Where do aborted babies go?

[Butch5]

What do you think happens to babies if they are aborted?

Can you believe God would send innocent babies to hell? That doesn't seem right to me.

If they go to Heaven, think about it. If they were born, they could become terrible sinners and wind up in hell. If someone killed them first, they'd go to Heaven. So can that be right? Could you be doing a baby a favor by aborting it and sending it to Heaven? That doesn't seem right to me either.

They go to the grave like everyone else. They will remain there till the Resurrection like everyone else.

 

[Scott Downey]

They go to the grave like everyone else. They will remain there till the Resurrection like everyone else.

They go to the grave and are not conscious? is that what you think happens to those who die?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Nope. Many think this, but that does not make it true. The whole of Ezekiel 18 is the general call of the Gospel to salvation, which in the Old Testament was only for the Israelites but in the New Testament ~ with the coming of Jesus ~ is issued/opened to all without distinction, including Gentiles (everyone else). And all the other citations later in your post (

But there is a specific call issued by God only to His elect, which is clear throughout Scripture by all the prophets (from Moses to Micah, including Ezekiel) and all the apostles (from Matthew to John) but most clearly and explicitly by Paul in Romans 8-11. Ezekiel, The general call to mankind is clearly distinguished in Scripture ~ particularly by Paul in Romans 9-11 ~ as opposed to the specific call issued by God to His elect.


LOL! See above. No one who understands Scripture as John Calvin (and Augustine centuries before him) did "isolates" or "removes" anything from God's Word. The great irony of your statement here is that you are isolating Ezekiel 18:31 from the rest of Scripture, and even from the rest of Ezekiel's prophecy, and really even from the rest of Ezekiel 18. Isolating very specific verses here and there and making the Bible out to say something other than it does is the problem. We ~ a general 'we' and not just Calvinists... :) ~ call that "cherry-picking." :)


There's the "forcing a new heart" meme again. It's just utterly ridiculous. God has mercy and compassion on whom He will have mercy and compassion. This is His grace, which He would be fully justified in not granting to anyone.


Clearly not. Salvation is of the Lord. The central truth of God’s saving grace is succinctly stated in the assertion, “Salvation is of the Lord.” This strong declaration means that every aspect of man’s salvation is from God and is entirely dependent upon God ~ which Paul says explicitly in Romans 9:16, that "it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." The only contribution that we make is the sin that was laid upon Jesus Christ at the cross. Paul affirmed this when he wrote in Romans 11:36, “From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.” This is to say, salvation is God determined, God purchased, God applied, and God secured. From start to finish, salvation is of the Lord alone.


No, the other way around. Man being born again cannot be a result of what he has done for several reasons:

1. man is not alive before he is born and therefore cannot do or choose anything, much less to be born

2. to think man's choice results in him being born again makes faith out to be a work of man rather than a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-10)

3. to think man's choice results in him being born again makes God's grace (unmerited favor) out to be the opposite of grace (merited favor). As Paul says, "...if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace." (Romans 11:6)

4. to think man's choice results in him being born again is a direct contradiction to the following passages (among many others):

a. "Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills." (Romans 9:14-18)

b. "God... saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began..." (2 Timothy 1:9)

c. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5)​

Nope. Let's look at it (with verse 25):

"Now to Him Who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of His glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen."​

There is absolutely nothing in there about Christians doing ~ or not doing, for that matter ~ anything. Nothing. Now, in the preceding verses, there is a call to Christians to persevere in the face of trials and tribulations ~ "keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life... have mercy on those who doubt; save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear" (vv.21-23) ~ but this is what we are called to do since we have been the recipients of God's grace. And we are able to persevere, and will, because God is able to keep us from stumbling and to present us blameless before the presence of His glory with great joy (vv.24-25).


The only problem is the problem that many think they have ~ because it is merely contrived ~ with Calvinism.

Grace and peace to you.

Ezekiel 18:31 definitively shows man has a role in his own salvation, a role in receiving a new heart and spirit from God. So there is no Calvinistic monergism..Ezekiel 18:31 God would give every one a new heart and spirit or else God is causing Himself displeasure which makes no sense. Yet God has instructed man to "turn yourselves".

Romans 8-11 is very anti-Calvinism. Back under the OT law, the Jews were God's elect and not the Gentiles. Yet Romans 8-11 we see the elect Jews being broken off and the Gentiles being grafted in. An impossibility under Calvinism. So salvation is not about God capriciously, unconditionally electing certain individuals to salvation but Romans 11 Paul shows that God's people have always been those who conditionally obey Him. So anyone and everyone who conditionally obeys the gospel of Christ becomes of God's elect receiving a new heart and spirit.

You have no issues with Ezekiel 11:19 for you assume it teaches monergism. Yet Ezekiel 18:31 "throws a wrench" into Calvinism. So you leave Ezekiel 11:19 alone while trying to give long "explanations" to try and find away to get around Ezekiel 18:31. The Bible is its own best commentary and Acts 2 gives explanation of Ezekiel 18:31:

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Cast away all your transgression is when men repent and baptized having sins remitted thereby receiving a new heart and spirit. The fact both cast away your transgression and repent and be baptized are imperatives imply man has a role in his own salvation by obeying those imperatives. No reason to give imperatives to men to obey if salvation is monergistic. Obeying the imperatives is man's role in salvation in receiving a new heart and spirit. God commands, man obeys..synergism.

 

[Scott Downey]

Ezekiel 18:31 definitively shows man has a role in his own salvation, a role in receiving a new heart and spirit from God. So there is no Calvinistic monergism..Ezekiel 18:31 God would give every one a new heart and spirit or else God is causing Himself displeasure which makes no sense. Yet God has instructed man to "turn yourselves".

Romans 8-11 is very anti-Calvinism. Back under the OT law, the Jews were God's elect and not the Gentiles. Yet Romans 8-11 we see the elect Jews being broken off and the Gentiles being grafted in. An impossibility under Calvinism. So salvation is not about God capriciously, unconditionally electing certain individuals to salvation but Romans 11 Paul shows that God's people have always been those who conditionally obey Him. So anyone and everyone who conditionally obeys the gospel of Christ becomes of God's elect receiving a new heart and spirit.

You have no issues with Ezekiel 11:19 for you assume it teaches monergism. Yet Ezekiel 18:31 "throws a wrench" into Calvinism. So you leave Ezekiel 11:19 alone while trying to give long "explanations" to try and find away to get around Ezekiel 18:31. The Bible is its own best commentary and Acts 2 gives explanation of Ezekiel 18:31:

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Cast away all your transgression is when men repent and baptized having sins remitted thereby receiving a new heart and spirit. The fact both cast away your transgression and repent and be baptized are imperatives imply man has a role in his own salvation by obeying those imperatives. No reason to give imperatives to men to obey if salvation is monergistic. Obeying the imperatives is man's role in salvation in receiving a new heart and spirit. God commands, man obeys..synergism.

You are arguing against a major New Covenant doctrine using the Old Covenant relationship though.
The OC is over and out, it has passed away, look at Hebrews 8, that tells you how it works.
Hebrews 8
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The NC is entirely God sided, in fact it goes right back to Abraham before the OC was established where God caused a deep sleep onto Abraham, God walked between the carcasses alone without Abraham also joining in the walk. God is in charge here, not man.

The fulfillment of this covenant is entirely dependent on God, and not on man.

Genesis 15
12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him. 13 Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 Now as for you, you shall [d]go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”

17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:

“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You are arguing against a major New Covenant doctrine using the Old Covenant relationship though.
The OC is over and out, it has passed away, look at Hebrews 8, that tells you how it works.
Hebrews 8
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The NC is entirely God sided, in fact it goes right back to Abraham before the OC was established where God caused a deep sleep onto Abraham, God walked between the carcasses alone without Abraham also joining in the walk. God is in charge here, not man.

The fulfillment of this covenant is entirely dependent on God, and not on man.

Genesis 15
12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him. 13 Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 Now as for you, you shall [d]go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”

17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:

“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”

I understand the OT law has been taken out of the way. Yet the OT (in this case Ezekiel 11:19) has been used for a long time as an attempt to "prove" Calvinistic monergism where one can have an new hear and spirit only if given to one by God. I simply used the OT to refute that Calvinistic idea for that idea is not found in the OT or NT.

 

[rockytopva]

Could it be that the souls of aborted babies will be delivered into the 1,000 year millennial where they will be able to choose between good and evil?

 

[rockytopva]

Well… David lost a child and said….

19 But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead.
20 Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the Lord, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat.
21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. - 2 Samuel 12

So…. I would think Heaven a good vote as well.

 

[Scott Downey]

Could it be that the souls of aborted babies will be delivered into the 1,000 year millennial where they will be able to choose between good and evil?

No, the choice is already made for them. God does not recycle departed souls into another flesh body. smacks of Hinduism. David at his death like you note goes to the infant and will see him again.

 

[Butch5]

They go to the grave and are not conscious? is that what you think happens to those who die?

Yes. There is no consciousness in death. People return to the dust.

 

[PinSeeker]

Could it be that the souls of aborted babies will be delivered into the 1,000 year millennial where they will be able to choose between good and evil?

LOL! That's a new thought... :) So, no, because the millennium of Revelation 20, which is not a woodenly literal 1000-year period but rather the completeness of God's time in constructing His true Israel (which includes the fullness of the Gentiles), is going on now. It is not future only, but, well has been going on since the coming of the Holy Spirit (Pentecost) and lasting to the return of the King (Jesus; see what I did there? A Lord of the Rings reference...). Anyway, as Paul says in Romans 11:25-26, "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in... in this way all Israel will be saved." Jesus talked about the end of the age many times; this "age" is synonymous with the "these last days God has spoken to us by his Son" in Hebrews 1:1 and the millennium of Revelation 20, over the course of which the dead are coming to life and reigning with Christ (Revelation 20:4).

Grace and peace to you, RTVa.

 

[PinSeeker]

Ezekiel 18:31 definitively shows man has a role in his own salvation, a role in receiving a new heart and spirit from God.

Yes, but not in the way that you suppose. There is no "synergism" in God giving man a new heart and a new spirit, removing the heart of stone from their flesh and giving them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in His statutes and keep His rules ~ which is found in both Ezekiel 11 and Ezekiel 36, and is repeated by Paul in various places and ways in the New Testament, particularly in Romans 8, where, referring directly to Ezekiel 11 and 36, he says:

"You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He Who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you." [Romans 8:9-11]

Moreover, Paul does the same thing in Romans 9-11 that Ezekiel does in the course of his prophecy with particular correlation to Ezekiel 11:19, 18:11, and 36:26-27. Observe:

"And I..." (God) "...will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I..." (again, God) "...will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in My..." (God's) "...statutes and keep My..." (God's) "...rules and obey them. And they shall be My..." (God's) "...people, and I..." (God) "...will be their God."

[Ezekiel 11:19-20; note that there is no "synergism" between God and man here, it is all God, as man is only referred to in response to God's work]​

"Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live.”

[Ezekiel 18:31-32; this is the very end of Ezekiel 18, where, in the entirety of the chapter, Ezekiel relates God's general call to repentance of all people in the covenant community of Israel; verses 31-32 are parallel to verses 21-24 of this same chapter, which say, "But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die."]​

"I..." (God) "...will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I..." (God) "...will cleanse you. And I..." (God) "...will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I..." (God) "...will put within you. And I..." (God) "...will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I..." (God) "...will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My..." (God's) "...statutes and be careful to obey My..." (God's) "...rules. You shall dwell in the land that I..." (God) "...gave to your fathers, and you shall be My..." (God's) "...people, and I..." (God) "...will be your God. And I..." (God) "...will deliver you from all your uncleannesses."

[Ezekiel 36:25-29; as in Ezekiel 11 above, there is no "synergism" between God and man, it is all God]​

Paul condenses this same A (God's work) // B (God's general call) // A (God's work) sequence in Romans 9-11 thusly:

"...when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad ~ in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him..." (God) "...Who calls ~ she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I...' (God) '...loved, but Esau I...' (God) '...hated.' What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For He says to Moses, 'I...' (God) '...will have mercy on whom I...' (God) '...have mercy, and I...' (God) '...will have compassion on whom I...' (God) '...have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I...' (God) '...have raised you up, that I...' (God) '...might show My...' (God's) '...power in you, and that My...' (God's) '...Name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He..." (God) "...has mercy on whomever He..." (God) "...wills, and He..." (God) "...hardens whomever He..." (God) "...wills."

[Romans 9]​

"For 'everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved'..." (which, like John 3:16, is referring directly to Joel 2:32, which says "And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls"). "...Isaiah is so bold as to say, 'I have been found by those who did not seek Me; I have shown Myself to those who did not ask for Me.' But of Israel he says, 'All day long I...' (God) '...have held out My...' (God's) '...hands to a disobedient and contrary people.'”

[Romans 10]​

"Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, 'The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will banish ungodliness from Jacob'; 'and this will be My...' (God's) '...covenant with them when I...' (God) '...take away their sins.' ... For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that He..." (God) "...may have mercy on all. Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His..." (God's) "...judgments and how inscrutable His..." (God's) "...ways! 'For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been His..." (God's) "...counselor? Or who has given a gift to Him..." (God) "...that He..." (God) "...might be repaid?' For from Him..." (God) "...and through Him..." (God) "...and to Him..." (God) "...are all things. To Him..." (God) "...be glory forever. Amen."

[Romans 11]​

Continued below...

 

[PinSeeker]

So a few clean-up items:

Romans 8-11 is very anti-Calvinism

John Calvin, and those who understand as He did, affirm to the utmost Romans 8-11.

Back under the OT law, the Jews were God's elect and not the Gentiles. Yet Romans 8-11 we see the elect Jews being broken off and the Gentiles being grafted in. An impossibility under Calvinism.

Well no, because, as Paul is sure to say in Romans 9:6-8, "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring."

So salvation is not about God capriciously...

I certainly agree that God is not characterized by or liable to sudden unpredictable changes in attitude or behavior, or impulsive or fickle in any way. God certainly has a purpose in everything He does, and that would be His glory.

...unconditionally electing certain individuals to salvation.

As is the case with another poster here (Robert Derrick), this is a mixture of two concepts that, while they are certainly connected, are not to be connected in this way. The 'U' in the "tulip" acronym is not "unconditional salvation," because that would be synonymous with universalism, which some people do in fact believe, but is a heresy. Rather, the 'U' is "unconditional election," which is, to put it succinctly, a restatement of exactly what Moses and Paul say, that God has mercy on whom He has mercy, compassion on whom He has compassion, so it therefore depends not on human will or human works (men certainly have wills ~ no one denies that ~ but it initially depends on God's will and whether or not He has mercy/compassion upon the individual; obedience is a work of man).

Yet Ezekiel 18:31 "throws a wrench" into Calvinism. So you leave Ezekiel 11:19 alone while trying to give long "explanations" to try and find away to get around Ezekiel 18:31.

It absolutely does not "throw a wrench" into the Reformers understanding of Scripture; see above. Arminians (those who believe as Jacobus Arminius did) isolate Ezekiel 18:31 and take it out of the context of Ezekiel 18, and additionally isolate it at the expense of Ezekiel 11:19-20 and Ezekiel 36:25-29.

The Bible is its own best commentary.

Now this, I agree with. God is most certainly His own arbiter. Yes. But, while this is not the intent, Arminians really kind of go against that principle, at least here and there, and this is what's happening here. Again, see above, in particular the A/B/A relationship of Ezekiel 11, 18, and 36, which is in absolutely paralleled by Paul in Romans 9, 10, and 11.

Acts 2 gives explanation of Ezekiel 18:31...

I agree completely, but, well, not in the way that you are pushing it. Acts 2 (and really the whole of Acts after Pentecost in Acts 2) is very parallel with the "B passages" above (Ezekiel 18 and Romans 10). All those passages are all about God's general call to repentance and belief, which is for all men.

Obeying the imperatives is man's role in salvation in receiving a new heart and spirit. God commands, man obeys..synergism."

Nope. Sorry, but no. Obeying God's statutes is a result of mans having received a new heart and spirit, as the "A passages" above state without a shred of inconsistency or lack of clarity. And Paul states this over and over in his letters to different churches (as well as the other apostles), a great example being Ephesians 2:4-10...

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."​

Yes, the Bible is indeed its own best commentary. Even Jesus said so, in His conversation with Nicodemus:

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”​

Grace and peace to you, Ernest T.

 

[PinSeeker]

There is no consciousness in death. People return to the dust.

Well, this is true of their physical bodies, sure. But all will be reunited with their physical bodies at Jesus's return... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yes, but not in the way that you suppose. There is no "synergism" in God giving man a new heart and a new spirit, removing the heart of stone from their flesh and giving them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in His statutes and keep His rules ~ which is found in both Ezekiel 11 and Ezekiel 36, and is repeated by Paul in various places and ways in the New Testament, particularly in Romans 8, where, referring directly to Ezekiel 11 and 36, he says:

"You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He Who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you." [Romans 8:9-11]

Moreover, Paul does the same thing in Romans 9-11 that Ezekiel does in the course of his prophecy with particular correlation to Ezekiel 11:19, 18:11, and 36:26-27. Observe:

"And I..." (God) "...will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I..." (again, God) "...will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in My..." (God's) "...statutes and keep My..." (God's) "...rules and obey them. And they shall be My..." (God's) "...people, and I..." (God) "...will be their God."

[Ezekiel 11:19-20; note that there is no "synergism" between God and man here, it is all God, as man is only referred to in response to God's work]​

"Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live.”

[Ezekiel 18:31-32; this is the very end of Ezekiel 18, where, in the entirety of the chapter, Ezekiel relates God's general call to repentance of all people in the covenant community of Israel; verses 31-32 are parallel to verses 21-24 of this same chapter, which say, "But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die."]​

"I..." (God) "...will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I..." (God) "...will cleanse you. And I..." (God) "...will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I..." (God) "...will put within you. And I..." (God) "...will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I..." (God) "...will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My..." (God's) "...statutes and be careful to obey My..." (God's) "...rules. You shall dwell in the land that I..." (God) "...gave to your fathers, and you shall be My..." (God's) "...people, and I..." (God) "...will be your God. And I..." (God) "...will deliver you from all your uncleannesses."

[Ezekiel 36:25-29; as in Ezekiel 11 above, there is no "synergism" between God and man, it is all God]​

Paul condenses this same A (God's work) // B (God's general call) // A (God's work) sequence in Romans 9-11 thusly:

"...when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad ~ in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him..." (God) "...Who calls ~ she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I...' (God) '...loved, but Esau I...' (God) '...hated.' What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For He says to Moses, 'I...' (God) '...will have mercy on whom I...' (God) '...have mercy, and I...' (God) '...will have compassion on whom I...' (God) '...have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I...' (God) '...have raised you up, that I...' (God) '...might show My...' (God's) '...power in you, and that My...' (God's) '...Name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He..." (God) "...has mercy on whomever He..." (God) "...wills, and He..." (God) "...hardens whomever He..." (God) "...wills."

[Romans 9]​

"For 'everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved'..." (which, like John 3:16, is referring directly to Joel 2:32, which says "And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls"). "...Isaiah is so bold as to say, 'I have been found by those who did not seek Me; I have shown Myself to those who did not ask for Me.' But of Israel he says, 'All day long I...' (God) '...have held out My...' (God's) '...hands to a disobedient and contrary people.'”

[Romans 10]​

"Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, 'The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will banish ungodliness from Jacob'; 'and this will be My...' (God's) '...covenant with them when I...' (God) '...take away their sins.' ... For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that He..." (God) "...may have mercy on all. Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His..." (God's) "...judgments and how inscrutable His..." (God's) "...ways! 'For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been His..." (God's) "...counselor? Or who has given a gift to Him..." (God) "...that He..." (God) "...might be repaid?' For from Him..." (God) "...and through Him..." (God) "...and to Him..." (God) "...are all things. To Him..." (God) "...be glory forever. Amen."

[Romans 11]​

Continued below...

The synergy between God and man is certainly in the Bible. Because Calvinism tries to dismiss many verses (Ezekiel 18:31; Acts of the Apostles 2:40; 1 Timothy 4:16; 2 Corinthians 7:1; James 4:8; 1 Peter 1:22; etc does not take away the synergism.

Romans 9 is not a discourse on Calvinism. Paul already knows the once elected Jews have been broken off, so the elect can be broken off. What Paul is doing in Romans 9 is disputing some long held false beliefs of the Jews and proves that God was just and righteous in breaking off the Jews and that God did not act unrighteously towards the Jews in breaking them as the Jews may have argued. No Calvinism to be found remotely at all in Romans 9. Those that are lost are lost due to their own fault and choices not because of a choice God made for them.

 

[PinSeeker]

The synergy between God and man is certainly in the Bible.

Not regarding salvation. Salvation is of the Lord, not "of the Lord and man."

Because Calvinism tries to dismiss many verses (Ezekiel 18:31; Acts of the Apostles 2:40; 1 Timothy 4:16; 2 Corinthians 7:1; James 4:8; 1 Peter 1:22; etc does not take away the synergism.

Calvinists dismiss no part of God's infallible, inerrant word. Try as you might, ignoring what I said in the previous post does not negate what I said... really what the Bible says... in any way. :) And I know it's unintentional, but what you say of Calvinists is, ironically, exactly what Arminians do, as I said above.

Romans 9 is not a discourse on Calvinism.

LOL! Sure, but John Calvin's and Calvinists' exegesis of Romans 9 is correct.

Paul already knows the once elected Jews have been broken off, so the elect can be broken off.

No, because, as you may recall, Paul begins Romans 9 by saying the following:

"For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.'"​

You're premise here is backwards, or at least not recognizing of the fact that, per Paul (ultimately the Holy Spirit, Whom Paul is inspired by (the Word of God is breathed into him).

What Paul is doing in Romans 9 is disputing some long held false beliefs of the Jews

Well sure, he was telling him that they were no different or better or more deserving of God's salvation than Gentiles, but no less so; this was pretty much the point of his ministry, or at least one of them.

...and proves that God was just and righteous in breaking off the Jews...

No, that God was just and righteous in not extending His mercy and compassion to some (not all) Israelites, and just and righteous in extending His mercy and compassion to some (not all) Gentiles.

...and that God did not act unrighteously towards the Jews in breaking them as the Jews may have argued.

No, that God did not act unrighteously, as I said, in not extending His mercy and compassion to some (not all) Israelites.

No Calvinism to be found remotely at all in Romans 9.

Calvinism/Schmalvinism. :) Romans 9 is Romans 9. "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Those that are lost are lost due to their own fault and choices not because of a choice God made for them.

God has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and compassion on whom He will have compassion. The "whom" here being His elect.

Grace and peace to you.