceived? I would like an answer if you can give.

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it, and if someone's life is directed towards being a doer of it, then they can know they are being saved from not being a doer of it.

 

[KUWN]

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it, and if someone's life is directed towards being a doer of it, then they can know they are being saved from not being a doer of it.

What?

 

[Soyeong]

What?

Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while our lives continued to be directed at being doers of sin, so there must be an aspect of our gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present by repenting and directing our lives towards being a doer of God's law. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of those works is the way that He is giving us his gift of salvation. So if our lives are directed at being a doer of God's law, then that is how we know that we are being saved.