Why are some interpreters not being honest with the text involving Daniel 9:27?

[Truth7t7]

The beast is also said to have seven heads and ten horns. Are we supposed to take that literally, too? Do you think the beast has seven literal heads and ten literal horns? You would have to take that literally in order to be consistent.

Once Again, A Direct Question That Hasn't Been Answered Regarding (Daniel's Description) Below

Do you believe that Daniel's (Little Horn/The Beast) maintained a literal "Body" as seen below?

Please Interpret (His Body Destroyed) As Seen Below, Literal or Symbolic?

Daniel 9:11KJV
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

LOL. Not in any that refer to a prophecy that was to be fulfilled within a certain time period. The prophecy itself indicates that certain things would occur during a continuous 490 year time period and it lists six things that would be fulfilled by the end of that time period. There is no indication WHATSOEVER that there would be any gaps in the prophecy. That is a figment of your imagination.

yet they have not been fulfilled

In fact. Some of the things which were to occur in the prophecy, have not even occured yet.

There is no gap to see at all. You are making things up.

I am not making anything up. I am taking the prophecy literally. You are not arguing from fact. Now your just throwing strawman around.. stick to fact.. not this childish stuff

You are the one adding to the scripture,

I have not added anythign to scripture. I just interpreted it as it is given

not me. There is no gap indicated in the scripture, so I don't try to add one just because I'm desperate to make the text fit with my doctrine.

Yet it is indicated.. I showed you how.. Whether you agree or not is beside the point. You cant say I have not when I have.

You have proved nothing except that you like to act as if your opinions are facts.

Yawn. This is why I hate these conversations.. it becomes he said she said, and never get anywhere.

Again, that doesn't apply to prophecies that specify a certain amount of time during which they would be fulfilled. Of course, other prophecies will have gaps because there's nothing limiting them to a certain time period during which they must be fulfilled like the Daniel 9:24 prophecy does.

So now it is just daniel 9: 24.. shacking my head

Stop acting like a child and then maybe I won't have to talk to you like one.

Practice what you preach

I'm listening to every word you're saying and it just so happens that I disagree with almost everything you're saying. And you're disagreeing with what I'm saying. Does that mean I should claim you're not listening to what I am saying? No, right? Are you unable to handle it that someone disagrees with you? That's how children are.

Yet you claim i am acting like a child. And not listening to the word.

once again, practice what you preach.

 

[covenantee]

Matthew 21 said otherwise. The temple, sacrifice, city, woman, people, congregation, etc. points to Christ. Funny, that you said, "and spiritual events".

They were all both physical and spiritual, including the destruction of Jerusalem.

 

[Truth7t7]

The beast is also said to have seven heads and ten horns. Are we supposed to take that literally, too? Do you think the beast has seven literal heads and ten literal horns? You would have to take that literally in order to be consistent.

You distract from the facts of scripture below in diversion from the presented question "Why"?

The scripture below clearly interprets the symbolic seven heads and ten horns into literal mountains and Kings, you're well aware of this fact, as you distract and divert away from the question of Daniel's written words (His Body Destroyed)

Revelation 17:9-12KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

 

[covenantee]

lol,

But it is that rinse who will commit the abomination which causes desolation, the same Abomination Jesus said they ill see standing in the holy place.

so it CAN’T Be Jesus

Unless you think Jesus will put an unclean thing in the holy place..

It would help if you'd learn how to read.

"...he shall make it desolate..."

He grammatically refers back to the prince, and the prince back to Messiah the Prince.

Messiah was the Desolator. The Roman commander Titus testified to God's assistance in winning the war.

Christ was not antichrist, as you attempt to believe.

Rinse and repeat.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Do you think that all prophecy is meant to be taken literally?

YES!!

if we do not take them literally, we can make them say whatever we want.

We have to take them ;internally so that we can PROVE they have been fulfilled. And we can weed out false prophets.

1. Deuteronomy 18:22
   when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him

There is no other way to weed out a false prophet. Or a false interpretation of a prophet.

Have you ever read the book of Daniel or Revelation? We need to understand the context of prophecy instead of assuming we can read it no differently than we read a news article or something like that.

Prophecy is my favorite subject.. other than history.

I have studied daniel and revelation for years.. Funny how I am the one who mentioned context concerning daniel 9. And now your talking about context..

I wouldn't want you to ignore the literal interpretation of prophecy. I'd want you to be able to differentiate between what is literal and what is symbolic or metaphorical. I don't believe you are good at that.

There is no metaphoric or symbolic interpretation of prophecy..

God tells us things that WILL happen. So when we see them happen, we know they are from God.

So when someone come and says I need to take it symbolically or metaphorically. I immediately throw up red flags.. because they do not understand the purpose of prophecy.

And you are sharing YOUR interpretation. I'm glad we've established that.

So do I. I just interpret it differently than you do. In your mind, believing what a passage says means to assume it has to be taken 100% literally.

All prophecy should be taken 100% literally.. Otherwise any one can prophecy and anyone can interpret however they want, and no one can argue against them.

That is a horrible way of interpreting scripture since it's beyond obvious that not all scripture is completely literal. If it was, then what was Paul talking about in 1 Corinthians 2 when he said the word of God must be spiritually discerned? There'd be no spiritual discernment necessary if it was all literal.

I never said all scripture is literal. i said prophecy.. now your being dishonest and saying I made a claim i never made.

Where does the prophecy indicate that the fulfillment of making an end of sin and so on is dependent on the people of Israel as a whole repenting of their sins?

Daniel prayed for the sin of his people. Lev 26 said that if israel sins, God will destroy their cities, lay their high places to waste, and scatter them amount the gentiles.. And they would stay that way until they repented of the sin (made an end of it) and confessed it to God.

read daniel 9, the context is leviticus 26.. The law of moses.. Daniel points to that context many times in his prayer to God.

if you ignore lev 26 and ignore who david is praying about. You will never understand the prophecy.

 

[Truth7t7]

You continue to make yourself look bad by frequently making false claims towards others. He does not deny that Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the literal, visible second coming of Christ. And never has. Don't make claims like this towards someone without even knowing how they interpret a given passage. That is foolish.

WPM believes Matthew 24:30 represents a judgement on Israel in 70AD, it's not the future second coming of Jesus Christ

I have been posting with you and WPM for years, as if I'm ignorant of WPM's many post describing Matthew 24:30

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, I believe Jesus confirmed the new covenant in the middle of the 70th week. I've said that many times.

But that is not what Gabriel said

it said he will confirm A covenant with many for one week/

Not in the middle of a week. Not for longer than a week. But for one week.

this is the begining of the 70th week.. which is the point the prophecy is tryign to make,, here is the begining of the 70 week. He will confirm a covenant,

but in the middle of the week, he w2e break his own covenant, hence the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. ,

 

[Phoneman777]

Anyone being honest with the text is going to take this entire verse (Daniel 9:27) to be pertaining to the 70th week, then interpret it based on that. Therefore, it is impossible, thus unreasonable, to interpret this verse in such a manner where it involves no gap whatsoever.


To illustrate this, let's assume this part--and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease--is what Christ did on the cross in the middle of the 70th week.

If there are no gaps anywhere, that means this part---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate---is entirely fulfilled within 3.5 years of Christ having died on the cross. Totally preposterous that that part can fit like that. The way many interpreters try and get around this is by being dishonest with the text, that some of it, particularly that part, is meaning outside of the 70th week, not during it.

The only things the prophecy explicitly demands happen during the 70th Week are:

• Messiah shall be cut off (after the threescore plus two plus the seven "street/wall built" of verse 25)
• oblation/sacrifices cease (in the "midst of the week" aka the 70th week)
• covenant confirmed (for "one week" aka the 70th week, confirmed by Jesus, not Antichrist)

That's it.

The two clauses "shall destroy the city/sanctuary" and "shall make it desolate" are not time-stamped by Gabriel as are these three above events, therefore are absolutely not demanded by the prophecy to happen within the 70th Week - they are Subsequent Consequential Events which result later from these three 70th Week Principal Events which happen earlier during the 70th Week, the duration of which was 27 A.D. to 34 A.D.

Therefore, respectfully, your insistence that "shall make it desolate" must occur within the 70th Week in order to justify chopping it off from the prophecy and inserting a "gap" between it and the rest of the prophecy is shown to be an exercise in subjective reasoning, not objective hermeneutics.

Two Challenges for Jesuit Futurists:

Find any Numerically Specific - not Event Specific - time prophecy where a gap in duration is inserted.

Return from noon lunch hour at 2 and tell the furious boss "there's an hour GAP between 12:59 and 1:00".

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It would help if you'd learn how to read.

"...he shall make it desolate..."

He grammatically refers back to the prince, and the prince back to Messiah the Prince.

Messiah was the Desolator. The Roman commander Titus testified to God's assistance in winning the war.

Christ was not antichrist, as you attempt to believe.

Rinse and repeat.

You should read

He (the prince) shall make it desolate (the holy place) on the wing of abominations (an inclean thing, or idol) shall make desolate

You’re right, Christ was not antichrist. He did not commit the abomination of desolation. He confirmed an eternal covenant with his blood. Not a 7 year covenant, and he will not break his covenant in the middle of the week..

He is not the final ruler of the 4th beast of Daniel. Or the feet of iron and clay, which is the final gentile ruler who will be defeated by the rock himself..Christ will not defeat himself. He will defeat the antichrist.

If anyone needs to learn how to read, it is you My Friend.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The only things the prophecy explicitly demands happen during the 70th Week are:

• Messiah shall be cut off (after the threescore plus two plus the seven "street/wall built" of verse 25)
• oblation/sacrifices cease (in the "midst of the week" aka the 70th week)
• covenant confirmed (for "one week" aka the 70th week, confirmed by Jesus, not Antichrist)

That's it.

The two clauses "shall destroy the city/sanctuary" and "shall make it desolate" are not time-stamped by Gabriel as are these three above events, therefore are absolutely not demanded by the prophecy to happen within the 70th Week - they are Subsequent Consequential Events which result later from these three 70th Week Principal Events which happen earlier during the 70th Week, the duration of which was 27 A.D. to 34 A.D.

Therefore, respectfully, your insistence that "shall make it desolate" must occur within the 70th Week in order to justify chopping it off from the prophecy and inserting a "gap" between it and the rest of the prophecy is shown to be an exercise in subjective reasoning, not objective hermeneutics.

Two Challenges for Jesuit Futurists:

Find a single "Numerically Specific Time Prophecy" where a gap is inserted, but so far none have found any.

Return from noon lunch hour at 2 and tell their furious boss "there's an hour GAP between 12:59 and 1:00".

Jesus did not confirm a covenant with many for 1 week (7 years)

the covenant is at the begining of the 70th week.. The 70th week is the length of the covenant, and it wil be broken in the middle of the week by the one who confirme3d it

Jesus fulfilled the old covenant, and confirmed a new covenant for all eternity. Not a week.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ok you have Jesus on Calvary in 33AD confirming the new covenant in the 70th week

Where, How, and When, was Messiah "Cut Off" at the 69th week seen below?

It doesn't say "at" the 69th week, it says "after" the 69th week the Messiah would be cut off. Which places the timing of Him being cut off during the 70th week. Discerning Christians should immediately see the reference to the Messiah being cut off and make a connection to this verse:

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

So, the "how" of Messiah being cut off was Jesus being crucified. The "where" was Calvary. The "when" was in the middle of the 70th week.

Do you see the prince destroying the city and sanctuary as 70AD Roman Armies?

Daniel 9:26KJV
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

You need to read scripture more carefully. It does not say that the prince would destroy the city and the sanctuary, it says the people of the prince would destroy the city and the sanctuary. It was the Roman armies who destroyed the city and the sanctuary, but it was a result of the overall rejection of the Messiah by the Jewish people. So, there is a sense in which the Jewish people (the people of the prince) who rejected Christ were responsible for destroying the city and the sanctuary. But, there is also a sense in which all people belong to Him because He creates all people. He can use any of the people He has created to do His will even if that isn't their intention such as how He used the Roman armies to punish the Jewish people who rejected Him.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You’re right, Christ was not antichrist. He did not commit the abomination of desolation. He confirmed an eternal covenant with his blood. Not a 7 year covenant, and he will not break his covenant in the middle of the week..

No one is claiming that the new covenant that Jesus confirmed with His blood was a 7 year covenant. So, you're making a straw man argument here. What is being claimed is that the eternal new covenant was confirmed and established during the 70th week.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus did not confirm a covenant with many for 1 week (7 years)

the covenant is at the begining of the 70th week.. The 70th week is the length of the covenant, and it wil be broken in the middle of the week by the one who confirme3d it

Jesus fulfilled the old covenant, and confirmed a new covenant for all eternity. Not a week.

Again, no one is claiming that Jesus confirmed the new covenant for only 1 week (7 years). Do you seriously think that anyone is claiming that? Why are you wasting your time making these straw man arguments? What many of us believe is that Jesus confirmed the eternal new covenant during the 70th week. It doesn't take eternity to confirm the eternal new covenant.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's your opinion Jesus spoke of a literal temple of stone in Jerusalem

, John below interprets that the temple destroyed was the Lord's body, and his disciples remembered this after his resurrection

Scripture interprets itself, something you completely disregard to maintain your teaching and belief on a false foundation

John 2:19-22KJV
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

That is a flat out lie and you are a liar. If I didn't let scripture interpret itself, I wouldn't be an amillennialist. Why are you acting as if John 2:19-22 is part of the Olivet Discourse? It's not. So, it has a different context.

Mark 13:1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! 2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Which temple buildings was Jesus referring to here that He said would be destroyed? Do you think this is referring to His body? Did He refer to His body as "these great buildings"?

 

[covenantee]

He confirmed an eternal covenant with his blood.

True.

Not a 7 year covenant, and he will not break his covenant in the middle of the week.

He confirmed His Eternal Covenant in His Blood with Israel via His Ministry on earth for the first 3.5 years of the 70th week, and after His Death, Resurrection, and Ascension, He confirmed His Eternal Covenant in His Blood with Israel via His Disciples' ministry on earth for the remaining 3.5 years of the 70th week.

Thereafter, the Covenant was additionally extended to the Gentiles as the Disciples took the gospel to them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yet it is indicated.. I showed you how.. Whether you agree or not is beside the point. You cant say I have not when I have.

I never said you didn't try to show me what you believe. Are you paranoid? You obviously have shown me what you believe and I disagree with it. Deal with it and accept that instead of whining about it.

Yawn. This is why I hate these conversations.. it becomes he said she said, and never get anywhere.

We're repeating ourselves at this point. I don't mind ending the conversation. It is boring me, also, since nothing new is being said at this point.

So now it is just daniel 9: 24.. shacking my head

I emphasized Daniel 9:24 because it specifically lists things that were to be fulfilled during the 70 weeks. I was not acting as if the whole prophecy is contained within only that verse and you know it.

Practice what you preach

I do. But, thanks for the reminder.

Yet you claim i am acting like a child.

You do act like a child on here. You lie and you whine when someone disagrees with you. You are very childish.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But that is not what Gabriel said

it said he will confirm A covenant with many for one week/

Not in the middle of a week. Not for longer than a week. But for one week.

I'm saying Jesus was cut off in the middle of the week and that was part of what confirmed the new covenant along with the preaching of the gospel first to Israel in the second half of the 70th week. I've already explained this multiple times so I shouldn't have to spell all this out every time I talk about it.

this is the begining of the 70th week.. which is the point the prophecy is tryign to make,, here is the begining of the 70 week. He will confirm a covenant,

but in the middle of the week, he w2e break his own covenant, hence the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. ,

It is unbelievably sad when people like you mistake prophecy about Jesus Christ for a supposed Antichrist instead. Scripture does not teach anything about a future Antichrist making a seven year covenant and breaking it in the middle of it. Also, what "holy place" would he be standing in?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

WPM believes Matthew 24:30 represents a judgement on Israel in 70AD, it's not the future second coming of Jesus Christ

I have been posting with you and WPM for years, as if I'm ignorant of WPM's many post describing Matthew 24:30

No, he does not believe that. I know that for a fact. I know what he believes and he believes that Matthew 24:30 is about the future second coming of Christ. He has indicated as such MANY times. How you have missed that is beyond me, but you have. So, stop making false accusations about his beliefs.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You distract from the facts of scripture below in diversion from the presented question "Why"?

That is not what I was doing, so this is yet another lie from you. Your lies are really adding up at this point. I was making a point to make you think. Since the heads and horns of the beast are not literal, why should we think the reference to his body is literal? The beast is a symbolic entity and does not symbolize a human being.

The scripture below clearly interprets the symbolic seven heads and ten horns into literal mountains and Kings, you're well aware of this fact, as you distract and divert away from the question of Daniel's written words (His Body Destroyed)

Revelation 17:9-12KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

I never said otherwise. What that shows is that parts of the beast's body like its heads and horns are not literal, so why would we think a reference to the beast's body is literal? It's pretty clear that unless symbolic terms are spelled out to you as to what they represent, you can't recognize them. But, they are not always spelled out to us.