Where does the Pope get his authority?

[Jude Thaddeus]

You have a problem with that? Does that need to be interpreted? Sounds similar enough to me. And the context doesn't change the core meaning of Jesus's words here. And the rest of scripture agrees with that core meaning.

The Pope has no authority apart from Christ and no authority as a man alone. He teaches that without God we can do nothing, if you bother to look.

KJV Acts 17:24-31

You are quoting from a Catholic book.

Tell me. Where in any of the above sermon by Paul is there any indication that his listeners were to place church leadership above God Himself?

That is your mythical premise, and proven false time and time again.

Where is Paul suggesting that he, Paul, is a vicar of Christ?

The first recorded use of the term "Vicar of Christ" is found in the epistles of Tertullian in the late 2nd and early 3rd centuries, referring to the Holy Spirit, that is, as Christ is not physically performing miracles in the Church, the Holy Spirit acts as his Vicar on His behalf, performing miracles and preventing the Church from error, as the Spirit did at the Council of Jerusalem. The term can be properly applied to the Pope, if you stop butchering the meaning of vicar.

What makes your question so unfair is that Paul was long dead when the term "Vicar of Christ" was first used. Vicar means ambassador or servant. It doesn't mean "equal to". Furthermore, the notion that Paul was acting on his own apart from the institutional Church, has always been rejected as unbiblical.

Vicarius Filii Dei is a phrase first used in the forged medieval Donation of Constantine to refer to Saint Peter, who is regarded as the first Pope by the Catholic Church12. The phrase means "Vicar or Representative of the Son of God"1. Seventh-day Adventists claim that it is a title possessed by the Pope as head of the Roman Catholic Church, but the Roman Catholic Church categorically denies this2. The phrase is spelled out in Roman letters as VICARIVS FILII DEI, which means "Instead of the Son of God"3. from wikipedia​

​

It does not mean "replaces the Son of God" a blatant lie; a hollow drum, you guys have been pounding since 1860.​

What is the expiry date of this verse?
Hebrews 13:17
Obey those who rule over you, (bishops) and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.

Early Church Fathers:
“I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments unto you.”
Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans, 4 (c. A.D. 110).

‘You have thus by such an admonition bound together the plantings of Peter and Paul at Rome and Corinth.”
Dionysius of Corinth, Epistle to Pope Soter, fragment in Eusebius’ Church History, II:25 (c. A.D. 178).

“Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church.”
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:1:1 (c. A.D. 180).

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

How to Avoid Converting to Catholicism, in 8 Easy Steps

As a Protestant convert to Catholicism whose journey culminated at the Easter Vigil earlier this year, I have some experience, oddly enough, in how to become a Catholic. For me, it was a particular, miraculous journey that I’ve been writing about for a few months now. For me, I

www.churchpop.com

summary:

• 1) Don’t Read Scott Hahn One of the first mistakes I made as a Protestant was to read Scott Hahn.
• 2) Don’t Read Church History
• 3) Don’t Read the Early Church Fathers
• 4) Don’t Meet Any Great Catholics
• 5) Don’t Start Living Like a Catholic
• 6) Don’t Give God an Inch
• 7) Don’t Pray
• 8) Don’t Let Your Faith Be Challenged

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

Ritajanice said:​

I meant I won’t be commenting on the commentary I posted, .

God has allowed the Pope to have authority in this world,

No, the Pope has political authority as a head of state, the smallest country in the world. The Pope has authority only on matters of faith and morals and he doesn't impose his teachings on anybody. He can only propose truths to those who are disposed to receive it. Does that rule you out?

....the Pope has no authority over God..

That's true. Where do get this garbage?

.he won’t have any authority in the Kingdom of Heaven...

Matthew 19:28-20:16
28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[ a] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
Are these thrones in heaven, on earth, or both?

Plus as the word says we must be “ Born Again “ to see the Kingdom Of God.

Jesus clearly said "you must be born of water and the Spirit". He said nothing about an emotional experience at an altar call, as valuable as that may be.

The Pope sadly is worshipped instead of God...kissing his hand...etc...

It's just expressions of love and respect, not worship. Only God is worshipped.

it’s embarrassing looking at him in all that ridiculous gown he wears, and whatever that hat is on his head?

Liturgical garb has a rich history. The Jewish High Priest wore garments far more elaborate than any pope, but you don't mock the Jews, that would be politically incorrect. Those goofy looking hats have been around since the 10th century, and undergone development over time. It's a mere rubric rich in symbolism, not a doctrine.

Waving his hand like the Queen, seriously, man has given him all the Glory plus the Virgin Mary

That's a load of crap that would be welcomed in North Korea.

He’s been indoctrinated like all who follow him...

Rather than take this thread off topic, I’m going to start another topic..asking what Catholic’s believe...if you like I can let you know when I’ve posted it.

It's always better to ask than to assume falsehoods. I like sincere questions that are not sugar coated insults.

My friend was a Catholic...she versed me in quite a lot of what she believed.

I hope your friend was an informed practicing Catholic, not a dead one.

How Can Catholicism Be True When Catholics Are So Dead?

Several people wrote to me recently to express their skepticism about Catholicism based on their experience with actual Catholics.

www.catholiceducation.org

Would you like me to let you know when I start the topic?

Yes. Thank you for the invitation.

 

[Marymog]

I am horrified that after all I have said, you should find cause to affirm that. I have constantly reiterated time and time again, that the scriptures are the final authority in faith and doctrine. The church being described as the foundation and pillar of truth does not contradict God's word as being the final authority. But for the word of God, the church would not exist.

HORRIFIED???? Wow.....!!! How dramatic!!

Scripture is the final authority in faith and doctrine????????????? I don't even know what that means.

Your SDA men read Scripture. They come up with *salvific doctrine by reading that Scripture.
The men of the Catholic Church read Scripture. They come up with *salvific doctrine by reading that Scripture.
The men of the Baptist church read Scripture. They come up with *salvific doctrine by reading that Scripture.

All 3 have different salvific doctrine by reading the same Scripture. Which of those 3 churches is the pillar and foundation of truth in their salvific doctrine?

*salvific doctrine: what you have to do to be saved or considered a true Christian

 

[Marymog]

Cardinal rule for biblical understanding. The Bible interprets itself with the aid of the holy Spirit.. If you want some examples, happy to oblige.

Lol....All the Reformers said the same thing you are saying. And the Holy Spirit gave all of them a different "biblical understanding' of Scripture. Sooooo was the Holy Spirit confused? Or all the Reformers INCLUDING YOU.

AND you just affirmed what I have been saying this entire time. YOU read Scripture. YOU interpret that Scripture. YOU decide the truth of that Scripture. YOU are a man. But when the men of the Catholic Church read Scripture, YOU say they are wrong in their interpretation. That makes YOU the pillar and foundation of truth. Because YOU believe YOU are guided by the Holy Spirit and if YOU are guided by the Holy Spirit and YOUR truth is different than the men of the Catholic Churches truth then the men of the Catholic Church are wrong and YOU are right......because YOU are guided by the Holy Spirit and they are not.

Cardinal rule: 2 Peter 3:16

 

[Behold]

Sooooo was the Holy Spirit confused?

Was the Holy Spirit confused when the "cult of the Virgin" had.... 4 POPES...., and each of them was saying that the other 3 were the "Anti-Christ". ???

You didnt know this about your confused "dark ages"..."church" ??

Was the Holy Spirit "confused" when the "cult of the virgin", BURNED Joan of Arc to death, and later realized the horrible deed, the mistake, and then tried to hide this MURDER, by now claiming she is a Catholic Saint in '1920 ? ?

 

[Marymog]

Was the Holy Spirit confused when the "cult of the Virgin" had.... 4 POPES...., and each of them was saying that the other 3 were the "Anti-Christ". ???

You didnt know this about your confused "dark ages"..."church" ??

Was the Holy Spirit "confused" when the "cult of the virgin", BURNED Joan of Arc to death, and later realized the horrible deed, the mistake, and then tried to hide this MURDER, by now claiming she is a Catholic Saint in '1920 ? ?

OMG...I have never heard this "cult of virgins"? What is it Behold???

4 POPES???? WHAT??? OMG.........I should stop being Catholic!!

NO, I don't know about my dark ages. PLEASE tell me!!

Joan of Arc? Who is that? Did she live in Saint Louis Missouri?

 

[Behold]

OMG...I have never heard this "cult of virgins"? What is it Behold???

One of your "church fathers" titled your church this in 421ad.

the title "catholic" came later.

Initially, your denomination was titled the "cult of the Virgin"

4 POPES???? WHAT??? OMG.........I should stop being Catholic!!

Yes, its your church's history.
You should learn some of this.... vs just obviously next to nothing... regarding the full history of your own denomination.

NO, I don't know about my dark ages. PLEASE tell me!!

Sure.

The Catholic "dark ages" is an era of time in Europe stretching from the fall of the Western Roman Empire in 476 CE until the Protestant Reformation of 1517.

Joan of Arc? Who is that?

She was a Christian Mystic who is a very famous Historical Figure.

The "cult of the Virgin" captured her, then created a false trial, that led to her being sentenced by the "Cult of Mary", to be burned.

As She was burning, and crying out to Jesus, the Bishops who were there, realized they had made a mistake, by falsely accusing and then sentencing her to death.
This was in '1431

In 1920, the "cult of the Virgin", decided to try to soften that murder... so Pope Benedict XV had her "canonized".

 

[amigo de christo]

I am horrified that after all I have said, you should find cause to affirm that. I have constantly reiterated time and time again, that the scriptures are the final authority in faith and doctrine. The church being described as the foundation and pillar of truth does not contradict God's word as being the final authority. But for the word of God, the church would not exist.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... Sanctify them through The truth, The Word is truth...I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man cometh to the Father except by Me...
KJV Psalms 138:1-8
1 I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.
2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
3 In the day when I cried thou answeredst me, and strengthenedst me with strength in my soul.
4 All the kings of the earth shall praise thee, O LORD, when they hear the words of thy mouth.
5 Yea, they shall sing in the ways of the LORD: for great is the glory of the LORD.
6 Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly: but the proud he knoweth afar off.
7 Though I walk in the midst of trouble, thou wilt revive me: thou shalt stretch forth thine hand against the wrath of mine enemies, and thy right hand shall save me.
8 The LORD will perfect that which concerneth me: thy mercy, O LORD, endureth for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands.

For it is the number of a man and his number is six hundred three score and six .

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

I am horrified that after all I have said, you should find cause to affirm that. I have constantly reiterated time and time again, that the scriptures are the final authority in faith and doctrine. The church being described as the foundation and pillar of truth does not contradict God's word as being the final authority.

The sola scriptura debate deserves its own thread. Why does your "sola scriptura" different from tens of thousands sola scripturists each teaching different doctrines?

​

Matthew 18:17 If the person still refuses to listen, take your case to the church. Then if he or she won’t accept the church’s decision, treat that person as a pagan or a corrupt tax collector.
It doesn't say, If the person still refuses to listen, take your case to the Bible.

But for the word of God, the church would not exist.

You have it backwards. The Church existed before the written Word of God existed. The Bible is a fruit of the Church, a church didn't pop out of a book.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... Sanctify them through The truth, The Word is truth...I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man cometh to the Father except by Me...

That is a teaching borrowed from the Catholic Church. The Bible doesn't confine "the word of God" to the written form alone.

KJV Psalms 138:1-8
1 I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.
2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
3 In the day when I cried thou answeredst me, and strengthenedst me with strength in my soul.
4 All the kings of the earth shall praise thee, O LORD, when they hear the words of thy mouth.

Hear the words, not read the words.

5 Yea, they shall sing in the ways of the LORD: for great is the glory of the LORD.
6 Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly: but the proud he knoweth afar off.
7 Though I walk in the midst of trouble, thou wilt revive me: thou shalt stretch forth thine hand against the wrath of mine enemies, and thy right hand shall save me.
8 The LORD will perfect that which concerneth me: thy mercy, O LORD, endureth for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands.

Lovely verses, but they do not support the unworkable man made tradition of sola scriptura that was invented in the middle ages.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

Was the Holy Spirit confused when the "cult of the Virgin" had.... 4 POPES...., and each of them was saying that the other 3 were the "Anti-Christ". ???

Killing all the popes in the first 3 centuries didn't work, so satan changed his tactics. He attacked the papacy with corruption and that didn't work either. An anti-pope was never the real pope in the first place. Do you have a source for your 4 pope theory or did you just pull it our of your ear?

You didnt know this about your confused "dark ages"..."church" ??

The term “Dark Ages” has been the subject of much debate among historians. Let’s explore some common myths associated with this period:

1. Ignorance and Stagnation: The idea that the medieval period was characterized by ignorance, superstition, and stagnation is a myth. While there were challenges, medieval Europe saw significant advancements in various fields, including art, architecture, philosophy, and science1. For instance, illuminated manuscripts created by Christian monks in Ethiopia demonstrate the flourishing of classical traditions even during this time.
2. Suppression of Science: Contrary to the belief that the medieval Christian church suppressed natural scientists, scientific progress continued. The church did not universally prohibit procedures like autopsies and dissections, and some scholars actively engaged in scientific inquiry2.
3. Fundamental Unknowability: The notion that medieval Europe is fundamentally unknowable is another myth. While historical records may be scarce, researchers have made significant strides in understanding this period. The term “medieval” should not automatically evoke darkness or ignorance3.

In summary, the so-called “Dark Ages” is a misnomer, and the reality is far more nuanced than the myths suggest. Medieval Europe was a dynamic and multifaceted era that contributed to the rich tapestry of human history4.
further reading:

Early Protestant Hostility Towards (and Ignorance Of) Science

Classical "Reformational" Protestantism, generally speaking, was out and out hostile to the burgeoning discoveries of science.

www.patheos.com

Was the Holy Spirit "confused" when the "cult of the virgin", BURNED Joan of Arc to death, and later realized the horrible deed, the mistake, and then tried to hide this MURDER, by now claiming she is a Catholic Saint in '1920 ? ?

Joan of Arc was the victim of a corrupt bishop sucking up to the Anglicans. She was sentenced to death by English anti-Catholic courts, not the Catholic Church.

St. Joan of Arc - Saints & Angels - Catholic Online

St. Joan of Arc is the patroness of soldiers and of France. On January 6, 1412, Joan of Arc was born to pious parents of the French peasant class in the obscure village of Domremy, near the province of Lorraine. At a very early age, she was said to have heard the voices of St. Michael, St. ...

www.catholic.org

Don't do much reading, do you.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

blah, blah blah

​

Ask someone today where Western Civilization originated, and he or she might say Greece or Rome. But what is the ultimate source of Western Civilization? Bestselling author and professor Thomas E. Woods, Jr. (NOT a Catholic) provides the long neglected answer: the Catholic Church. In the new paperback edition of his critically-acclaimed book, How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization, Woods goes far beyond the familiar tale of monks copying manuscripts and preserving the wisdom of classical antiquity. Gifts such as modern science, free-market economics, art, music, and the idea of human rights come from the Catholic Church, explains Woods. In How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization, you’ll learn:

• Why modern science was born in the Catholic Church
• How Catholic priests developed the idea of free-market economics five hundred years before Adam Smith
• How the Catholic Church invented the university
• Why what you know about the Galileo affair is wrong
• How Western law grew out of Church canon law
• How the Church humanized the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life
  No institution has done more to shape Western civilization than the two-thousand-year-old Catholic Church and in ways that many of us have forgotten or never known. How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization is essential reading for recovering this lost truth.

Amazon.com

 

[Cassandra]

How to Avoid Converting to Catholicism, in 8 Easy Steps

As a Protestant convert to Catholicism whose journey culminated at the Easter Vigil earlier this year, I have some experience, oddly enough, in how to become a Catholic. For me, it was a particular, miraculous journey that I’ve been writing about for a few months now. For me, I

www.churchpop.com

summary:

• 1) Don’t Read Scott Hahn One of the first mistakes I made as a Protestant was to read Scott Hahn.
• 2) Don’t Read Church History
• 3) Don’t Read the Early Church Fathers
• 4) Don’t Meet Any Great Catholics
• 5) Don’t Start Living Like a Catholic
• 6) Don’t Give God an Inch
• 7) Don’t Pray
• 8) Don’t Let Your Faith Be Challenged

This is loopy.
Who cares about Scott Hahn? So you let a dude and not the Bible influence you?
Why can't one study church history?
Just because an early church father said something doesn't mean much if the Bible doesn't back it up.
I know a lot of good Catholics. Graduated from a Jesuit College. Family is baptized Catholic, but no Mary stuff here.
I wouldn't live like a Catholic. I love the Lord, no rote prayers, keep the dietary laws, and worship on the 7th day. Also I believe the dead are dead. That includes Mary.
I don't even know what not giving God an inch means. He is my Creator and Redeemer. I Pray to God through Jesus, no other intercessor beside the Lord Jesus.
My prayers again, are not rote. They come from the heart.
Challenge away. Faith in what? the church or the Bible?

 

[Behold]

Killing all the popes in the first 3 centuries didn't work,

"Popes", this title is an invention of the "Cult of Mary".

And your Catholic History, is DECEIVED.

The term “Dark Ages” has been the subject of much debate among historians

The Protestant Reformation, came OUT of the "Dark ages" that WAS the "Cult of the Virgin's" man made religious strangulation.

Thats the "DARK" in the "ages" that is lasted for a long time.

Joan of Arc was the victim of a corrupt bishop sucking up to the Anglicans.

And what is a Bishop?

A Mormon?

So, as i said, and as the history shows.....the bottom line is..... CATHOLICS were the issue.

Bishop Pierre Cauchon and the other bishops together with the Inquisitor were controlled and puppets of the English and they are really determined to punish Joan of Arc for frustrating the plans of the English King of being crowned the King of France

 

[Behold]

View attachment 45802​

. Gifts such as modern science,

Anyone can write a book.
And the publishing companies will pay to have it HYPED.

So, here is what the "cult of the virgin" did for Galileo's SCIENCE.... He became "at odds".... with the Catholic Church because he posited that the Earth was a planet that circled the sun, rather than being the center of the universe with the sun, other stars, and planets all circling the Earth., and that denied the "Catholic" Science.

 

[Ritajanice]

Jesus clearly said "you must be born of water and the Spirit". He said nothing about an emotional experience at an altar call, as valuable as that may be.

The written word which is backed up by Gods witness the Living Holy Spirit..says we have been Born Again of imperishable seed that liveth and abideth forever.

Is that a Living seed or a dead seed?.

What do you think has been Born Again inside of you ?

You seen to be stuck on that one verse of scripture.

We are Born Of water the human birth.

Then we have the Living Spiritual birth...that’s a Living supernatural birth, that can only be done by Gods witness the Living Holy Spirit...you do understand that being Born Again is the Living spiritual rebirth don’t you?

Maybe we can discuss this in the other thread?

As this is about authority of the pope.

 

[Brakelite]

HORRIFIED???? Wow.....!!! How dramatic!!

Scripture is the final authority in faith and doctrine????????????? I don't even know what that means.

Your SDA men read Scripture. They come up with *salvific doctrine by reading that Scripture.
The men of the Catholic Church read Scripture. They come up with *salvific doctrine by reading that Scripture.
The men of the Baptist church read Scripture. They come up with *salvific doctrine by reading that Scripture.

All 3 have different salvific doctrine by reading the same Scripture. Which of those 3 churches is the pillar and foundation of truth in their salvific doctrine?

*salvific doctrine: what you have to do to be saved or considered a true Christian

Unless they have a "thus saith the Lord" in support of their theories, why should we listen to anyone other than scripture? You don't know what final authority in faith and doctrine means?

"To the law and to the testimony. If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." [Isaiah 8:20]

That's what final authority in faith and doctrine means.

God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines, and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority,—not one or all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain "Thus saith the Lord" in its support.

That's what final authority in faith and doctrine means.

 

[Brakelite]

Why does your "sola scriptura" different from tens of thousands sola scripturists each teaching different doctrines?

You have it backwards. The Church existed before the written Word of God existed. The Bible is a fruit of the Church, a church didn't pop out of a book.

To the law and the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:20

 

[Marymog]

Unless they have a "thus saith the Lord" in support of their theories, why should we listen to anyone other than scripture?

Who is "they"? It seems you have chosen the leadership of the SDA? True or not?

 

[Marymog]

Unless they have a "thus saith the Lord" in support of their theories, why should we listen to anyone other than scripture? You don't know what final authority in faith and doctrine means?

"To the law and to the testimony. If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." [Isaiah 8:20]

That's what final authority in faith and doctrine means.

God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines, and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority,—not one or all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain "Thus saith the Lord" in its support.

That's what final authority in faith and doctrine means.

Isaiah 8 and specifically vs 20 has NOTHING to do with what we are discussing.

But since you think it does, WHO is the THEY in that vs? WHO is the THEY in the final authority for Christian doctrine?