Who Is "the Restrainer" In 2 Thess. 2:6-7

[Phoneman777]

Anytime someone says it is "clear", I am sure what I am about to hear (or read) is their conclusion.

Likewise, while the text only says Jesus' karat comes after the sixty-two 'sevens'; it is your conclusion that it can only be during the one 'seven'.

That is not so, and it is not the only conclusion which can be drawn. It is however one you can allow in your narrow way of thinking which disavows even of your Preterist leanings.

I also find it interestingly manifest that you revert to your mantra rather than answer the difficult parts of Gabriel's message to Daniel which inserts a broad time period before the end of the seventy 'sevens'.

Again, the prophecy doesn't demand the destruction occurs before the end of the 70 Weeks, just merely that it would occur after the "threescore and two (and seven) weeks". Says the same thing about Messiah's death. This happened between 27 A.D. and 34 A.D, the 70th Week. And the destruction in 70 A.D., both of which came after the 69 Weeks.

"Cut off" refers to His death, not the cutting off of seven years and sending it down to the end of time. The Psalmist says "He was cut off ("Gazar") from the land of the living" as well, and both Daniel and David are referring to Jesus' death. "Karath" and "Gazar" both mean "to destroy".

If you want time to be "cut off", refer to the previous verse where "Khathak", which literally means "cut off or amputate", is used there to show that the 70 Weeks are cut off from something. Daniel was confused about the 2,300 Days of chapter 8, so as an answer to humble prayer, the angel shows up and after he announces that he is there to explain the "vision" - the 2,300 Days vision - the very first thing he immediately tells Daniel is that "70 Weeks are cut off". To what can he be referring but the previously mentioned 2,300 Days, from which the 70 Weeks are cut off? Both prophecies begin in 457 B.C. with the 70 Weeks "cut off" or "separated" for the Jews and Jerusalem and tells of the restoration of the people and city, the rejection of the Messiah, and the results of that rejection, which Jesus Himself said would come when "this generation shall not pass", a Bible generation being 40 years, not anywhere close to the time of His death.

 

[Phoneman777]

The New Covenant spoken of in the NT is the Covenant of Grace. This covenant has been active from the time of Pentecost to now. Not 7 years, rather 2000 years.


I don't deny that the abomination of desolation existed in biblical times, but it will also occur in the future.


All of them. The abomination of desolation is not just an event that came to pass 2000 years ago. God put it in future prophecy also. Are you also denying the titles of the chapters? In what part of history do you believe "end times" exists? Why would Jesus set up an abomination??

Dan 12:11-12 NIV, Matt 24:15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV - Antichrist, third temple and the abomination of desolation is future.
Dan 12:11-12 NIV, Rev 11:2-3 NIV, Rev 12:6 NIV, Rev 12:14 NIV, Rev 13:5 NIV - 1260, 1290, 1335 days is future.

The three "he's" reflects the characteristic of the same person, the antichrist...Dan 9:27 NIV He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."


Rape is sin Phone. God's love brings life, not death. The fact that you have a distorted view of grace tells me you are either not born again or you are still a babe in Christ. Which is it?


The only reason you're still abiding in Him is because He's allowing you by His unfailing Grace, no matter how much you wanna take credit.

Isa 64:6 NIV All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

ATP, let's not question the salvation of one another, OK? Not only is it in bad taste, but it's against forum rules...understand?

Yes, the abomination that makes desolate IS a "dual prophecy", the past fulfillment being the destruction of Jerusalem with a future application as well. What is it? It's got NOTHING to do with any rebuilt temple in Israel, unless you think God would refer to a building where they reinstate the sacrificial system which pointed to the very Messiah that they rejected as "the Temple of God", when such a system would be an official, collective Jewish MIDDLE FINGER in the face of God. Do you really think God would refer to such a temple as "the Temple of God"? Hardly, but Jesuit Futurism is a powerful talisman for many so-called "Protestants" today.

No, the abomination has to do with SUN WORSHIP, just as in the days of Ezekiel 8, just in the days of the Romans placing their SUN GOD standards in the holy ground that ran several furlongs out from the Temple walls, and just as it has infiltrated in God's temple today. SUN WORSHIP, the "abomination that makes desolate".

 

[Phoneman777]

This blanket statement misrepresents Scripture.

Where did Jesus make the New Covenant in the Old Testament? Provide chapter and verse or be called a charlatan.

Secondly, Jesus "CUT" the New Covenant, He did not prevail by military might a limited-time covenant which ran out before the Gospels were even written!

The God of the O.T. - Jesus - spoke His promise of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31 KJV.

Jesus made that New Covenant "prevail" in the strength of His Father and the hosts of heaven when He said "not My will but Thy will" and went to the Cross.

Question: When you confirm on the first day of the month an appointment that is on the last day of it, does the confirmation abolish the appointment? So, why are you stuck in a rut in your belief that Jesus confirming the New Covenant for 7 years demands the abolishing of it at the end of the period of confirmation? Confirmation of agreements does not abolish them, it strengthens them! And the New Covenant is as strong today as ever.

 

[Phoneman777]

That end is in reference to the time for Daniel's people,

The "end" can't refer to the "end" of Jerusalem and the Jews as a nation? When wars and desolation were poured out upon Jerusalem in the time that the abomination of Sun Worship - which God says is the most offensive abomination to Ezekiel - was brought right into the Jewish temple by virtue of their SUN GOD emblems on their Roman standards which they planted into holy ground?

No, the "end" must refer to a time in the future when God places rubber bands on His prophecy in order to make it stretch down to the end of time and make 70 Weeks to be 70 Weeks plus 2,000 years, right? How you can believe Jesuit Futurism, Jesuit Preterism, or any other Jesuit ideas when the Jesuits can't even get right the most fundamental doctrine of all - Salvation by grace through faith alone - is truly a mystery.

 

[Phoneman777]

I've shown you plenty of scripture. The Antichrist is called the "Covenant of Death". He's also the deceiver Phone.


Ironic how you also fail to get right even the most fundamental aspect of Christianity.

You believe you can't earn salvation, but you have to earn it to keep it? lol. opcorn:

ATP, no where in the Bible is the Antichrist called the Covenant of Death. That's absurd.

 

[ATP]

Yes, the abomination that makes desolate IS a "dual prophecy", the past fulfillment being the destruction of Jerusalem with a future application as well. What is it? It's got NOTHING to do with any rebuilt temple in Israel,

The third temple will be a building with walls Ezek chapters 40-48... the third temple has everything to do with Israel.

http://thewordonpolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Ezekiels-Temple-Logos.png

ATP, no where in the Bible is the Antichrist called the Covenant of Death. That's absurd.

The antichrist spirit is in the book of Isaiah making a "covenant with death". The rider on the pale horse is also named death.

The character of the Antichrist is "death" Phone. God the Father/Jesus Christ is life and the Antichrist/Satan/The Devil is death...

Rom 6:23 NIV For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Isa 28:15 NIV You boast, "We have entered into a covenant with death (Rev 6:8 NIV), with the realm of the dead we have made an agreement. When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by, it cannot touch us, for we have made a lie our refuge and falsehood our hiding place."

Isa 57:8-9 NIV Behind your doors and your doorposts you have put your pagan symbols. Forsaking me, you uncovered your bed, you climbed into it and opened it wide; you made a pact with those whose beds you love (Rev 6:8 NIV), and you looked with lust on their naked bodies. 9You went to Molek with olive oil and increased your perfumes. You sent your ambassadors far away; you descended to the very realm of the dead!

Rev 6:2 NIV I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

Rev 6:8 NIV I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

If you want time to be "cut off", refer to the previous verse where "Khathak", which literally means "cut off or amputate", is used there to show that the 70 Weeks are cut off from something.

Nonsense it doesn't mean that at all! You are a horrible scholar!

Dan 9:24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city..."

decreed: chathak It means: to divide, determine
(Niphal) to be determined, be decreed, be settled, be marked out

It doesn't mean cut off or amputate!

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Daniel was confused about the 2,300 Days of chapter 8, so as an answer to humble prayer, the angel shows up and after he announces that he is there to explain the "vision" - the 2,300 Days vision

That's not what Daniel said.

9:1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of Median descent, who was made king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans— 2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years. 3 So I gave my attention to the Lord God to seek Him by prayer and supplications, with fasting, sackcloth and ashes.

And that's not what Gabriel said:

9:20 Now while I was speaking and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God in behalf of the holy mountain of my God, 21 while I was still speaking in prayer, then the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision previously, came to me in my extreme weariness about the time of the evening offering. 22 He gave me instruction and talked with me and said, "O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you insight with understanding. 23 At the beginning of your supplications the command was issued, and I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed; so give heed to the message and gain understanding of the vision.

There is not one word in all Daniel's summation of Israel's transgression from the way the Lord set before her about him being "confused" about what God had said to him before.

Again, you malign the Bible, so I defend it.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

tells of the restoration of the people and city, the rejection of the Messiah, and the results of that rejection, which Jesus Himself said would come when "this generation shall not pass", a Bible generation being 40 years, not anywhere close to the time of His death.

Another misapplication of Scripture by someone who is a horrible scholar.

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus lays out five specific and unique events which happen, staring with the midpoint abomination leading up to the gathering of the Elect, which Paul, some twenty years later, told the Thessalonians they had not missed!

When those things come about, they will come like a flood - all at once in a rush.

Speaking about those end-time events immediately preceding His parousia, that generation shall not pass; i.e, it is within a generation.

So Jesus is not speaking about Daniel 9:24-27.
He is speaking to the Apostles about the last few months of the Church Age when He comes again.

Mt 24:34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Again, for an understanding of what "all these things" are, you must read the detailed portion of the Olivet Discourse in Mt 24:15-31. That is what Jesus was just talking about.

 

[ATP]

If only people would read Marvin Rosenthal's book, "Prewrath rapture of the church"...but nobody cares. The truth doesn't come first in this world. Not in this world.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

the abomination that makes desolate IS a "dual prophecy", the past fulfillment being the destruction of Jerusalem with a future application as well. What is it? It's got NOTHING to do with any rebuilt temple in Israel,

Jesus said otherwise.

Mt 24:15 "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place,"

(The Jews do not count Daniel as a Prophet, but God does.)

Now Holy Place is a specific place in the Bible.

Exo 26:33 Hang the curtain from the clasps and place the ark of the covenant law behind the curtain. The curtain will separate the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place.

The Holy Place is IN the Temple.

Jesus said the abomination of desolation will be standing in the Temple. It's not about sun worship. It's about the talking image of a man in Rev 13:14-15 spoken of by Paul in 2Th 2:1-8.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

If only people would read Marvin Rosenthal's book, "Prewrath rapture of the church"...but nobody cares. The truth doesn't come first in this world. Not in this world.

I have that book in my library and I've read it. It has inspired me to write as well.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Jesus made that New Covenant "prevail" in the strength of His Father and the hosts of heaven when He said "not My will but Thy will" and went to the Cross.

Sorry Charlie, but that is not what gabar means and the New Covenant was not made until Jesus was at the end of His First Advent.

So your Preterist timing is quite off the mark. You have no prevailing by might, to begin Jesus' Ministry, and the only covenant is the New Covenant and that is at the end of His Ministry - then where is the abomination in the Temple? And where are the desolations, which have been decreed, poured out on the desolator within seven years?

You have no match to the historical timeline: Preterism is a fraud.

You do not prevail by might when you give up your will to the Father.

That is prevailing by faith, which is not what gabar means.

The submission which is involved by allowing your will to be second is exactly opposite the type of prevailing by might which will be accomplished by the anti-Christ, the prince who will come.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

The "end" can't refer to the "end" of Jerusalem and the Jews as a nation?

Jerusalem and Daniel's people still are.

The "end" Gabriel is speaking about it the end of the seventy 'seven's.

War goes on onto the end of the seventy 'sevens'. We still have war. We still have Jerusalem. We still have Daniel's people (depending on which group you place Daniel, two of which I can think of are still here) so to the gap in the prophecy is still in effect, and we await the start of the one 'seven'.

 

[Phoneman777]

The third temple will be a building with walls Ezek chapters 40-48... the third temple has everything to do with Israel.

http://thewordonpolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Ezekiels-Temple-Logos.png


The antichrist spirit is in the book of Isaiah making a "covenant with death". The rider on the pale horse is also named death.

The character of the Antichrist is "death" Phone. God the Father/Jesus Christ is life and the Antichrist/Satan/The Devil is death...

Rom 6:23 NIV For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Isa 28:15 NIV You boast, "We have entered into a covenant with death (Rev 6:8 NIV), with the realm of the dead we have made an agreement. When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by, it cannot touch us, for we have made a lie our refuge and falsehood our hiding place."

Isa 57:8-9 NIV Behind your doors and your doorposts you have put your pagan symbols. Forsaking me, you uncovered your bed, you climbed into it and opened it wide; you made a pact with those whose beds you love (Rev 6:8 NIV), and you looked with lust on their naked bodies. 9You went to Molek with olive oil and increased your perfumes. You sent your ambassadors far away; you descended to the very realm of the dead!

Rev 6:2 NIV I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

Rev 6:8 NIV I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

You mean the "Temple of God" where the whole nation of Israel finally sticks their collective middle finger in the face of God as they begin once again sacrificing lambs which pointed to their Messiah they hate to this day and refer to as "the Great Imposter"??? Really?

God would NEVER refer to such a building as a "Temple of God" and neither does Paul.

There are only 7 temples in the Bible:

1. Mosaic Tabernacle
2. Temple Solomon built
3. Temple Zerrubabel built
4. Jesus' body
5. The Church
6. Saint's body
7. and lastly (drum roll please).....................................................The Temple In Heaven.

The Bible makes no mention of an "8th Temple of God" anywhere.
Amazing how that number 7 keeps showing up and signifying perfection/completeness, isn't it?

 

[Phoneman777]

Nonsense it doesn't mean that at all! You are a horrible scholar!

Dan 9:24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city..."

decreed: chathak It means: to divide, determine
(Niphal) to be determined, be decreed, be settled, be marked out

It doesn't mean cut off or amputate!

That is exactly what it means. Look it up for yourself. Better yet, read it for yourself and spare me the criticism, please:

חָתַךְ châthak, khaw-thak'; a primitive root; properly, to cut off, i.e. (figuratively) to decree:—determine.

 

[Phoneman777]

Another misapplication of Scripture by someone who is a horrible scholar.

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus lays out five specific and unique events which happen, staring with the midpoint abomination leading up to the gathering of the Elect, which Paul, some twenty years later, told the Thessalonians they had not missed!

When those things come about, they will come like a flood - all at once in a rush.

Speaking about those end-time events immediately preceding His parousia, that generation shall not pass; i.e, it is within a generation.

So Jesus is not speaking about Daniel 9:24-27.
He is speaking to the Apostles about the last few months of the Church Age when He comes again.

Mt 24:34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Again, for an understanding of what "all these things" are, you must read the detailed portion of the Olivet Discourse in Mt 24:15-31. That is what Jesus was just talking about.

You, like all Jesuit sympathizers, are in no position to appraise the scholarship of anyone.

If you would read in Ezekiel 8 where the pre-incarnate OT God, Jesus, refers to the greatest abomination of all as being the dragging of Sun God worship into the temple, then you would know that "the abomination that makes desolate" has to do with the same loathsome Sun Worship as in the days of old.

Allow the Bible to be it's own interpreter and you will achieve spiritual enlightenment instead of compounded Jesuit delusions, my friend.

 

[Phoneman777]

Jesus said otherwise.

Mt 24:15 "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place,"

(The Jews do not count Daniel as a Prophet, but God does.)

Now Holy Place is a specific place in the Bible.

Exo 26:33 Hang the curtain from the clasps and place the ark of the covenant law behind the curtain. The curtain will separate the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place.

The Holy Place is IN the Temple.

Jesus said the abomination of desolation will be standing in the Temple. It's not about sun worship. It's about the talking image of a man in Rev 13:14-15 spoken of by Paul in 2Th 2:1-8.

Jesus' warning of the "abomination that makes desolate" is a dual prophecy for these two reasons:

1. The warning was to "this generation (which) shall not pass" meaning the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem where Christians in 66 A.D. who saw Roman Sun Worship standards standing where they should not be, planted on the holy ground of Jehovah, packed their bags and fled while the Jews were deceived into believing God was with them and met with a horrific fate as payment for their rejection of the Messiah four years later.

2. The warning is given to those who would live in a time when there "shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

The term "holy place" is not limited to the first apartment of the Temple (ex.: the areas around the burning bush and Joshua's encounter with the Captain of the Lord.) but you insist that it does so that you can support the idea of a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, just as you insist that Gabriel's "end" must refer to the "end of the 70 Weeks" rather than "end of the Jewish nation" in order to have your gap. Really?

Insisting that a word or phrase which can be interpreted several ways must be interpreted your way in order to establish your position is the classic Jesuit approach. They went to the Bible to prove the Papacy was NOT the Antichrist rather than humbly and prayerfully searching it to see if the claims of Protestant Historicism were true, and the unavoidable disaster which resulted from that was your beloved Jesuit Futurism, as well as the equally disastrous Jesuit Preterism.

 

[Phoneman777]

Jesus said otherwise.

Mt 24:15 "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place,"

(The Jews do not count Daniel as a Prophet, but God does.)

Now Holy Place is a specific place in the Bible.

Exo 26:33 Hang the curtain from the clasps and place the ark of the covenant law behind the curtain. The curtain will separate the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place.

The Holy Place is IN the Temple.

Jesus said the abomination of desolation will be standing in the Temple. It's not about sun worship. It's about the talking image of a man in Rev 13:14-15 spoken of by Paul in 2Th 2:1-8.

The Bible says in Daniel's day, the abominations that brought about the desolation of Jerusalem had to do with the setting up of pagan worship (Sun Worship) not only in the Temple, but in the midst of the people. In our day, the "building fitly framed together, HOLY unto the Lord" is the church and the same false Sun Worship is being set up in our midst and will soon be forced by legislation.

What is literal and local in the OT is spiritual and world-wide in the NT.

 

[Phoneman777]

Sorry Charlie, but that is not what gabar means and the New Covenant was not made until Jesus was at the end of His First Advent.

So your Preterist timing is quite off the mark. You have no prevailing by might, to begin Jesus' Ministry, and the only covenant is the New Covenant and that is at the end of His Ministry - then where is the abomination in the Temple? And where are the desolations, which have been decreed, poured out on the desolator within seven years?

You have no match to the historical timeline: Preterism is a fraud.

You do not prevail by might when you give up your will to the Father.

That is prevailing by faith, which is not what gabar means.

The submission which is involved by allowing your will to be second is exactly opposite the type of prevailing by might which will be accomplished by the anti-Christ, the prince who will come.

Your Jesuit Futurism is what is off the mark, friend. I have Jesus promising the New Covenant by the word of Jeremiah, I have Jesus coming to confirm for 7 years what He promised centuries earlier, and I have Jesus causing that Covenant to "prevail" in the strength and might of His Father and it prevails yet to this day.

You claim my interpretation matches no time line, yet you adhere to Jesuit "gap" theory, which no other year specific prophecy in all of Scripture incorporates? No, friend, Historicism matches the time line flawlessly, unlike your Jesuit Futurist ideas, which are just as flawed as Jesuit Preterism.