Why does everyone seem to need to come up with their own belief and doctrinal formula?

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ScottA

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That's not biblical.

It is hard to image how this most common of positions even comes about. Do people really hear or read a little gospel, then assume they are to fill in the blanks according to their own understanding and conjecture?

Obviously, MANY do.

And it just gets worse from there. It's like telling a lie and then having to tell another and another and another just to keep from getting caught. WELL--YOU'VE BEEN CAUGHT! You are not getting away with anything! Everyone presence their own evidence for or against themselves.

I wonder if it is even possible for many to consider not giving their own opinion when speaking or writing about biblical matters.

TRY IT--PLEASE--TRY IT!
 

TrevorHL

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Greetings ScottA,
Do people really hear or read a little gospel, then assume they are to fill in the blanks according to their own understanding and conjecture?
You have stated an interesting aspect and it would be interesting to see if you eventually give a clear, simple summary of the Gospel. I find the following an informative starting point as it speaks of the Gospel as having two major components, summarised as the things of the Kingdom of God and the things concerning the Name of Jesus Christ.
Acts 8:5-6,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Now I do not consider it a matter of filling in the blanks, but rather considering for a start the speeches of Peter in Acts chapters 2 and 3 which are an expansion of the details of the Gospel, that is, some of the details of the Kingdom and the Name are clearly expounded. Our assessment of the Gospel must include all of these details for a start.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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ScottA

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Greetings ScottA,

You have stated an interesting aspect and it would be interesting to see if you eventually give a clear, simple summary of the Gospel. I find the following an informative starting point as it speaks of the Gospel as having two major components, summarised as the things of the Kingdom of God and the things concerning the Name of Jesus Christ.
Acts 8:5-6,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Now I do not consider it a matter of filling in the blanks, but rather considering for a start the speeches of Peter in Acts chapters 2 and 3 which are an expansion of the details of the Gospel, that is, some of the details of the Kingdom and the Name are clearly expounded. Our assessment of the Gospel must include all of these details for a start.

Kind regards
Trevor

I suppose the gospel is at the heart of this topic, but I was actually hoping to focus on the great error and people's tenancy to pit one assumed gospel against another based on their own opinion and understanding--rather than simply believing it as stated, and being silent except to repeat it.

Granted, there is no harm in having a discussion of opinion or what one believes may or may not be true. But to make claims, that are easily challenged by some other partial group of passages, and come out swinging--is just crazy, and of no good service to God. It's as if we all had our own gods.

It would be better to assume we do not know everything.

But I wouldn't be so inclined to make issue of it, except these same tactics caused the killing of the prophets and the crucifixion of Christ, and here we are still clouding the pure word from God with such a great barrage of conjecture that by measure, is perhaps the worse ever seen coming from the people of God. Meanwhile, we have not heard the last from God...for He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
 
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TrevorHL

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Greetings again ScottA,
I suppose the gospel is at the heart of this topic, but I was actually hoping to focus on the great error and people's tenancy to pit one assumed gospel against another based on their own opinion and understanding--rather than simply believing it as stated, and being silent except to repeat it.
Yes, but it would be nice to have a simple, clear statement of the Gospel as taught by Jesus and the Apostles, as Paul states that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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St. SteVen

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I wonder if it is even possible for many to consider not giving their own opinion when speaking or writing about biblical matters.
Is there another option?


[
 
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MatthewG

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Hello @ScottA,

Nothing wrong with playing rubix cube, the thing is there is always the who? Why? When? Where? And how? A method of complexity that comes with observing the Gospels themselves; plus the Old Testament as well. A lot to consider; or following people and what they say; which is easier? The work, or the work already done for you which may or not be inline with the spirit?
 
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ShineTheLight

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That's not biblical.

It is hard to image how this most common of positions even comes about. Do people really hear or read a little gospel, then assume they are to fill in the blanks according to their own understanding and conjecture?

Obviously, MANY do.

And it just gets worse from there. It's like telling a lie and then having to tell another and another and another just to keep from getting caught. WELL--YOU'VE BEEN CAUGHT! You are not getting away with anything! Everyone presence their own evidence for or against themselves.

I wonder if it is even possible for many to consider not giving their own opinion when speaking or writing about biblical matters.

TRY IT--PLEASE--TRY IT!

Many fall under these.

Matthew 24:4-5
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Luke 21:8
And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

Mark 13:5-6
5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
 

ScottA

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Is there another option?


[

By the immediate needs arising during Paul's time (engineered by God no doubt), he gave a word that God has seen fit to include in His own eternal word, saying "women should keep silent in church." Which if from Paul alone would have died with the traditions of his day. But if from God, has greater significance in need of spiritual discernment. In other words, referring rather to the church as the Bride, being told to yield to the Spirit, that the words spoken among the church be from God and not from men.

But now I have spoken in such a way, that only the Spirit can discern correctly whether it is from me or from God. As it should be.
 
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NotTheRock

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That's not biblical.

It is hard to image how this most common of positions even comes about. Do people really hear or read a little gospel, then assume they are to fill in the blanks according to their own understanding and conjecture?

Obviously, MANY do.

And it just gets worse from there. It's like telling a lie and then having to tell another and another and another just to keep from getting caught. WELL--YOU'VE BEEN CAUGHT! You are not getting away with anything! Everyone presence their own evidence for or against themselves.

I wonder if it is even possible for many to consider not giving their own opinion when speaking or writing about biblical matters.

TRY IT--PLEASE--TRY IT!


Brother, many of us discuss doctrine because we seek a better understanding. Many in turn share doctrine because they believe that they are helping to advance the understanding of others. However, things generally go sideways because many have differing understandings. All mean well, but cannot agree on many things.

In polite company I keep it to: Love Jesus, obey his commandments, love one another. All Christians will agree with those doctrines. But anything beyond that invites disagreement and division.

Getting back to your OP, you and I disagree on God's plan for humanity. We both share scripture but cannot agree on their meaning. I believe that it is God's plan to save and fix ALL who ever existed. You have a different belief.

I believe that the fundamental difference between "universalists" and most other Christians is that we aren't concerned or burdened with the belief that some of our loved ones will be punished forever. Most other Christians often accuse us of being heretics and of leading others to forever punishment. We are banned from many platforms because we don't parrot the worldly versions of Christian theology.

Essentially, universalists can accept our different understanding and move on with the knowledge that all of us will, eventually, be in God's Kingdom. Mainstream Christians, on the other hand, cannot (apparently) reconcile that differing doctrine. My impression of you is that you believe that we should not share the theology that all will be in God's Kingdom and that only you and those who agree with you should post. I'm not knocking you. I'm simply stating my impression based on your OP.
 

MatthewG

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““You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭13‬-‭14‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Upon reading last night this popped out at me again. This verse could be taken many different ways. A very narrow and difficult road is typically one less traveled. Anyway; people must ultimately decide for themselves however they will decide to travel.
 
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ScottA

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Greetings again ScottA,

Yes, but it would be nice to have a simple, clear statement of the Gospel as taught by Jesus and the Apostles, as Paul states that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

Kind regards
Trevor

It is written, that "that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written" regarding Jesus the Word (John 21:25).

Which in summary, not to mention the many great details, could be defined as: The truth from God.
 

ScottA

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Brother, many of us discuss doctrine because we seek a better understanding. Many in turn share doctrine because they believe that they are helping to advance the understanding of others. However, things generally go sideways because many have differing understandings. All mean well, but cannot agree on many things.

In polite company I keep it to: Love Jesus, obey his commandments, love one another. All Christians will agree with those doctrines. But anything beyond that invites disagreement and division.

Getting back to your OP, you and I disagree on God's plan for humanity. We both share scripture but cannot agree on their meaning. I believe that it is God's plan to save and fix ALL who ever existed. You have a different belief.

I believe that the fundamental difference between "universalists" and most other Christians is that we aren't concerned or burdened with the belief that some of our loved ones will be punished forever. Most other Christians often accuse us of being heretics and of leading others to forever punishment. We are banned from many platforms because we don't parrot the worldly versions of Christian theology.

Essentially, universalists can accept our different understanding and move on with the knowledge that all of us will, eventually, be in God's Kingdom. Mainstream Christians, on the other hand, cannot (apparently) reconcile that differing doctrine. My impression of you is that you believe that we should not share the theology that all will be in God's Kingdom and that only you and those who agree with you should post. I'm not knocking you. I'm simply stating my impression based on your OP.

That is a fair assessment, and does get to the heart of what I had hoped to address. My hope was to plant the seed needed to grow out of our now age-old habit of speculating, and transition "believing" to "knowing." Which will not come without taking to heart the warnings and what is foretold of the lies and false teaching that were to occur, and have. Ultimately, that would mean an acknowledgement of authority regarding just how God has always declared His actual truth, and a willingness to be corrected. And we are running out of time.

All of which may sound haughty, but is exactly according to every word and declaration of truth from God--which historically men have failed to align with. As Jesus said, "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." Unfortunately.
 

NotTheRock

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That is a fair assessment, and does get to the heart of what I had hoped to address. My hope was to plant the seed needed to grow out of our now age-old habit of speculating, and transition "believing" to "knowing." Which will not come without taking to heart the warnings and what is foretold of the lies and false teaching that were to occur, and have. Ultimately, that would mean an acknowledgement of authority regarding just how God has always declared His actual truth, and a willingness to be corrected. And we are running out of time.

All of which may sound haughty, but is exactly according to every word and declaration of truth from God--which historically men have failed to align with. As Jesus said, "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." Unfortunately.

It can be frustrating when people don't accept our explanation of God's words. We think that, if we show them God's words, that they will agree with our understanding.

What we forget in our zeal is that not all people are on the same path. For reasons known only to God, you are deeply interested in studying God's words. Yet, there are MANY Godly people who only know the basics and don't share your passion for the Word. Why is that? I believe it may be because God has a different plan for different people. Perhaps God has reserved roles for us in his Kingdom and we Christians are serving him here on Earth in different roles in preparation for having different roles in his Kingdom. Or maybe we are all having different experiences here as part of God's plan that we will share with one another in the hereafter. Only God knows.

I have complete faith in God's plan and am not worried in the slightest about my fate or anyone else's and for that I am greatly blessed and rich! I believe that we are all at different stages on the path to being one with God but that, eventually, we will ALL be one with him as 1 Corinthians describes.

I believe your burden is that you don't share that belief and that, perhaps, if you fail to do something or if another speaks a heresy, that some will fall short and be subjected to forever punishment. That is essentially a central tenet of mainstream Christianity.

However, another once wrote that the ultimate fate of mankind was NEVER left to chance and that God devised a plan to reconcile ALL to him through Christ. The reason I am sharing this is to explain why I am not despondent when others aren't yet ready to accept the good news. I KNOW that, in God's time, they WILL! I plant seeds but I don't pound my head against the wall when people reject his Word that I share with them. Instead I do what Jesus advised and I shake the dust, save the pearls, and move on with the comfort of knowing that Jesus has devised devices to save them too. :)
 

TrevorHL

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Greetings again ScottA,
It is written, that "that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written" regarding Jesus the Word (John 21:25).
Which in summary, not to mention the many great details, could be defined as: The truth from God.
Yes, even a partial knowledge of ALL the truth from God will occupy a person's lifetime. But as quoted from Acts 8:5-6,12 above, it is evident that Philip was able to preach the Gospel to the Samaritans and that they believed this preaching and were baptised and as a result they became members of the brotherhood. The same occurred with the preaching of John, Peter and Paul.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

quietthinker

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That's not biblical.

It is hard to image how this most common of positions even comes about. Do people really hear or read a little gospel, then assume they are to fill in the blanks according to their own understanding and conjecture?

Obviously, MANY do.

And it just gets worse from there. It's like telling a lie and then having to tell another and another and another just to keep from getting caught. WELL--YOU'VE BEEN CAUGHT! You are not getting away with anything! Everyone presence their own evidence for or against themselves.

I wonder if it is even possible for many to consider not giving their own opinion when speaking or writing about biblical matters.

TRY IT--PLEASE--TRY IT!
Does pointing to the opinions of others as their weak point include your opinions as well?
 

Skovand

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I would say that everyone does. All doctrine, from the simplest version to the oldest known traditions, to newer ones, is based off of personal interpretation, even if you are not the one who came up with it. But even in the Bible, we see multiple traditions. The Sadducees and the Pharisees were two distinct sects of Judaism with two very different interpretations of the tanakh. Jesus never chose one over the other.

The Bible itself has multiple traditions built into it. They are called biblical seams created by the redaction and inclusion of different sects. Like 1&2 Genesis and 1 Samuel 16&17. There has never been a singular interpretation since before written language was used by the people that became Jews.

Also when it comes to interpretation there are two main things to consider. The first is that language must be translated. We are even translation the commentaries by biblical fathers from 250ad+. Sometimes we find out after 1700 years that a word is actually better translated another way because as time goes, we collect more and more manuscripts , such as papers found wrapped around a Egyptian mummy, or in pottery discovered in caves. Sometimes the way one sentence is understood reshapes how an entire chapter is understood, such as we realize this section was not Paul speaking doctrine but was more likely Paul quoting a teaching he disagreed with.

The other part of translation is not merely word for word, but thought for thought. One developing case of this is centered around a word like homosexual. Within modern context homosexuality is when any man sleeps with another men, even if it’s consensual by both and they are happily married and caring. It’s starting to seem that the word homosexual in the Bible does not refer to consensual sex but was a word used extensively for men , especially straight men, in positions of power who weaponized sex as a form of social dominance over men of less ranking and authority then them. Such as a first class man sexually abusing a 3rd class man as a way to humiliate him publicly and that often, male temple prostitutes we’re not just gay men who chose to be prostitutes, but we’re young men forced into sex slavery so the powerful could use them in violent ritualistic sex.

As time goes, if we can begin to develop all the evidence we need, it would completely reshape the modern concept of what homosexuality as a sin meant to ancient Jewish men.

So as we develop a better translation of the Bible, and we have scholars who help develop what those words actually meant, it reshapes Christianity. To us it looks like tradition is being pushed off, but to others it looks like false narratives are being dispelled in order to get back to a more true version of ancient Christianity.
 

St. SteVen

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By the immediate needs arising during Paul's time (engineered by God no doubt), he gave a word that God has seen fit to include in His own eternal word, saying "women should keep silent in church." Which if from Paul alone would have died with the traditions of his day. But if from God, has greater significance in need of spiritual discernment. In other words, referring rather to the church as the Bride, being told to yield to the Spirit, that the words spoken among the church be from God and not from men.

But now I have spoken in such a way, that only the Spirit can discern correctly whether it is from me or from God. As it should be.
I suppose it begs the question as to what is "biblical".

Humankind have had their hands all over it. The original autograph manuscripts are lost to time.
Meaning, we don't have the originals. What we do have is thousands of fragment manuscript copies, of copies, of copies...
Translators had to choose a category to use, between Majority Text, Critical Text, or Textus Receptus.
Textual variants and scribal errors have ruled out many.

The western/Latin church gave us the canon of scripture. With their doctrinal bias all over it.
And they even have their own personal canon. There have been others.

Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus - Textual Criticism 101 - Berean Patriot

[
 
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St. SteVen

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That is a fair assessment, and does get to the heart of what I had hoped to address. My hope was to plant the seed needed to grow out of our now age-old habit of speculating, and transition "believing" to "knowing." Which will not come without taking to heart the warnings and what is foretold of the lies and false teaching that were to occur, and have. Ultimately, that would mean an acknowledgement of authority regarding just how God has always declared His actual truth, and a willingness to be corrected. And we are running out of time.

All of which may sound haughty, but is exactly according to every word and declaration of truth from God--which historically men have failed to align with. As Jesus said, "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." Unfortunately.
Are you part of the problem, or part of the solution?

[
 

St. SteVen

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I would say that everyone does. All doctrine, from the simplest version to the oldest known traditions, to newer ones, is based off of personal interpretation, even if you are not the one who came up with it.
Exactly.
There is no such thing as a straight-forward reading of scripture.
It always raises questions. It is always open to interpretation.

I reject the idea that it can only mean one thing.
Personally, I get something different out of each reading.
I find myself in a different place with a different view.

God uses the scriptures like a tool.
Only Jeremiah received a message from God while passing
the Potter's house that day. (chapter 18)

[
 

ScottA

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It can be frustrating when people don't accept our explanation of God's words. We think that, if we show them God's words, that they will agree with our understanding.

What we forget in our zeal is that not all people are on the same path. For reasons known only to God, you are deeply interested in studying God's words. Yet, there are MANY Godly people who only know the basics and don't share your passion for the Word. Why is that? I believe it may be because God has a different plan for different people. Perhaps God has reserved roles for us in his Kingdom and we Christians are serving him here on Earth in different roles in preparation for having different roles in his Kingdom. Or maybe we are all having different experiences here as part of God's plan that we will share with one another in the hereafter. Only God knows.

I have complete faith in God's plan and am not worried in the slightest about my fate or anyone else's and for that I am greatly blessed and rich! I believe that we are all at different stages on the path to being one with God but that, eventually, we will ALL be one with him as 1 Corinthians describes.

I believe your burden is that you don't share that belief and that, perhaps, if you fail to do something or if another speaks a heresy, that some will fall short and be subjected to forever punishment. That is essentially a central tenet of mainstream Christianity.

However, another once wrote that the ultimate fate of mankind was NEVER left to chance and that God devised a plan to reconcile ALL to him through Christ. The reason I am sharing this is to explain why I am not despondent when others aren't yet ready to accept the good news. I KNOW that, in God's time, they WILL! I plant seeds but I don't pound my head against the wall when people reject his Word that I share with them. Instead I do what Jesus advised and I shake the dust, save the pearls, and move on with the comfort of knowing that Jesus has devised devices to save them too. :)

I have been beating around the bush.

I mean, "strong delusion" and "great apostacy" infecting the church with "destructive doctrines" by "false teacher" beginning during the early days of the church--if true (and it is)--means the general state of the church at this current time is no better, and maybe worse, than the state of Israel when they crucified Christ. As such, ALL doctrine is suspect.

Think about the numbers. During that former historic precedent--how many were preaching correct doctrine? Rhetorical--the answer is: "The voice of one (crying in the wilderness)."

As for giving a rip about where everyone is in their own walk--Jesus wept.