When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Several things, one of which is "the time of the dead, that they should be judged" (Rev 11:18).
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
The time of the dead being judged is after the thousand years and Satan's little season have ended, as we see here:
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Where is it taught there?
Spiritual bodies are immortal and incorruptible, so how do you explain a number "as the sand of the sea" being physically destroyed on the earth by fire from heaven after the thousand years is over, as depicted in Revelation 20:7-9? Where do those mortals come from?
LOL. No i am not. You are clearly avoiding this. I wonder why? Quote one second coming text that describes mortal or wicked surviving Christ's glorious return?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Why would you relate that passage to Revelation 20:4 instead of Revelation 20:12? When will the books be opened for judgment? Here...
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Because of the timing of when the “thrones are cast down”=kingdoms of this world are cast down
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.(Revelation 20:4)
Exactly! That links the end of Revelation 20 with the coming of the Lord.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.(Revelation 20:4)
You totally skipped around the verses we were talking about.
Here is the order of events….
After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.(Revelation 20:4)
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
(Revelation 19:20)
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
(Revelation 20:5)
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven,and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.(Revelation 11:15)
15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.(Revelation 20:4)
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;(Revelation 13:7)
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.(Revelation 20:4)
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, (Revelation 13:7)and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.(Revelation 12:14)
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.(Revelation 11:15)
28 Hitherto is the end of the matter
Daniel 12
King James Version
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.(Revelation 20:4)2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; (Revelation 12:14) and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.(Revelation 10:7)
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
But, there's no actual judgment that takes place in Revelation 20:4 as is the case in Revelation 20:12. Will the books be opened for judgment more than once? I don't believe so. Why would that be the case?
Can you tell me how you interpret this passage:
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 5 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 8 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
This will happen at Christ's second coming. Agree? Who do you believe the sheep/righteous represent? Who do you believe the goats/cursed represent? Would you agree that the "kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" that the sheep/righteous will inherit "life "eternal" in is the kingdom of God? Would you agree that the "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" that the goats/cursed will be cast into is the lake of fire (Rev 20:10,15)?
Daniel 7:13-14 says, “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”
When some people read this reference to the Son of man coming with clouds they immediately assume that it relates to the second coming of the Lord. However, if they would carefully examine the wording of the passage and particularly the import of the reading, they would find that it makes absolutely no mention to Christ coming to earth in the clouds, but rather, it is speaking of Christ rising into the presence of His Father – the Ancient of Days – to receive His reward. The narrative expressly says, “the Son of man … came to the Ancient of days.” This glorious event occurred after the cross when He triumphantly entered into the portals of heaven in a cloud to sit at the right hand of majesty on high.
Premillennialists commonly apply this reading to the second coming, however, a close study of this reading shows that it relates specifically to the Lord’s ascension. The question that emanates from here is: where, in this vision, does the son of man (Christ) go? Is it to the earth or is it to His Father? Of course the passage answers this for us; “the Son of man … came to the Ancient of days.” The Son of Man is shown here not to be coming from the Ancient of Days, but rather going to Him in the clouds. Christ is coming to the Father. For what purpose? Christ ascended in the clouds to the Father to receive His coronation. He came to be given dominion, glory and a kingdom. Christ is therefore not coming from heaven to earth in this passage, but coming from earth to heaven.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Notice the reference in Daniel 12:2 to the resurrection of "some to shame and everlasting contempt" which occurs at the same time as those who are resurrected to "everlasting life", just as Jesus taught in John 5:28-29. Why do you have the resurrection of dead unbelievers and their judgment occurring 1,000+ years after believers are resurrected when this passage (as well as John 5:28-29 and Acts 24:15) has them being resurrected at the same time?
When does this occur? At the end of the age.
Matthew 13:40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.
Don't you believe that Jesus will return at the end of the age (Matt 24:3)? That is when "they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever", according to Jesus Himself.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Agree. There is no question whatsoever that Daniel 7:13-14 refers to the ascension of Christ. It very clearly has Him coming to God the Father in heaven there rather than coming from heaven towards earth.
Look at the obvious similarities between these passages, which I will color code to make them even more obvious:
Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
This is explicit scripture. Very clear and straightforward. There is no question whatsoever that Ephesians 1:19-22 is about His ascension. No one here would argue. Then, there shouldn't be any question that Daniel 7:13-14 is about His ascension as well. The time when Jesus was given "dominion, and glory, and a kingdom" over "all people, nations and languages" was when He ascended to heaven at the right hand of God the Father, according to Paul. So, Daniel 7:13-14 is a clear description of what happened at His ascension and matches up perfectly with Ephesians 1:19-22, which clearly describes His ascension and says He was placed "Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named" at that time.
Sure there is….
Revelation 20:4-5
King James Version
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”
Confirmed here…..
“21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;(Revelation 13:7)
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given “to the saints“of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.(Revelation 20:4)
The saints are the sheep and the goats are sinners that are alive on earth at the time of Christs coming. Those alive sinners go directly into the fire. The rest of physically dead sinners are not raised up and judged until after the thousand years is complete at the white throne judgment.
I connected the dots on the timing….
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
(Revelation 19:20)
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
(Revelation 20:5)
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven,and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
This is the destruction of the Roman Empire. By the way that happened a long time ago. It is gone. In case you are skeptical, call someone in Rome and they will confirm it!
So, who are all these billions of mortal wicked who overrun your future millennium after the second coming?
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
Yes, there are sheep and goats at his coming. Nobody else right?
The sheep inherit the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world...that place where the tree of life was accessible.
The goats are thrown into the lake of fire, and we all should know when this happens...after the millennium.
In both cases the end of the millennium is clearly in view as the book of life is only opened once.
Those people whose names are not in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire...right?
You “Amils” have the book of Revelation spun around backwards. You have the last events happening first. The body of the beast and the false prophet go into the lake of fire at the second coming of Christ, not the first.
Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone
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