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Isaiah 14:12 is a reference to a man and a king...
If you read Ezekiel 28 a few lines before 14, you find that the prophet is addressing a man and a king of Tyre
The original language of Job, the word which we read as satan in English was the improper form... Satan in Job is a generic word for adversary...
The reason that the prophets might address kings as though they were addressing something originally from Heaven...
But anyways... we find none of this in depth information in the Bible, so it would be pointless to present it in this forum...
But to further my point it shows that there are angels who are not in God's good graces... angels of false accusation... and when we talk of demons or fallen angels, we are referring to angels that are not on God's good side.
There are many angels that are not on the side of light for whatever reason, the Bible isn't really clear on it.
Yes, there are many instances of adversaries tempting people and God in the Bible, but it was never originally indicated that each such instance points to the same one...
As to Jesus' temptation in Matthew, it would stand that He must be tempted as Adam was tempted, so that Jesus could succeed where Adam failed... The adversary in Matthew may or may not be the same adversary that was in the Garden, but I am of the mind that both instances, the events were deliberately set in motion by God.
What exactly is your point?you have been presented with overwhelming evidence that satan is a fallen cherub in the bible.
Little kids in bible school understand this,why cant you?
The angels were presenting themselves before God... This doesn't seem like a time for petitioning to God to do something about a man someone doesn't like... The adversary that came before God was of angelic origin.... but you are right, it never says anything about the angel being 'fallen... LOL... and since God seems more than willing to present Job as a target, it seems to me that the angel is just looking for its next assignment....
It looks like someone had problem with God blessing Job and they met "before God" to discuss it.
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They didn't.
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God warned against mixing up with pagans.
Nothing else.
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Can you point to text/s?
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Never a fallen angel Satan.
Jam 1:14-15 explains.
Nope, not pagan... but the Greek word that originated the English use of the word "satan" in this verse is still just a generic word for accuser... It is not a proper noun denoting the entity that Christianity believes as The Devil now... But I think this is a good demonstration that some heavenly powers fell...Luke10:19"And he said unto them , i beheld satan as lighting fall from heaven."
Do you think this is pagan also?
Or maybe it means something different when translated?
This satan guy he must come from the egyptians.L.o.L
Guys, Jerzy is just here to get you going. He makes no points and only questions everything while ignoring answers.
Hmm, isnt that a good definition of what Satan is supposed to do?
The angels were presenting themselves before God...
The adversary that came before God was of angelic origin....
...since God seems more than willing to present Job as a target, it seems to me that the angel is just looking for its next assignment.
But really though, if it was a man petitioning God to come against Job, would he have the ability to come at Job the way he did? He wouldn't be able to send fire from heaven, and armies, and desert winds, and bandits... let alone all at the same time.
... and to think that the adversary were mortal in origin pretty much delegates petitioning God to some sort of pagan ritual where you rely on God to curse someone because you want it to happen... I can't see God demeaning Himself like that.
As for prophets not addressing kings as though they were something beyond this world... Why would the prophets liken a king to a Cherub, or a star? Those are other worldly...
.. the idea that the Devil/Satan is the powerful face of evil has lead to it's own anti-religion against Christianity and has been counter productive...
By giving the idea such attention, Christianity has created much misunderstanding of the motives we should come to Christ in the first place.
... And yes, I could point to texts, but I already mentioned that they are not in the Bible...
Unless you want to call me pagan for studying texts that, by Jewish tradition...
...Jesus would have studied....
Jerzy, I feel I am beating a dead horse here, but, just on the off chance you didnt catch what I showed you, Ill sum it up.
In Job, it clearly states a conversation by two beings, one identified as God and the other one as Satan.
In Matthew, it clearly states a conversation by two beings, one identified as Jesus and the other one identified as Satan.
In Revelation, it shows one being being taken and placed were two other beings already are. The placee is identified as Satan and the ones already there are the Beast and the False Prophet, which I hope you recognize are real folks.
None of the above events could have occured if the one identified as Satan was not an individual personality of some type.
If you are simply trying to say the Bible itself is a falsehood, you should try another forum where this idea might be met with more acceptance.
You are right... Job says originally "Sons of God" but that has been interpreted in 2 ways... Some people understand it means angels, and some people understands that it means men... There is a pretty large debate about it even today... Still they are men's interpretation... There is no way for the multitudes to absolutely know for sure though without relying on the flawed understanding of people...
If you are absolutely convicted that you are right, then please pray that the Holy Spirit will open my eyes to the truth of the matter, because I believe the passage in Job is talking about angels.
I believe this partly because until God's covenant with Abraham, there is no record that men presented themselves before God in the way Job talks of, and the book of Job has been widely shown to predate Abraham...
I have seen the passage in the NT where Jesus cast demons out of a person and into swine...
... And I have studied Judaic literature on angels, that hold good arguments for the origin of demons...
All I know is that I am convinced there is not just one devil that the demons answer to, and I am convinced that there is no being capable of truly taking the spotlight in challenge to God.
So Jerzy, who is Satan?
Ok, so just to be clear, do you think that Satan is in any way an individual personality or just simply a thought process, or perhaps both?
This my last time responding to any of your posts,you seem to be a obstinate individual who is opposed to the word of God.Jude1:6 "And the angels which kept not their first estate,but left their inhabitation,he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness until judgement day". These are fallen angels(demons).Hi Josy.
Glad you asked.
The Hebrew word, if translated into English, means adversary. It can be anything or anybody (group of people) opposing, being in opposition to something (not necessarily evil).
Thus God (looking from our human perspective), an angel of God, man, a group of people or man's mind may mean Satan.
However, 19 out of 27 times the word appears in the OT is not translated but transliterated whenever it refers to people or an angel of God. It is then explained by the preachers that it is a fallen angel Satan.
