When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?

[Timtofly]

The 7th seal is the day of the Lord. The one year day of His wrath.

The 7th Seal is only about a 30 minutes of silence just before the first Trumpet sounds. Nothing else happens. People are waiting for that first Trumpet to sound.

"And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour."

The Day of the Lord is the thousand year reign according to Peter in 2 Peter 3, and John in Revelation 20.

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night."

"they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

"and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Jesus has to come to earth and clean up the mess before the Day of the Lord can be experienced.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus is in heaven for the marriage supper. He does not go to the earth, He remains in the clouds

The marriage was never a literal marriage. That is symbolism along with a divorce and playing the harlot.

Jesus is on the earth at the 6th Seal because he is gathering his Israelite bride.

The church is still a bride after the Millennium. When did Jesus divorce the church to remarry after the millennium?

"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

This does not say "as a wife".

The marriage supper in Revelation 19 is with Israel for the 1,000 year reign of Christ. There is no literal ceremony, but all symbolism.

The sheep in Matthew 25 is the Israel bride being gathered on earth after the 6th Seal is opened. The church is waiting after being glorified in the 5th Seal. The church is still waiting a thousand years later, in Paradise, until the church descends as the New Jerusalem in the NHNE.

The church does not come on white horses to Armageddon. That is the remnant of Israel (that bride, now wife, Matthew 25) and final harvest of all Gentile nations, the harvest of wheat (Matthew 13) after the Second Coming who inherit the earth for the Millennial Kingdom.

The wise and foolish bridesmades are about Israel. Some were raptured with the church. Some were the sheep, and millennial bride, gathered after Jesus was sitting as King in Jerusalem. The earthly kingdom is the earthly, Israel bride. The heavenly kingdom is the church and the New Jerusalem bride.

Jesus was physically on the earth at the first coming. Jesus will be physically on the earth at the Second Coming. Coming to the Mount of Olives is at the 6th Seal. Jesus did not leave on a white horse, from the Mount of Olives. Armageddon is not the return to the Mount of Olives, but the mount of Megiddo. The 6th Seal is Zechariah 14. Jesus is not stepping off a white horse onto the Mount of Olives in Zechariah 14, nor any other Second Coming reference. Jesus is coming to earth, feet first, at the 6th Seal to the Mount of Olives after the church was glorified and raptured in the 5th Seal. Those two Seals are opened in a blink of an eye. John slows down the pace for details that happen in a millionth of a second.

 

[Timtofly]

Tribulation is not the wrath of God.

The great tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal.........................IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS..............what happens........The sun and moon are darkened and starts fall from heaven.

What happens at the 6th seal?...................the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven.

You should with the above information be able to conclude that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The 7th seal is the wrath of God. Tribulation is NOT wrath.

What tribulation do you think is over at the rapture/Second Coming? The time of Jacob's Trouble or the tribulation of the church? Does the church stay on the earth for Jacob's trouble, and Israel is raptured or is the church raptured and Israel, on earth, goes through the time of Jacob's Trouble?

Which is this time of great tribulation of those days in regards to: the church or Jacob?

Those days are not Jacob's trouble in the Seals. Jacob's trouble happens after Jesus is sitting on the throne in Judgment over Jacob. Of course the church is gone, but Jacob is not. Those 144k are of Jacob, not the church. They are protected during Jacob's Trouble. They are on the earth during the Trumpets and Thunders because Jesus is on the earth during the Trumpets and Thunders. Jesus came to the Mount of Olives at the 6th Seal and does not leave until necessary.

"These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." Revelation 14:4

Explain how these are with Jesus always, if Jesus is not on the earth with them? Explain why they need to be protected on the earth, if they are not on the earth? They were the firstfruits, immediately after the Second Coming at the 6th Seal. They were sealed before the 7th Seal was opened. The church was already in heaven before the 7th Seal was opened. The church was told to wait in the 5th Seal, because that was the church being glorified as complete sons of God.

Jesus is not declared King of every nation until the 7th Trumpet, but He is sitting on His glorious throne in a Temple in Jerusalem, because that is what Zechariah 14 and Matthew 25 declare. Yes, Matthew and Mark place Jesus on the earth on the mount of Olives at the 6th Seal. That is the Second Coming after the fig tree blooms.

But that is after the church's tribulation of "those days", the last 2 millennia. The Second Coming is not after Jacob's trouble. The 144k are sealed after the Second Coming in preparation for the time of Jacob's trouble the first 6 Trumpets: Revelation 7:3

"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

How is this postponing the Seals, when it is talking about postponing the Trumpets? The Seals do not hurt the sea, trees, and earth. That is the descriptions found in the Trumpets:

"The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up."

So the 144k were protected and still on the earth during this Trumpet, because they were impervious / sealed. In my opinion they have permanent incorruptible physical bodies that could walk through fire like the 3 Hebrews in the fiery furnace. Jesus was also with those 3 Hebrews on the earth, just like the 144k at the Second Coming. The 144k would withstand all these events all the way up to the 7th Trumpet. They would not be raptured. They would leave on white horses, with Jesus, and return just like they left to the Mount of Megiddo. They wait on heavenly Mount Zion during those last 42 months when Satan is in control of mystery Babylon. Jesus leaves the earth, during those 42 months, after the 7th Trumpet sounds, when the 144k leave.

John never tells us when and how they left, but he tells when and how they return.

 

[Timtofly]

UNTIL the second resurrection when we read that they will be the only raised up to stand for judgment. There is NOTHIING "blessed and holy" about the Second Resurrection!

There is no second resurrection. That is an imagined assumption. It would still be the first resurrection for those still in their graves.

There is a negative point made by John here:

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

Those beheaded lived not again until they stood in Judgment. The first resurrection is living again. Those physically dead can only be resurrected once. That is the first / physical resurrection.

Those beheaded were not alive until given a permanent incorruptible physical body. That was the Judgment awarded them. What redeemed person has to stand and be judged before they can be redeemed and given physical life?

You are assuming those beheaded were redeemed prior to being beheaded. That is not the case. If that were true they would not be standing in Judgment waiting for redemption.

Even if you falsely allege the first resurrection is merely spiritual, those beheaded were not "spiritually resurrected" (your alleged first resurrection) until they stood in Judgment.

It is not inherent in Revelation 20 that there is a chronological first resurrection followed by a second resurrection. Nor is it implied that one is to eternal life and the other is not to eternal life. The first resurrection is awarded to those made alive at either Judgment.

John could have written:

"They lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the second resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in either resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him forever."

But he did not!

The resurrection outcome is still the same each time. What could happen is both groups could receive the spiritual birth for the first time and a physical body for eternal life. Why?

Because both were in a spiritual and physical state of death. The only difference is one group was physically beheaded for an explicit reason, and the other group was simply dead. It assumed that all in the first group were awarded eternal life, while all in the second group was awarded the LOF. Except the second group could live again, if that was the outcome of the Judgment handed down. It is assumed the majority would not live again.

"the rest of the dead lived not again"

"Living again" is how you use the first resurrection as defined to be a spiritual birth. Otherwise you could call neither judgment, one that gives spiritual life. If they had had a spiritual birth they would not be "the dead".

So how can you say the first resurrection takes place both prior to physical death and after physical death? You would not be able to use either first or second as qualifiers for your resurrection, as the whole point is that these people in both cases needed a physical resurrection equally.

And in both cases since they were physically dead, and many since before the Flood, they also needed a spiritual birth, as they all were spiritually dead as well.

That is the reason why there were 2 different times this resurrection was applicable. That is why there is a negative connotation, instead of a positive connotation regarded living again. They all were physically dead in both cases. They all needed a physical resurrection. They all needed both a spiritual birth and a physical resurrection. Both could not be spiritually alive, because they all, in both instances, needed the same set of circumstances: facing judgment and waiting for a sentence handed down to them. But the spiritual should never be called a resurrection. It is always the second birth. The spiritual is called the second birth whether they are physically dead or not.

One does not need either to be tossed into the LOF.

I did not respond to your whole post, because your conclusion that the first resurrection is not physical makes no sense. You are declaring that neither the first resurrection nor the second resurrection are physically eternal life. So there is never a physical resurrection at all that you can even call a resurrection but something else other than a resurrection as you say, "will be only raised up to stand for judgment". Well those beheaded were only raised up to stand in judgment, so that was not a first resurrection either then according to you, but a second resurrection, the first time, where the other group has to wait until a later time to stand in judgment. Both groups stood in Judgment after physical death. All of the first group received redemption at that Judgment. At the second Judgment some could receive redemption, but others will not, because both events claim those "raised" cannot have the resurrection of life (the first resurrection) until after they are judged. Not that they need life to be judged.

You are using two specified events with time in-between to create a doctrine called the "first resurrection" where both events have the dead standing in Judgment. One group was beheaded the other group dead from all types of causes, over a 6,000+ year time frame. Yet you call one good, and the other bad per a chronological order. The only thing "good" about the first group was that they were beheaded, not because they had the second birth nor the "first resurrection" while alive.

John never once in Revelation 20 claimed to see people in physical bodies standing in Judgment, nor that they even needed a body to be judged. He saw souls and the dead implying they have no physical bodies, until they were judged and awarded a first resurrection with a physical body, and an assumed second birth, both states awarded after they were judged, preventing them from the second death, which was the action of being tossed into the LOF. The majority of the dead did not live again, but were cast into the LOF, never receiving the first resurrection nor the second birth.

The first resurrection applying to the fact they could live again, which is not a birth, but a resurrection of the physical body. The second birth does not place one into a spiritual body. The second birth makes you a son of God guaranteed a different physical body that is of God (spiritual) permanent and incorruptible.

 

[The Light]

So the 3rd woe is part of the first 4 Seals along with the sounding of the 7th Trumpet at the beginning of the Seals?

That is not what I am saying. The 7th trumpet is the END. Christ has set up His kingdom. Armageddon is already over. There is no woe left to be completed. It's all done when the 7th trumpet sounds. Wrath is over and it is a time of judgement.

You must be one of those who think the first Seal, first Trumpet, first Thunder, and first vial of God's wrath, all happen in the same instant?

Nope.

Then the second event of each type happens sometime later? So when is the resting a little while happening, during the latter events? Except you have the 7th Trumpet happening first, before anything, along with the 3rd woe, prior to everything else.

All the seals happen in order. The 7th tumpet which is in the 7th seal is the end. It time for judgement. There is no 3rd woe to happen after the 7th trumpet sounds.

This is Scripture, the 7th Trumpet declares that Jesus is now King over all nation's, and definitely already on earth.

Exactly.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Are you saying this happens back in the first Seals? Because the third woe is not Jesus declared King of the world. The third woe is this:

No. When the 7th trumpet sounds Christ has set up His kingdom on the earth. There is no third woe remaining. It's all over.

"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

The short time is described in Revelation 13. You then say that actually happened at the first Seal, to be your great tribulation?

After the 7th trumpet sounds, the wrath of God is over. It's time for the millennial kingdom. There is no woe coming on the earth after this point.

Revelation 14 ends the week of the days of the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 10:6-7

"And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

When the 7th Trumpet stops sounding the 70 weeks of Daniel 9, are finally completed. Revelation 14 is that final end. Then you put the end of the 70 weeks before Jesus is even on the earth as Prince?

No. Revelation 14 is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal...............is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24. This occurs immediately after the tribulation and BEFORE wrath. Wrath is the 7th seal, Day of the Lord.

How does all this time travel working out for you, since you dismiss the progressive chronological order of the final harvest.

You don't understand what you are reading.

The seals happen in chronological order 1 thru 7
The 1st 4 seals are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24
The 5th seal is the great tribulation of Matthew 24
The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus, the second coming of Matthew 24
The 7th seal is the Day of the Lord, the wrath of God.

When the 7th trumpet of the 7th seal sounds............it's finished. There is no third woe to happen. It has already happened. The millennial kingdom is set up. The 1000 year reign of Christ on earth has started.

You can throw away, Revelation 13,14,15, and 16. You don't need it. Or if you want more information, you can read Revelation 13 and 14 and realize the events happen in the 1st 6 seal. You can read Revelation 15 and 16 and realize the events happen in the 7th seal.

I'm not sure how I can make it any clearer to you.

That being the church is removed at the 5th Seal.

The Church is removed before the seals are opened, and can be seen in heaven in Revelation 5.
The 5th seal is the great tribulation.

Then Jesus as Prince, is sitting in Judgment over His people during the first 6 Trumpets.

All 7 trumpets are the 7th seal Day of the Lord.

Then the rest of the nations are gathered per Matthew 13, during the 7 Thunders. Then the 7th Trumpet declares the harvest is over, and Jesus is the 7th Kingdom throughout the Day of the Lord, a thousand years per 2 Peter 3.

The day of the Lord is the day of wrath. It is one year from the time Jesus comes for the harvest at the 6th seal......which can be seen in Matthew 24......and Rev 14.

I am not saying how long Jesus is going to be on the earth between the Second Coming and the 7th Trumpet

Jesus does not touch the earth the second coming. All eyes see the coming of the Lord, but He remains in the clouds.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

. A day, a week, a month, a year, longer? No one knows, because no one knows when the Second Coming happens, but the time is shortened, meaning it will not last 3.5 years. John never put those events onto a timeline like many here have attempted. But John never went back in time either and started overlapping events, like many want to do. The coming of the Day of the Lord is the return of the Prince to come, with a baptism of fire: Matthew 3:11-12

The day of the Lord is the day of wrath. It is one year.

Isaiah 13
6 Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

Look up "day of the Lord" in bible gateway. It will give you every passage.

Joel 1
Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
Does this sound like the millennial reign of Christ.?

 

[The Light]

The heavens will roll back as a scroll, and all the works on earth will be burned up, at the 6th Seal.

Along with that, Zechariah 14 says the geography of the earth will change as echoed here: Revelation 6:14-15

"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;"

The great tribulation is about to come down on them, and there is no escaping.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

The 6th seal is the end of the Great tribulation.

IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days, the sun and moon are darkened and the star fall from heaven.

What happens at the 6th seal? The sun and moon is darkened and the stars fall from heaven.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. THIS IS A TIME STAMP. You can determine the great tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. You can determine that Jesus returns and send His angels at the 6th seal.

This is basic logic.

 

[The Light]

Because Revelation 14 is still describing the 7th Trumpet. That is the only event being described from Revelation 10 after the 7 Thunders to Revelation 19.

You claim John traveled back in time to the opening of the first few Seals.

The third woe is attached to the 7th Trumpet. That woe is Satan cast to the earth and being the 8th world kingdom, called mystery Babylon, based in Jerusalem, on the throne Jesus was sitting on, when the 7th Trumpet sounded.

Revelation 14 has nothing to do with the Seals whatsoever.

Nooooooooooooooooo!

Revelation 14 occurs in the 1st 6 seals. When the 7th trumpet sounds ITS FINISHED. Jesus has set up His kingdom on the earth. There is no third woe to happen. It's over. Its the time of judgement and the millennial reign.

When you are reading Rev 13 and 14 you are back in the 1st six seals.

This is the 5th seal

Revelation 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

This is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Revelation 15 and 16 occur in the 7th seal.

 

[The Light]

You claim John traveled back in time to the opening of the first few Seals.

No I didn't. John had another vision. The vision of the 7 seals was already complete.

There is no travel back in time. There is a new vision about the same timeframe.

The third woe is attached to the 7th Trumpet. That woe is Satan cast to the earth and being the 8th world kingdom, called mystery Babylon, based in Jerusalem, on the throne Jesus was sitting on, when the 7th Trumpet sounded.

When the 7th trumpet sounds IT'S OVER. There is no 3rd woe to happen. When the 7th trumpet sounds it is the time of judgement. It is the time the millennial kingdom is set up.

Then you get a new vision in Revelation 12 and you get an new vision in Rev 13 and 14. The vision in Revelation 12 takes you way back in time and then into the great tribulation.

The vision in Rev 13 and 14 occurs in the 1st 6 seal.

Understand what you are reading.

Revelation 14 has nothing to do with the Seals whatsoever.

Revelation 14 shows you that the 144,000 are first fruits of the second harvest.

Revelation 14 shows you the great tribulation, the 5th seal.

Revelation 14 shows you the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

Revelation 15 and 16 gives you another view with different information of the 7th seal.

 

[WPM]

As for the "last day"? Which last day are you talking about? The last day when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in? Or the last day at the end of the great tribulation? Or last day at the end of the wrath of God?

You have so many ends they do not tie up.

 

[Timtofly]

When the 7th trumpet of the 7th seal.

There are no Trumpets "in the 7th Seal". The 7th Seal is completed and over. The Trumpets are completely separate. There are 7 Thunders separate from the Trumpets, but happen between the 6th and 7th Trumpets.

It is not over at the start of the 7th Trumpet. There are 7 vials before the 7th Trumpet stops sounding.

 

[Timtofly]

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

The 6th seal is the end of the Great tribulation.

IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days, the sun and moon are darkened and the star fall from heaven.

What happens at the 6th seal? The sun and moon is darkened and the stars fall from heaven.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. THIS IS A TIME STAMP. You can determine the great tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. You can determine that Jesus returns and send His angels at the 6th seal.

This is basic logic.

There is not a single tribulation action phrase in the 5th Seal. The 5th Seal is after the tribulation of those days. The tribulation of those days has been going on for 1994 years. That tribulation stops at the 5th Seal.

The 5th Seal is when the church is glorified as symbolized by putting on white robes, the only action of the 5th Seal.

I agree the 6th Seal is the Second Coming of Jesus as King to the Mount of Olives. The 5th Seal involves the rapture. They go hand in hand.

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation 15 and 16 occur in the 7th seal.

Nothing occurs in the 7th Seal. It is a moment, well 30 moments of silence as the world is reeling in the aftermath of the Second Coming.

 

[The Light]

Nothing occurs in the 7th Seal. It is a moment, well 30 moments of silence as the world is reeling in the aftermath of the Second Coming.

Yeah, pay no attention to those trumpets and vials of Gods wrath. They are merely a flashback of a rolling side goggled parallel of a whim, fornicating a redundant prophetic reverse vision, coupled with the uncanny nature of chance, populated with rainbows and butterflies.

I should have just said Revelation 16 BTW.

 

[The Light]

There are no Trumpets "in the 7th Seal". The 7th Seal is completed and over. The Trumpets are completely separate. There are 7 Thunders separate from the Trumpets, but happen between the 6th and 7th Trumpets.

Ok. You can pretend that those 7 trumpets do not occur within the 7th seal if you want. You can also pretend the vials are not in the seventh seal also.

It is not over at the start of the 7th Trumpet. There are 7 vials before the 7th Trumpet stops sounding.

You would be correct if we ignored this.

Revelation 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

And this.
Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[The Light]

There is not a single tribulation action phrase in the 5th Seal.

Revelation 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The 5th Seal is after the tribulation of those days.

How can the tribulation of those days be before the 5th seal when it is over after the 5th seal and Jesus returns at the sixth seal?

The tribulation of those days has been going on for 1994 years.

The seals are not opened yet. The great tribulation is the 5th seal.

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Daniel 12
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

That tribulation stops at the 5th Seal.

No. It starts at the 5th seal.

The 5th Seal is when the church is glorified as symbolized by putting on white robes, the only action of the 5th Seal.

The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened. See Revelation 5

I agree the 6th Seal is the Second Coming of Jesus as King to the Mount of Olives.

The 6th seal is the second coming, but Jesus remains in the clouds seen here
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The 5th Seal involves the rapture.

Jesus comes at the 6th seal. That is when many of the people of Daniel are raised.

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[Timtofly]

No I didn't. John had another vision. The vision of the 7 seals was already complete.

There is no travel back in time. There is a new vision about the same timeframe.


When the 7th trumpet sounds IT'S OVER. There is no 3rd woe to happen. When the 7th trumpet sounds it is the time of judgement. It is the time the millennial kingdom is set up.

Then you get a new vision in Revelation 12 and you get an new vision in Rev 13 and 14. The vision in Revelation 12 takes you way back in time and then into the great tribulation.

The vision in Rev 13 and 14 occurs in the 1st 6 seal.

Understand what you are reading.


Revelation 14 shows you that the 144,000 are first fruits of the second harvest.

Revelation 14 shows you the great tribulation, the 5th seal.

Revelation 14 shows you the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

Revelation 15 and 16 gives you another view with different information of the 7th seal.

First of all, these were not visions. John was actually writing things down as he saw them happening. People do not write stuff down, nor have literal conversations with angels in visions.

Daniel had both dreams, and talked to angels in person. John was literally there in person throughout every event, and saw the beginning and end of the millennium in person, and was even shown the future after this creation. John did not dream he ate a book or scroll. He did eat a book or scroll. How he wrote was in symbolic form describing the events per the group those events pertained to. The Seals deal directly with the church. The Trumpets deal directly with Israel. The Thunders deal with the nations of Gentiles after both the church and Israel are removed. The church was not told what would happen to those left on earth during the Thunders.

Once you read Revelation 8:1, that is it for the Seals. No more going back in time to the Seals. John watched as 6 angels sounded Trumpets. The last 2 Trumpets had a woe attached. Then there was a break in the Trumpets. John starts off chapter 10 telling us he was about to write down 7 Thunders, when he was told not to. The angel then explained things in regards to the 7th Trumpet and third woe, that all happened after the 7 Thunders.

He was specifically telling us after the parenthetical of chapter 11 that the 7th Trumpet and third woe were about to start. Then we have a parenthetical about Satan and we see those angels loosed from the pit in the 5th Trumpet have attacked heaven itself and Satan and those angels were cast out of heaven for the last time during the days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

The 7th Trumpet will be a week long event. Revelation 14 is the end of that week.

Revelation 14 shows that the 144k have been with Jesus on earth from the 7th Seal, during the first 6 Trumpets, and the 7 Thunders. They were the firstfruits of the final harvest. They were sealed before the 7th Seal was opened and were on the earth at the time they were sealed, because the rapture and Second Coming had just happened. They were never a part of the church, because they were not raptured. When they were sealed, is when God redeemed them and they were translated out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh and given a permanent incorruptible physical body. They would serve Jesus and follow Him on the earth during the judgment of the sheep and goats that the first 6 Trumpets cover as a time period. Matthew 13 covers the 7 Thunders. Jesus is sowing the seed that is gathered as wheat, while Satan is sowing the tares to disrupt the process. We know the sheep and wheat are redeemed and changed as well, but are not the church. The goats and tares are humans literally cast alive into the LOF. We are not specifically told what the 144k do, but wherever Jesus goes on the earth, they are right there with Him like the Messiah and those 12 disciples. The 144k would be the camp of the saints surrounding Jerusalem throughout the Day of the Lord. Since they number 1200 from each tribe of Jacob they are probably the heads of families representing all of Israel during this period of time. They are described as virgins at that point. No verse states they remain that way for a thousand years.

That they are mentined both in Revelation 7 and 14 does not mean chapter 14 is back in the Seals. It just means the 144k have gone through the Trumpets and Thunders side by side with Jesus as King in Jerusalem, and they have been faithful the whole time. When the 7th Trumpet stops sounding, the Day of the Lord will begin with a new heavens and earth per Isaiah 65 and 2 Peter 3, but not a new creation per Revelation 21. Paul said that Jesus must reign until all things have been made subject to Christ. Not that it will take a thousand years. That thousand years are about, those redeemed as the final harvest, the sheep and wheat to subdue and fill the earth per Genesis 1:28. Remember that Jesus is obedient in all things, where Adam disobeyed and never filled the Garden of Eden with millions or billions of offspring.

Jesus has been reigning since the Cross filling Paradise. At the Second Coming, He will reign, on earth, while earth is being filled in preparation for the NHNE. Jesus told us there would be a final harvest after the Second Coming. Jesus told us the sheep and goats would be separated after the Second Coming. The Trumpets and Thunders are after the Second Coming. The 7th Trumpet declares Jesus' work at removing all that defiles is accomplished, and Daniel 9:24 will be a promise kept and fulfilled when the 7th Trumpet stops; to declare the 70th week over, and that countdown of time is no more. Jesus in Matthew 13 and 25 tells us things that happen, while John is describing judgments that are happening in conjunction with Matthew 13 and 25. The final harvest is not after Armageddon. The final harvest is finished 42 months prior to Armageddon.

John did a great job of making the Second Coming look like a bunch of symbolic visions. If Amil had the chance, they would symbolize the literal first coming away into mere spiritual symbolism as if nothing physical had ever happened. Why would nothing physical happen at the Second Coming just like the physical appearance of the first coming? Why did John bother to write anything if it was just how to live during the last 1900 years? John was not repeating spiritual symbolism. John was a witness to the literal period called Jacob's trouble, and broke it down into bits that should be understood as actual events. The first 4 Seals are warnings to the church to get their act together, when the time is at hand. Events will literally happen and the church will look back from heaven and say, how did we miss that?

 

[Timtofly]

Yeah, pay no attention to those trumpets and vials of Gods wrath. They are merely a flashback of a rolling side goggled parallel of a whim, fornicating a redundant prophetic reverse vision, coupled with the uncanny nature of chance, populated with rainbows and butterflies.

I should have just said Revelation 16 BTW.

Obviously you have a sick sense of humor. The 7 Thunders will happen prior to anything written in Chapters 11 and on. The vials will be poured out onto Satan's kingdom if it happens. Why do you all so wish that Satan will get 42 months? That means you as a part of the NT church failed, no? If no one is left to redeem, then Satan will not get a chance to just have fun with the wicked.

Those 42 months are not for Satan. Those 42 months are for those who chop their heads off as a testimony to the Lamb. If nobody is left to make that decision, because they were redeemed in the church harvest, those souls will be glorified, not trying to decide if they chop their heads off or not.

Although.... all those post trib people will be wishing they had chopped their heads off, no?

 

[Timtofly]

How can the tribulation of those days be before the 5th seal when it is over after the 5th seal and Jesus returns at the sixth seal?

The only action in the 5th Seal is putting on the robes of white, nothing else. Is being glorified considered tribulation in your thinking?

"And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season."

Is resting actually doing something? Is waiting, literal torture?

Did you not notice that the church is glorified, and told to wait until Jacob's Trouble was over? If the church is in heaven glorified before the trouble starts on the earth, how is that going through the tribulation for the church? How is being glorified and waiting become this time of great tribulation and occurring in heaven to boot?

The tribulation of those days was what the church has endured since 30AD. That tribulation stops when the church is removed from the earth and glorified. Jacob's Trouble is on earth during the first 6 Trumpets, while the church is waiting in heaven. Those in the 5th Seal are told to wait, after being glorified.

They are waiting until the Trumpets and Thunders are over. They are waiting for the rest of the redeemed, the sheep and wheat, harvested during the Trumpets and Thunders. The church is still waiting until the 7th Trumpet stops sounding and the winepress of God's wrath is the last of Adam's offspring to be removed from the earth. Then they wait in Paradise until the Day of the Lord is over. Only after Jesus hands back creation to God, and the NHNE start, will the church come to earth in the New Jerusalem that descends from the New Heaven onto the New Earth.

In the next creation, Paradise becomes the New Jerusalem. In the next creation there is not an earthly Jerusalem. There is obviously a huge empty spot on the earth where the New Jerusalem will land after descending from heaven. I don't see that cities, buildings, and people are destroyed when the New Jerusalem comes to earth. That is not being hyper literal. That is being realistic that John actually saw what was actually happening, and not just a vision, within a vision, within a vision sequence.

You place the entire chapter of Matthew 24, it seems, into one Seal, the 5th Seal, and then you think John keeps referring back to that 5th Seal. The Seals are not some vision revealing future visions. The Seals are unsealing the Lamb's book of life, sealed from before creation itself, and once that Book is unsealed, names will be removed, as people are physically tossed into the LOF. That is why there is silence in heaven after that last Seal is opened. Now the judgment of God happens to living human beings on the earth during the final harvest of the Trumpets and Thunders. Jesus is on the earth with all the angels, because that is what the 6th Seal declares, as well as Jesus in many of His teachings in the Gospels.

Jacob's trouble is not over in a twinkling of an eye. It is just getting started and that is why the church is told to wait, until all of the Trumpets and Thunders are over. People are still being redeemed out of Adam's dead flesh on the earth. Just like the church has been redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh over the last 2 millennia. The 5th Seal is symbolic of the church harvested from the earth. Not symbolic of tribulation. Yes, the church has gone through tribulation on the earth. Many are going through tribulation even today. That is why it is the tribulation of those days, and not Jacob's trouble of the Trumpets and Thunders. Jesus said the church would suffer trouble and persecution, Matthew 24:4-13. That is the great tribulation in these verses:

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple."

These people did not come out of the 5th Seal. These people have entered Paradise on an ongoing basis since the thief on the Cross, serving God day and night in that heavenly Temple. That is not symbolism. That is an ongoing phenomenon for near 2,000 years. The OT redeemed did not come out of tribulation. They came out of Abraham's bosom, the valley of the shadow of death. They have been serving God and enjoying physical Paradise physically since they left their graves at the Cross. This great multitude was not just suddenly appeared at the 6th Seal. These people have been that great cloud of witnesses in that heavenly city and Paradise since the first century. The church is not of the earth. The church consist of ambassadors of that heavenly country, whether they do that job or not. Many church members think they only represent some future single hour resurrection. Jesus was the Resurrection and the Life when He was on the earth as Messiah in the first century. He was not some future single hour resurrection and life at the end of time. The only action in the 5th Seal is the entire church body of all time being glorified in the air in the sight of the entire earth on display for God's glory, and it is over in a twinkling of an eye, but all on earth saw it, because that is how God works, and then boom, the 6th Seal happens, and those on earth know they are in deep deep trouble. And the baptism of fire and the Second Coming all happen at the same time according to Peter and Paul. John just separates events so we can properly wrap our mind around the facts, not make up our own series of events.

 

[Timtofly]

The 6th seal is the second coming, but Jesus remains in the clouds seen here
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

No, Jesus does not remain in the clouds.

Revelation 14 is not about the Seals nor the Second Coming. The church is not removed before the Seals are opened. That contradicts Paul stating the rapture and Second Coming are one single event.

The 5th and 6th Seals are the rapture and Second Coming as Paul's event, mentioned in several places.

Revelation 14 takes place at the end of the week of days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet takes places after the 7 Thunders. The 7 Thunders happen after the first 6 Trumpets. The first Trumpet will not even sound until that half hour of silence is over at the 7th Seal.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus comes at the 6th seal. That is when many of the people of Daniel are raised.

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel sees from the Second Coming until the GWT as one single event. You cannot use Daniel to interpret Revelation. You can only use Revelation to see many aspects and time references left out from Daniel's view that was more vague than what Paul saw. Only John experienced and wrote down the events as they actually may happen.

God did not even let John write down the 7 Thunders, so we still do not have every detail.

The church is not detailed in Daniel 12. Daniel never even understood what we know about the church 2500 years later, which is the two times, and a half a time since Daniel.

No one is raised from the dust at the Second Coming. Those delivered in that verse are those of Israel redeemed who are physically alive at the time of the Second Coming, because their names remain in the Lamb's book of Life. The goats are Daniel's people who are not delivered, but removed from the Lamb's book of Life, and physically cast into the LOF.


Those of Daniel's people who come out of the dust after the Day of the Lord, after current creation is over, and stand as the dead before the GWT, are not the OT redeemed, nor the church, nor those living on the earth for the next thousand years. These people are still in the Lamb's book of life but never resurrected, because they died in their sins before the 7th Seal was opened.

Daniel was told and understood that many at that time would still be redeemed, and not removed from the Lamb's book of Life at that time, but many would be removed, and cast into the LOF. Daniel was not saying that all would come forth at a single point in time. Daniel did not see those made alive and resurrected at the Cross from Abraham's bosom. Daniel did not see those of the church who never would taste death, but would immediately enter Paradise into a physical body for 2,000 years.

Daniel only saw those of Israel as those physically alive at the Second Coming, and many a thousand years later at the GWT Judgment. The NT explains what Daniel saw, not the other way around. Daniel is not talking about the rapture. Daniel points out that at the time of Jacob's trouble many would be redeemed. Those would be the sheep, who prior to physical death would stand in judgment before Jesus, sitting on a throne in Jerusalem. They are gathered by the angels, because that is what Jesus taught in Matthew 25:31-46.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

This is Israel, Daniel's people, gathered out of all nations prior to physical death. The sheep will be delivered, redeemed out of death into life. Once redeemed, they will be protected from the Trumpets and Thunders, and any attempt by Satan to destroy them per Revelation 12. The goats will be physically tossed into the LOF.

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment."

They are no longer in the Lamb's book of Life. There is no need to stand again at the GWT Judgment. That is the end of the road for them, while the rest of the dead in sheol still have to wait a thousand years. Daniel did not see the second coming separated by a thousand year reign of Christ on earth as the Prince to come. Daniel wrote about that which would transpire over the next 3500 years: the time, times, and half a time. 500 years until Christ. Then the Second Coming 2,000 years later. Then the end, a thousand years later at the GWT Judgment.