When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?

[Stewardofthemystery]

So, who are all these billions of mortal wicked who overrun your future millennium after the second coming?

There is going to a “few men left”on earth after it is cleansed by fire that will repopulate the earth during the thousand years.

Isaiah 24:6
Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

Ezekiel 39:2
And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Yes, there are sheep and goats at his coming. Nobody else right?
The sheep inherit the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world...that place where the tree of life was accessible.
The goats are thrown into the lake of fire, and we all should know when this happens...after the millennium.

In both cases the end of the millennium is clearly in view as the book of life is only opened once.
Those people whose names are not in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire...right?

The living sinners go into the lake of fire FIRST, the rest of the dead sinners go into the lake of fire AFTER the thousand years.

 

[jeffweeder]

The living sinners go into the lake of fire FIRST, the rest of the dead sinners go into the lake of fire AFTER the thousand years.

Not so.
Do the living sheep inherit the kingdom before the foundation of the world before the dead in Christ?
Is Apostle Paul Dead?.......

2Tim 4
7 I have fought the good and worthy and noble fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith [firmly guarding the gospel against error]. 8 In the future there is reserved for me the [victor’s] crown of righteousness [for being right with God and doing right], which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that [great] day—and not to me only, but also to all those who have loved and longed for and welcomed His appearing.


16 At my first trial no one supported me [as an advocate] or stood with me, but they all deserted me. May it not be counted against them [by God]. 17 But the Lord stood by me and strengthened and empowered me, so that through me the [gospel] message might be fully proclaimed, and that all the Gentiles might hear it; and I was rescued from the mouth of the lion. 18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil assault, and He will bring me safely into His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

You said to WPM

There is going to a “few men left”on earth after it is cleansed by fire that will repopulate the earth during the thousand years.

How are these few sinners not good enough to be saved to glorification or not ungodly enough to perish with the rest who didnt believe/ receive the Gospel.?
Today is the day to be saved through faith before the Lord comes back a second time.

Paul in 2Thess 2 confirms,


9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them]. 11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Not so.
Do the living sheep inherit the kingdom before the foundation of the world before the dead in Christ?
Is Apostle Paul Dead?.......

2Tim 4
7 I have fought the good and worthy and noble fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith [firmly guarding the gospel against error]. 8 In the future there is reserved for me the [victor’s] crown of righteousness [for being right with God and doing right], which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that [great] day—and not to me only, but also to all those who have loved and longed for and welcomed His appearing.


16 At my first trial no one supported me [as an advocate] or stood with me, but they all deserted me. May it not be counted against them [by God]. 17 But the Lord stood by me and strengthened and empowered me, so that through me the [gospel] message might be fully proclaimed, and that all the Gentiles might hear it; and I was rescued from the mouth of the lion. 18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil assault, and He will bring me safely into His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

You said to WPM

How are these few sinners not good enough to be saved to glorification or not ungodly enough to perish with the rest who didnt believe/ receive the Gospel.?
Today is the day to be saved through faith before the Lord comes back a second time.

Paul in 2Thess 2 confirms,


9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them]. 11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.

I said….”The living “sinners”go into the lake of fire FIRST, the rest of the dead “sinners” go into the lake of fire AFTER the thousand years.”

Saints are not “sinners”

Revelation 20:5
But the rest of the dead (sinners) lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

 

[jeffweeder]

I said….”The living “sinners”go into the lake of fire FIRST, the rest of the dead “sinners” go into the lake of fire AFTER the thousand years.”

Saints are not “sinners”

We were talking the sheep and the goats at his coming right?
You are adding a third group that is not thrown into the fire.

you said

The saints are the sheep and the goats are sinners that are alive on earth at the time of Christs coming.

Why do you have some goats surviving to populate the earth that Jesus said would pass away at his coming?
You do realize that the sheep at that time of his coming inherit the kingdom (before the fall) from the foundation of the world don't you?

So ruling a few mortals visibly to no avail (as they multiply in their millions) after his coming is untenable and a complete waste of time with no room for them to have saving faith anyway.

2thess 2
13 But we should and are [morally] obligated [as debtors] always to give thanks to God for you, believers beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through the sanctifying work of the Spirit [that sets you apart for God’s purpose] and by your faith in the truth [of God’s word that leads you to spiritual maturity]. 14 It was to this end that He called you through our gospel [the good news of Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection], so that you may obtain and share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


I am off to bed :Zzzzz:

 

[honeycomb]

There is going to a “few men left”on earth after it is cleansed by fire that will repopulate the earth during the thousand years.

Repopulate? How so? (Remember, we’re in our spiritual bodies in the millennium).

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yes, it is the Second Coming… When Christ returns to wage war at the sound of the 7th trumpet, it is written that His army will follow Him. His millennial kingdom will be established at this time.

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

- Revelation 19:11-16 (KJV)

So you are saying there is one coming and that is the rapture?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Repopulate? How so? (Remember, we’re in our spiritual bodies in the millennium).

Are you saying earth's entire population is killed at the white horses coming?

 

[honeycomb]

Are you saying earth's entire population is killed at the white horses coming?

No.

 

[honeycomb]

So you are saying there is one coming and that is the rapture?

One second coming at the end of this flesh age (at the 7th trump). Remember that Jesus first came as a babe in Bethlehem.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sure there is….

Revelation 20:4-5​

​

King James Version​

​

​

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”

Confirmed here…..
“21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;(Revelation 13:7)

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given “to the saints“of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.(Revelation 20:4)

The saints are the sheep and the goats are sinners that are alive on earth at the time of Christs coming. Those alive sinners go directly into the fire. The rest of physically dead sinners are not raised up and judged until after the thousand years is complete at the white throne judgment.

Where does it indicate that "the goats are sinners that are alive on earth at the time of Christ's coming"?

Why would they not include "they that have done evil" who are resurrected unto "damnation", as Jesus talked about here:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

How do you interpret the above passage?

Do you believe the sheep/saints inherit the kingdom of God at that point (when Christ comes again)? Surely, "the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" that they inherit at that time is the kingdom of God, right?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You “Amils” have the book of Revelation spun around backwards. You have the last events happening first. The body of the beast and the false prophet go into the lake of fire at the second coming of Christ, not the first.

You apparently have no understanding of Amillennialism. We do not have the beast and false prophet going into the lake of fire at the first coming, but rather at the second coming.

What you are missing is that the book of Revelation has a series of parallels or recapitulations that start with the first coming of Christ and go up to the second coming of Christ. It is not chronological from beginning to end. Look at the description of the sixth seal. The day of Christ's return is already described as being at hand at that time as it says "the great day of His wrath has come" at that point (Rev 6:17).

It indicates that "the time of the dead, that they should be judged" has come as of the seventh trumpet and Revelation 20:11-15 indicates that the dead are judged AFTER the thousand years (and Satan's little season).

Revelation 20 starts another recapitulation which goes back to the time when Jesus began reigning, which scripture teaches occurred at the time of His resurrection (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:19-23).

You Premils do not accept that Jesus has been reigning over all and over His kingdom since His resurrection as scripture explicitly teaches (Matthew 28:18, Eph 1:19-23, Col 1:12-13, Rev 1:5-6).

You Premils do not accept that Satan was bound by Jesus's death and resurrection and the preaching of the gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit (Matt 12:28-29, John 12:31, Luke 10:17, Heb 2:14-15, 1 John 3:8, Acts 26:18) which has led to the salvation of "a great multitude" (Rev 7:9) in NT times after a vast majority of the world had "no hope" and were "without God in the world" in OT times (Eph 2:11-13).

You Premils do not accept what is taught in passages like John 5:28-29 which indicates that ALL of the dead will be resurrected at generally the same time/hour.

You Premils do not accept what is taught in passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46 which is that all people will be judged at the same time.

You Premils do not accept that no mortal flesh and blood will inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 15:50). Premil has many mortal flesh and blood people inheriting the kingdom of God (Matthew 25:34).

You Premils (post-tribs, at least) do not accept that all unbelievers on earth will be killed when Jesus returns (Matthew 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-37, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 19:17-18).

You Premils do not accept that scripture says we are looking for "a city whose builder and maker is good", a "heavenly country", not an earthly kingdom. You do not accept that we should be looking for "new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness" in accordance with Christ's second coming (2 Peter 3:13), not a temporal earthly kingdom.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I connected the dots on the timing….

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
(Revelation 19:20)
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
(Revelation 20:5)
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven,and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

You make the mistake of reading everything in Daniel and Revelation chronologically when not everything in those books is in chronological order. That's not how Apocalyptic writing works.

Where is the Ancient of days located when the Son of man comes to Him and is brought before Him? On earth? Or in heaven?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is going to a “few men left”on earth after it is cleansed by fire that will repopulate the earth during the thousand years.

Isaiah 24:6
Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

Ezekiel 39:2
And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

Impossible! There is no way in the world that any mortals could survive this:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

This very clearly indicates that the entire earth will be burned up when Jesus returns. Many are called, but few are chosen (Matt 22:14). The relative few who survive are those who are saved/chosen and belong to Christ. They are those who "are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord".

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

You need to allow the NT to shine light on the OT prophecies for you. The "few men left", according to Paul, will be "we which are alive and remain". What will happen to them? They will be changed and have immortal bodies at that point. Unbelievers will experience "sudden destruction" by fire from which "they shall not escape". None of them will escape! Only those who are found worthy, which are those who are saved, will escape (Luke 21:33-36).

Tell me this. If any mortal unbelievers were to survive Christ's return, then what would it be about them that would allow them to survive with the rest being killed?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Repopulate? How so? (Remember, we’re in our spiritual bodies in the millennium).

Do you understand that spiritual bodies are immortal? Where do those who number "as the sand of the sea" come from in Revelation 20:7-9 who end up being destroyed by fire that comes down from heaven? You are correct that no one with a mortal body survives Christ's return, but you're missing that this means that Revelation 20:7-9 occurs just before His return with the fire coming down on His enemies when He returns, just as passages like 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 indicate.

 

[WPM]

There is going to a “few men left”on earth after it is cleansed by fire that will repopulate the earth during the thousand years.

Isaiah 24:6
Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

Ezekiel 39:2
And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

Isaiah 24:1-7 tells us: “Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him. The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word. The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left. The new wine mourneth, the vine languisheth, all the merry hearted do sigh.”

This passage is identifying the awful consequences of the fall and its effect upon creation. Creation and the creature are inextricably tied together on this matter. As such, we should expect the earth to gradually deteriorate in tandem with the degeneration of man. After all, Scripture makes clear that men are going to progressively get worst, not better. We see that reflected in the decaying of the earth like a worn-out overcoat that will soon need replacement.

Premils insist that the “few men” left are unbelievers. But this is definitely not what the text is insinuating. Quite the opposite. It is wicked that are punished and the righteous that are rescued, changed and equipped to populate the new perfect environment.

It would seem sensible to understand the phrase "few men left" here as referring to the elect that are rescued from this destruction. Dr. teachers that there are many are on the broad road; the few are on the narrow road. When the inhabitants of this world are judged, and when the regenerated earth is repopulated, there will indeed be “few men left” (Isaiah 24:6).

Jesus said in Matthew 7:13-14, “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

Christians today have made the narrow road the broad road and the broad road the narrow road. They preach their messages in such a compromised manner that you would believe: “crooked is the gate, and broad is the way, which leadeth unto life, and many there be that find it.” There are two different peoples in this life, walking two different roads, in two different directions, to two different destinations. The Christian is bound for heaven; the sinner is bound for hell.

In Luke 13:23-28, we see Christ responding to an important question from the disciples, who asked, “Lord, are there few that be saved?”

Whereupon the Lord replies, “Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

The saddest reality in this Book is that the majority of people go to hell, the minority inherit the new earth.

 

[WPM]

The living sinners go into the lake of fire FIRST, the rest of the dead sinners go into the lake of fire AFTER the thousand years.

Who is this third group that you invent that are too wicked to be caught up to meet Jesus but too righteous to be destroyed?

 

[WPM]

No.

Can you quote one single explicit second coming text that describes mortal or wicked surviving Christ's glorious return?

 

[honeycomb]

Do you understand that spiritual bodies are immortal?

1 Cor. 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

There are two distinct events that occur when Jesus Christ returns at the final trump.

The first, which applies to everyone, both good and wicked, is that we are all "raised up" or "changed" from flesh bodies to spiritual bodies—from corruptible flesh to incorruptible spirit. AND the second thing that happens is known as the First Resurrection to eternal life. That is where the saints who are now in their spiritual bodies are "raised" or "resurrected" to the level of immortality!

If people took the time to comprehend the distinction between the resurrection of the body and the resurrection of the soul to immortality, much confusion and "mystery" in the minds of Christians would be cleared up and answered!


PEtRA

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There are two distinct events that occur when Jesus Christ returns at the final trump.
The first, which applies to everyone, both good and wicked, is that we are all "raised up" or "changed" from flesh bodies to spiritual bodies—from corruptible flesh to incorruptible spirit.

Where does Paul indicate that it applies to everyone? Notice that the context is in relation to inheriting the kingdom of God (1 Cor 15:50) and that no mortal flesh and blood can inherit it. So, the context is only in relation to believers there since unbelievers will obviously not inherit the kingdom of God.

AND the second thing that happens is known as the First Resurrection to eternal life. That is where the saints who are now in their spiritual bodies are "raised" or "resurrected" to the level of immortality!

Spiritual bodies are immortal bodies. This is nonsense. You are making things up. You have a belief all to yourself. Does God just reveal things only to you? Certainly not. Get down off the pedestal you have put yourself on. There is no basis whatsoever for claiming that spiritual bodies are not immortal bodies.

If people took the time to comprehend the distinction between the resurrection of the body and the resurrection of the soul to immortality, much confusion and "mystery" in the minds of Christians would be cleared up and answered!

What are you even talking about? There is no mystery to what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. He revealed a mystery there. You are turning it into a mystery with your incomprehensible interpretation of it.