Who Satan really is?

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jerzy

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Sep 7, 2012
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Isaiah 14:12 is a reference to a man and a king...

If you read Ezekiel 28 a few lines before 14, you find that the prophet is addressing a man and a king of Tyre

No contest.

The original language of Job, the word which we read as satan in English was the improper form... Satan in Job is a generic word for adversary...

It looks like someone had problem with God blessing Job and they met "before God" to discuss it.

The reason that the prophets might address kings as though they were addressing something originally from Heaven...

They didn't.

But anyways... we find none of this in depth information in the Bible, so it would be pointless to present it in this forum...

God warned against mixing up with pagans.

Nothing else.

But to further my point it shows that there are angels who are not in God's good graces... angels of false accusation... and when we talk of demons or fallen angels, we are referring to angels that are not on God's good side.

There are many angels that are not on the side of light for whatever reason, the Bible isn't really clear on it.

Can you point to text/s?

Yes, there are many instances of adversaries tempting people and God in the Bible, but it was never originally indicated that each such instance points to the same one...

Never a fallen angel Satan.

As to Jesus' temptation in Matthew, it would stand that He must be tempted as Adam was tempted, so that Jesus could succeed where Adam failed... The adversary in Matthew may or may not be the same adversary that was in the Garden, but I am of the mind that both instances, the events were deliberately set in motion by God.

Jam 1:14-15 explains.
 

Pelaides

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Jul 30, 2012
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What exactly is your point?you have been presented with overwhelming evidence that satan is a fallen cherub in the bible.Little kids in bible school understand this,why cant you?
 

jerzy

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Sep 7, 2012
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What exactly is your point?you have been presented with overwhelming evidence that satan is a fallen cherub in the bible.


Hmmmm!!!!

But you failed to highlight it in your texts.

Perhaps you just sucked this "overwhelming evidence that satan is a fallen cherub in the bible" from your thumb.

Little kids in bible school understand this,why cant you?

It means that I am not a little kid in a bible school.
 

Eltanin

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Aug 22, 2012
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...
It looks like someone had problem with God blessing Job and they met "before God" to discuss it.
...
They didn't.
...
God warned against mixing up with pagans.
Nothing else.
...
Can you point to text/s?
...
Never a fallen angel Satan.
Jam 1:14-15 explains.
The angels were presenting themselves before God... This doesn't seem like a time for petitioning to God to do something about a man someone doesn't like... The adversary that came before God was of angelic origin.... but you are right, it never says anything about the angel being 'fallen... LOL... and since God seems more than willing to present Job as a target, it seems to me that the angel is just looking for its next assignment.

But really though, if it was a man petitioning God to come against Job, would he have the ability to come at Job the way he did? He wouldn't be able to send fire from heaven, and armies, and desert winds, and bandits... let alone all at the same time.

... and to think that the adversary were mortal in origin pretty much delegates petitioning God to some sort of pagan ritual where you rely on God to curse someone because you want it to happen... I can't see God demeaning Himself like that.

As for prophets not addressing kings as though they were something beyond this world... Why would the prophets liken a king to a Cherub, or a star? Those are other worldly...

...and God has warned about more than just mixing pagan religion with ours... But the idea that the Devil/Satan is the powerful face of evil has lead to it's own anti-religion against Christianity and has been counter productive... By giving the idea such attention, Christianity has created much misunderstanding of the motives we should come to Christ in the first place.

... And yes, I could point to texts, but I already mentioned that they are not in the Bible, and so it would defeat the purpose... Unless you want to call me pagan for studying texts that, by Jewish tradition, Jesus would have studied.... But I am not on a Jewish forum so I will refrain.
 

Pelaides

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Jul 30, 2012
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Luke10:19"And he said unto them , i beheld satan as lighting fall from heaven."

Do you think this is pagan also?

Or maybe it means something different when translated?

This satan guy he must come from the egyptians.L.o.L
 

Eltanin

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Aug 22, 2012
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Luke10:19"And he said unto them , i beheld satan as lighting fall from heaven."

Do you think this is pagan also?

Or maybe it means something different when translated?

This satan guy he must come from the egyptians.L.o.L
Nope, not pagan... but the Greek word that originated the English use of the word "satan" in this verse is still just a generic word for accuser... It is not a proper noun denoting the entity that Christianity believes as The Devil now... But I think this is a good demonstration that some heavenly powers fell...
 

JosyWales

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Oct 21, 2008
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Guys, Jerzy is just here to get you going. He makes no points and only questions everything while ignoring answers.

Hmm, isnt that a good definition of what Satan is supposed to do?
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Mar 8, 2011
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Guys, Jerzy is just here to get you going. He makes no points and only questions everything while ignoring answers.

Hmm, isnt that a good definition of what Satan is supposed to do?

In the old days we called guys like him trolls.

They ask a question , rebuke everybody who answers the question , then preach a sermon that answers their own question .

I feel very sorry for disabled people like jerzy

i think they need a miracle from God to help them or something.

We certainly cannot help them by our replies..
 

jerzy

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Sep 7, 2012
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The angels were presenting themselves before God...

Didn't you see written that people were presenting themselves before God?

Are people not angels to?

The adversary that came before God was of angelic origin....

...since God seems more than willing to present Job as a target, it seems to me that the angel is just looking for its next assignment.

Let's think it was so.

It couldn't be a serpent (some think it was the Satan) because it was cursed before and there is no mention of his re-instatement.

It could be an angel like the one of Isa 36:37 or an "evil" spirit like the one whom God send to Saul or to the 400 prophets.

But really though, if it was a man petitioning God to come against Job, would he have the ability to come at Job the way he did? He wouldn't be able to send fire from heaven, and armies, and desert winds, and bandits... let alone all at the same time.

Do you remember Moses in Egypt?

... and to think that the adversary were mortal in origin pretty much delegates petitioning God to some sort of pagan ritual where you rely on God to curse someone because you want it to happen... I can't see God demeaning Himself like that.

Do you remember David?

As for prophets not addressing kings as though they were something beyond this world... Why would the prophets liken a king to a Cherub, or a star? Those are other worldly...

Why would John liken Jesus to a star?

.. the idea that the Devil/Satan is the powerful face of evil has lead to it's own anti-religion against Christianity and has been counter productive...

Christianity forgot who God is and has no idea what His power is.

Christianity doesn't follow the Christ but attribute all of the Father's to their idol a fallen angel Satan:

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

By giving the idea such attention, Christianity has created much misunderstanding of the motives we should come to Christ in the first place.

Christian leaders created a monster and use it to offer deliverance.

God alone kills and saves.

... And yes, I could point to texts, but I already mentioned that they are not in the Bible...

Texts which are not in the Bible.

Hmmmm!!!!

Unless you want to call me pagan for studying texts that, by Jewish tradition...

I studied few myself & see nothing wrong of knowing the grass on the other side of the fence.

...Jesus would have studied....

Where exactly Jesus studied them?

Perhaps here?

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

Do you remember what he did at the age of 12?
 

JosyWales

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Oct 21, 2008
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Jerzy, I feel I am beating a dead horse here, but, just on the off chance you didnt catch what I showed you, Ill sum it up.

In Job, it clearly states a conversation by two beings, one identified as God and the other one as Satan.

In Matthew, it clearly states a conversation by two beings, one identified as Jesus and the other one identified as Satan.

In Revelation, it shows one being being taken and placed were two other beings already are. The placee is identified as Satan and the ones already there are the Beast and the False Prophet, which I hope you recognize are real folks.

None of the above events could have occured if the one identified as Satan was not an individual personality of some type.

If you are simply trying to say the Bible itself is a falsehood, you should try another forum where this idea might be met with more acceptance.
 

jerzy

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Sep 7, 2012
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Jerzy, I feel I am beating a dead horse here, but, just on the off chance you didnt catch what I showed you, Ill sum it up.

All you need is to show written that Satan is a fallen angel.

Posting your own story or repeating man made stories is not good.

In Job, it clearly states a conversation by two beings, one identified as God and the other one as Satan.
In Matthew, it clearly states a conversation by two beings, one identified as Jesus and the other one identified as Satan.

Sooo????

Who is Satan?


Did you miss who Satan is in MT?

Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


In Revelation, it shows one being being taken and placed were two other beings already are. The placee is identified as Satan and the ones already there are the Beast and the False Prophet, which I hope you recognize are real folks.

Before you get to this point of Revelation you have to know who the great red dragon in Re 12:3 is?

Alas, you don't know it or just pretending because your story would prove false.

None of the above events could have occured if the one identified as Satan was not an individual personality of some type.

Wasn't Peter a personality in Mt 16:22?

If you are simply trying to say the Bible itself is a falsehood, you should try another forum where this idea might be met with more acceptance.

The Bible is not a falsehood but your story is.

Once again:

Show written that Satan is a fallen angel or stop making up stories or following man stories.
 

Eltanin

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Aug 22, 2012
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You are right... Job says originally "Sons of God" but that has been interpreted in 2 ways... Some people understand it means angels, and some people understands that it means men... There is a pretty large debate about it even today... Still they are men's interpretation... There is no way for the multitudes to absolutely know for sure though without relying on the flawed understanding of people...

If you are absolutely convicted that you are right, then please pray that the Holy Spirit will open my eyes to the truth of the matter, because I believe the passage in Job is talking about angels.

I believe this partly because until God's covenant with Abraham, there is no record that men presented themselves before God in the way Job talks of, and the book of Job has been widely shown to predate Abraham...

I have seen the passage in the NT where Jesus cast demons out of a person and into swine...

... And I have studied Judaic literature on angels, that hold good arguments for the origin of demons...

All I know is that I am convinced there is not just one devil that the demons answer to, and I am convinced that there is no being capable of truly taking the spotlight in challenge to God.
 

jerzy

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Sep 7, 2012
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You are right... Job says originally "Sons of God" but that has been interpreted in 2 ways... Some people understand it means angels, and some people understands that it means men... There is a pretty large debate about it even today... Still they are men's interpretation... There is no way for the multitudes to absolutely know for sure though without relying on the flawed understanding of people...

There is. Scriptures doesn’t mention a fallen angel Satan.

If you are absolutely convicted that you are right, then please pray that the Holy Spirit will open my eyes to the truth of the matter, because I believe the passage in Job is talking about angels.

Your belief is worth nothing unless is prove by God’s word.

I believe this partly because until God's covenant with Abraham, there is no record that men presented themselves before God in the way Job talks of, and the book of Job has been widely shown to predate Abraham...

What Abraham has to do with Job?

Exo 23:17 Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord GOD.​


I have seen the passage in the NT where Jesus cast demons out of a person and into swine...

Where they came from? What they had to declare about Jesus? Why they asked to be cast into unclean animals?

... And I have studied Judaic literature on angels, that hold good arguments for the origin of demons...

Weren't the Jew sure that Jesus had devil?

All I know is that I am convinced there is not just one devil that the demons answer to, and I am convinced that there is no being capable of truly taking the spotlight in challenge to God.

Perhaps you should find out what God says on this matter before being “convinced” to the contrary.
 

JosyWales

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Oct 21, 2008
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So Jerzy, who is Satan?

Please do me a favor and try to answer plainly and not with another question. I may simply be misunderstanding something here.
 

jerzy

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Sep 7, 2012
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So Jerzy, who is Satan?

Hi Josy.

Glad you asked.

The Hebrew word, if translated into English, means adversary. It can be anything or anybody (group of people) opposing, being in opposition to something (not necessarily evil).

Thus God (looking from our human perspective), an angel of God, man, a group of people or man's mind may mean Satan.

However, 19 out of 27 times the word appears in the OT is not translated but transliterated whenever it refers to people or an angel of God. It is then explained by the preachers that it is a fallen angel Satan.
 

JosyWales

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Ok, so just to be clear, do you think that Satan is in any way an individual personality or just simply a thought process, or perhaps both?
 

jerzy

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Sep 7, 2012
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Ok, so just to be clear, do you think that Satan is in any way an individual personality or just simply a thought process, or perhaps both?

As I said, it can be a person/people trying to oppose you in something you want to do or in the way you think. It can be your own mind running through few alternatives and trying to justify what you know is incorrect.
 

Pelaides

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Jul 30, 2012
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Hi Josy.

Glad you asked.

The Hebrew word, if translated into English, means adversary. It can be anything or anybody (group of people) opposing, being in opposition to something (not necessarily evil).

Thus God (looking from our human perspective), an angel of God, man, a group of people or man's mind may mean Satan.

However, 19 out of 27 times the word appears in the OT is not translated but transliterated whenever it refers to people or an angel of God. It is then explained by the preachers that it is a fallen angel Satan.
This my last time responding to any of your posts,you seem to be a obstinate individual who is opposed to the word of God.Jude1:6 "And the angels which kept not their first estate,but left their inhabitation,he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness until judgement day". These are fallen angels(demons).

Jude1:9"Yet michael the archangel ,when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of moses,durst not bring against him a railing accusation.but said the lord rebuke thee".

In verse one you see beyond any shadow of doubt that their are fallen angels.
 

JosyWales

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Oct 21, 2008
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Well darn it Jerzy, I gotta say that I just cant buy (from a biblical standpoint, based on all the things I have shown you, which seem clear) that Satan is always a formless thought.

You might oughta rethink that. :)

Whether he is an Angel or something else, I'm not sure. I have pondered if he is actually some other type of individual that cannot be classed, however, I am convenced that he is somebody.