When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?

[Spiritual Israelite]

ANYBODY resurrected to life again in scripture necessarily was given an incorruptible and immortal body form. That is how the resurrectoin process works, according to 1 Cor. 15:51-54.

Nonsense! How many times do you think the last trumpet will sound? Did it sound when Lazarus was resurrected? No. You are taking 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 completely out of context. That passage has the dead in Christ all being resurrected at THE SAME TIME which will be at the sounding of the last trumpet. You're turning something very simple into something very convoluted.

And you have misquoted 1 Cor. 15:20-23. It does NOT say that Jesus was the first to be resurrected unto bodily immortality. It says He was "the First-fruits". That is a plural term referring to a harvest of multiple individuals from the dust of the grave.

No, it says Christ Himself is the firstfruits. It would've been better translated as firstfruit, but the point is it's talking about Jesus Himself and you're trying to change that, which is shameful.

It doesn't refer to a single stalk of grain. There were 144,000 other First-fruits raised the same day as Christ in Matt. 27:52-53. These received the very same type of glorified, resurrected body as the risen Lord.

It says Jesus is the firstfruits of them that slept, not that them that slept are the firstfruits. You are trying to blatantly change scripture to fit your doctrine.

 

[tailgator]

I said there are archeological proofs that Christ returned to the Mount of Olives back in AD 70 and resurrected His saints, returning to heaven with them. We also have almost every single writer in the NT testifying that this second coming return was at hand for that generation, as well as a resurrection of the dead, both the just and the unjust. Christ had predicted He would return while there were still some alive that He had spoken to in Matt. 16:27-28. His disciples believed Him, and taught the same. This is not something that I have made up.

There is no proof Christ came and opened the graves of Israel on 70 AD.No one witnessed any resurection in 70 AD.

Christ is not reigning over resurected Israel in the land of resurected Israel.This has not been fulfilled in any way shape or form.



Ezekiel 37
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

 

[3 Resurrections]

There is no proof Christ came and opened the graves of Israel on 70 AD.No one witnessed any resurection in 70 AD.

Nobody was an eye-witness of Christ rising from the dead, yet we know beyond a doubt that He accomplished this. The resurrected bodies of saints are changed into the incorruptible and immortal "in the twinkling of an eye". Just how long do you think it takes for a resurrected person to ascend to heaven in a glorified body? It's not as if it has to be a slow-motion video, and it isn't even necessary for the grave location itself to be disturbed when the believer rises from it, since the resurrected Christ emerged from the tomb without the guards even noticing that He was leaving it, and without even moving the stone sealing the entrance.

But there most definitely are empty ossuaries that have been found in completely intact locations being excavated for the first time in Jerusalem. Likewise, the double cave is empty at Machpelah where Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebekah, Jacob and Leah were all buried. This wasn't just a resurrection from graves around Jerusalem at that time. Christ had all the resurrected saints gathered from all points of the compass together to meet Him in the air and return to heaven with them.

Daniel 12:11-13 gave us the specific day that this resurrection would occur, with the sign of two specific events that would start the 1,335-day countdown to when He returned. That 1,335-day countdown ended on Pentecost day in AD 70, at which point a bodily resurrection at Christ's second coming took place.

Christ is not reigning over resurected Israel in the land of resurected Israel.This has not been fulfilled in any way shape or form.

You have a mistaken idea of what Christ's "reign" is like. Christ is a Great High Priest upon His throne in heaven. He shepherds the nations with a rod of iron, showing that His High Priesthood after the order of Melchizedek will never be broken. The Apostles were teaching the people that Christ had already been enthroned by mentioning this on the day of Pentecost in AD 33 (Acts 2:30-36).

 

[tailgator]

Nobody was an eye-witness of Christ rising from the dead, yet we know beyond a doubt that He accomplished this. The resurrected bodies of saints are changed into the incorruptible and immortal "in the twinkling of an eye". Just how long do you think it takes for a resurrected person to ascend to heaven in a glorified body? It's not as if it has to be a slow-motion video, and it isn't even necessary for the grave location itself to be disturbed when the believer rises from it, since the resurrected Christ emerged from the tomb without the guards even noticing that He was leaving it, and without even moving the stone sealing the entrance.

But there most definitely are empty ossuaries that have been found in completely intact locations being excavated for the first time in Jerusalem. Likewise, the double cave is empty at Machpelah where Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebekah, Jacob and Leah were all buried. This wasn't just a resurrection from graves around Jerusalem at that time. Christ had all the resurrected saints gathered from all points of the compass together to meet Him in the air and return to heaven with them.

Daniel 12:11-13 gave us the specific day that this resurrection would occur, with the sign of two specific events that would start the 1,335-day countdown to when He returned. That 1,335-day countdown ended on Pentecost day in AD 70, at which point a bodily resurrection at Christ's second coming took place.

You have a mistaken idea of what Christ's "reign" is like. Christ is a Great High Priest upon His throne in heaven. He shepherds the nations with a rod of iron, showing that His High Priesthood after the order of Melchizedek will never be broken. The Apostles were teaching the people that Christ had already been enthroned by mentioning this on the day of Pentecost in AD 33 (Acts 2:30-36).

Now that's a lie.There were eye witnesses that Jesus rose from.the dead and we have their testimony that Jesus did in fact raise from.the dead.They talked to him and touched him after he was resurected.He even told Thomas to stick his hand in his side.

Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


And you say no one witnessed that he has in fact risen from.the dead?

Now you say there was a resurection in 70 ad which no man saw .No one even saw the open graves of anyone.You deny the apostles testimony of the risen Lord and you make up stories about a resurection that never took place.

 

[3 Resurrections]

No, it says Christ Himself is the firstfruits. It would've been better translated as firstfruit, but the point is it's talking about Jesus Himself and you're trying to change that, which is shameful.

You are trying yourself to change this term from "First-fruits" to "First-fruit", which should not be done. And I am not trying to change this term. Christ WAS the "First-fruits". The group of 144,000 Jewish resurrected saints were ALSO called "First-fruits unto God and the Lamb" in Rev. 14:4. This title belonged to both Christ and the 144,000 raised that same day by the just-risen Lamb.

It says Jesus is the firstfruits of them that slept, not that them that slept are the firstfruits. You are trying to blatantly change scripture to fit your doctrine.

No, I'm not trying to change scripture. I am bringing up the 144,000 resurrected Jewish First-fruits in Revelation 14 as scripture's past example of the kind of glorified, immortal resurrected body that we likewise can expect in the final resurrection and the final judgment.

Now that's a lie.There were eye witnesses that Jesus rose from.the dead and we have their testimony that Jesus did in fact raise from.the dead.They talked to him and touched him after he was resurected.He even told Thomas to stick his hand in his side.

And you say no one witnessed that he has in fact risen from.the dead?

No, tailgator, read me more carefully. I wrote that no one saw Him LEAVING the intact tomb. Of course, multitudes of believers saw the risen Lord Jesus later that day. We have the record of the eye-witnesses listed by Paul and also in the gospels.

Now you say there was a resurection in 70 ad which no man saw .No one even saw the open graves of anyone.

We are told that the body of the risen Christ could disappear from view (Luke 24:31). This is a feature of the glorified, immortal condition of a resurrected person. It is not necessary for a grave to be broken open for the body of an immortal, glorified person to emerge from that grave. Christ didn't need this...it wasn't needed in AD 70, and we won't need this either in our future. The only reason why the graves of the Matt. 27:52-53 saints were broken open by the earthquake at Christ's crucifixion was to display to those watching the crucifixion that this had to have been the Son of God being put to death.

 

[Truth7t7]

Amil dilemma.
You just stumbled upon it

In the rapture ONLY the dead in christ are raised.

No place in the holy Bible is a "Pre-Trib" rapture mentioned

 

[Truth7t7]

Sounds Democratic. Accuse others of what you are doing.


Ah...........nope. Just something you are making up because Daniel 12 is one of the MANY things that blows your doctrine out of the water.

This is a specific group..........the people of Daniel.........and this event occurs at a specific time...........the end of the great tribulation. The great tribulation is over before the 6th seal is opened, which again is another of the MANY things that blows your doctrine out of the water.

So, you want to claim a "general resurrection" without any scriptural support. I guess I'll claim a "specific resurrection" because I have scriptural support.


You already have a problem you cannot solve because Daniel 12:1-2 occurs with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, immediately after the tribulation of those days and John 5 occurs after the 7th trumpet is blown.

Problems, you don't even understand let alone can address.

Jesus returns at the 7th Trump, Daniel 12:1-2 & John 5:28-29 represents this event

You will "Closely Note" that the book of life is opened in Daniel 12:1 in the "Final Judgement" The End

Your claim this represents the 6th seal is 100% "FALSE"

Daniel 12:1-2KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Same Book of life is opened as seen in Daniel 12:1 & Revelation 20:12 (The End)

Revelation 20:12KJV
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No place in the holy Bible is a "Pre-Trib" rapture mentioned

No place in the holy Bible is a "Pre-Trib" rapture mentioned

Mat 24.
" before the flood"
Noah gathered
One taken/left
Peacetime, commerce, normal life
Watch and be ready before the flood.

Lot gathered before the judgement.

All rapture verses are peacetime, commerce, normal life.
Your deal has the opposite setting and actually denies Jesus's words of the 2 gatherings of mat 24.

So I just debunked your theory and error.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Indeed! spot on! Immortality = eternal life!

No one who has died and gone to heaven has gone through the First Resurrection yet. This will happen when Jesus returns at the last (7th) trumpet.

There are 2 gatherings in mat 24.
3 gatherings in Rev 14, during the trib.
All before the 2nd coming on horses.( except your lone PARTIAL gathering of mat 24 'after the tribulation.')

Pretrb rapture fits.
Nothing else does.

 

[rebuilder 454]

This is a good point. I was trying to keep it simple, but stepped in the chili.

Part of the problem is that they do not understand harvest.
Nor do they understand paradise, or why those patriarchs were held adjacent to hell.

Add that up, and we have the bizarre misunderstanding of dead in Christ raised, and misunderstanding of firstfruits (Jesus, and the patriarchs).
They are unreachable, embarrassed ( which is why they personally attack you) and frustrated.
They are not happy people.

 

[rwb]

Of course Jerusalem was declared "desolate" by Christ during His earthly ministry. Simply because Matthew referred to Jerusalem as the "holy city" AFTER Christ had declared it desolate - this is a figure of speech called an "anachronism". Don't get hung up on a figure of speech. I'm sure you have used terms like this yourself on occasion, where something is referred to by a title which no longer applies, simply to confirm what location, person, or thing is being spoken about.

You seem to miss the point! The reason I point out that Jerusalem on earth after the first advent of Christ is no longer considered the holy city of God is that you might KNOW the holy city in view is that which is spiritually found in heaven. It was the SPIRITUAL BODY, not the physical bodies, of those saints of old that ascended to the holy city NEW JERUSALEM in heaven with the spirit of the Lord.

No, there was nobody who bodily ascended to heaven along with Christ that morning, nor at His later ascension in Acts 1 either.

Which is why when faithful saints, both those of Old and those from the cross ascend to heaven a (((SPIRITUAL))) body, not a (((PHYSICAL))) body, because flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Wrong deductions. Nobody every dies twice. Once ONLY,

Then why are those who had been resurrected bodily from death no longer alive? When faithful saints are physically resurrected from the graves in the hour coming when the last trumpet sounds, THEY SHALL NEVER DIE! In this age of grace, it is only the spirit within faithful saints that possesses EVERLASTING LIFE that shall never end. EVERY single human body of flesh and blood on this earth is mortal & corruptible and therefore destined to DIE! Those dying in unbelief will suffer the second death (LOF), but for all who die in faith, their spirit returns to God ALIVE because in life they have part in Christ's resurrection! He is the resurrection and the life!!!

 

[rwb]

Indeed! spot on! Immortality = eternal life!

No one who has died and gone to heaven has gone through the First Resurrection yet. This will happen when Jesus returns at the last (7th) trumpet.

If we have no part in the resurrection life of Christ (who is the FIRST RESURRECTION) before we physically die, and we know that physical flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of God, how are the saints alive in heaven after physical death? It's true those who physically die in Christ, do go to heaven ALIVE after death. What body do they ascend to heaven in, since their flesh returns to dust?

Paul says when our body (natural/physical) dies, it is raised a spiritual body, because mankind has both a natural body of flesh & bone, and a spiritual body within. That within mankind that is spirit will either return to God eternally alive through the Spirit of Christ within. or it will return to God in what Scripture tells us is darkness and silence, without life.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The first resurrection that man MUST have part in before physical death comes through the Spirit of Christ in us when we are born again. That's what Paul means when he writes that mankind apart from Christ is "dead in trespasses and sins." For that reason, Christ says, "Ye must be born again!" Once we are born again through Christ's Spirit in us, that spiritual part within man has everlasting/eternal life. Even though our physical body is destined to die, our spirit through the Holy Spirit within shall NEVER die. That's why as a spiritual body man of faith ascends to heaven after our body breathes its last.

Then in the hour coming when the last trumpet sounds, the spiritual body in heaven shall return with the Lord to give our resurrected body immortal & incorruptible life that is once again a whole person God created mankind to be.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Then why are those who had been resurrected bodily from death no longer alive? When faithful saints are physically resurrected from the graves in the hour coming when the last trumpet sounds, THEY SHALL NEVER DIE! In this age of grace, it is only the spirit within faithful saints that possesses EVERLASTING LIFE that shall never end. EVERY single human body of flesh and blood on this earth is mortal & corruptible and therefore destined to DIE! Those dying in unbelief will suffer the second death (LOF), but for all who die in faith, their spirit returns to God ALIVE because in life they have part in Christ's resurrection! He is the resurrection and the life!!!

But those individuals resurrected bodily from death back in OT times and NT times during Christ's ministry ARE presently alive in those glorified bodies in heaven. They were taken there in the "rapture" to heaven with the returning Christ back in AD 70. They were the "alive" and "remaining" ones that Paul spoke about in 1 Thess. 4 who had remained on the earth until then in those glorified, living bodies that had been made immortal.

Everything that I underlined in your comment above I heartily agree with.

The reason I point out that Jerusalem on earth after the first advent of Christ is no longer considered the holy city of God is that you might KNOW the holy city in view is that which is spiritually found in heaven. It was the SPIRITUAL BODY, not the physical bodies, of those saints of old that ascended to the holy city NEW JERUSALEM in heaven with the spirit of the Lord.

Those bodily-resurrected individuals in Matt. 27:52-53 could not possibly have ascended to heaven's holy city New Jerusalem. Nor any other bodily-resurrected saints. We are told in Rev. 15:8 exactly when that heavenly temple allowed access to glorified, resurrected mankind, and it was after the 7 plagues in Revelation had been finished.

"And no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulflled."

Those 7 plagues were not finished before Christ's resurrection day ascension when those Matt. 27:52-53 saints rose from those broken-open graves around Jerusalem. So they could not have ascended to heaven either on that day, or 40 days later in Acts 1.

Which is why when faithful saints, both those of Old and those from the cross ascend to heaven a (((SPIRITUAL))) body, not a (((PHYSICAL))) body, because flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

The SPIRITS of the dead return to God who gave it at physical death. That says nothing about having a "spiritual BODY" yet. Of course, ordinary flesh and blood cannot stand before God in heaven, or inherit the kingdom of God. Those mortal remains in the grave must be altered into a "changed" condition that is incorruptible and immortal. Thankfully, for the Holy's Spirit, this is an act taking a mere micro-second of time to change those mortal remains of a saint into something that can be presented faultless, face-to-face, before the presence of the Father's glory in heaven with exceeding joy (Jude 24).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are trying yourself to change this term from "First-fruits" to "First-fruit", which should not be done.

I'm not changing anything. The Greek word can mean "firstfruits" or "firstfruit". The Bible wasn't written in English. But, the point is that it very specifically refers to Jesus Himself as being the firstfruit or firstfruits of them that slept and it does not say that them that slept are the firstfruits. You are trying to change that, which is shameful.

And I am not trying to change this term. Christ WAS the "First-fruits".

Yes, Christ alone is the firstfruits of them that slept. Paul said next in order to be resurrected are those who are His at His second coming (1 Cor 15:23). To include any others in the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality requires you to add to what Paul said as if Paul didn't know what he was talking about.

The group of 144,000 Jewish resurrected saints were ALSO called "First-fruits unto God and the Lamb" in Rev. 14:4. This title belonged to both Christ and the 144,000 raised that same day by the just-risen Lamb.

Where does it say they were resurrected? Nowhere! You are blatantly trying to make scripture say what you want it to say. James referred to believers of the twelve tribes of Israel as being firstfruits.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Did the believers in the twelve tribes need to be resurrected in order to be called "firstfruits"? No. The 144,000 are not resurrected. They are souls of the dead in Christ in heaven. Nowhere does it say they have already been resurrected from the dead.

No, I'm not trying to change scripture.

You absolutely are and it's very obvious. Scripture says Jesus Christ Himself is the firstfruits when it comes to the resurrection of the dead. You are trying to include the 144,000 in the firstfruits of the resurrection of the dead when Paul made it clear that Jesus Himself is the firstfruits of the resurrection of the dead. You absolutely ARE trying to change scripture.

I am bringing up the 144,000 resurrected Jewish First-fruits in Revelation 14 as scripture's past example of the kind of glorified, immortal resurrected body that we likewise can expect in the final resurrection and the final judgment.

Show me where it says they were resurrected. Good luck.

 

[3 Resurrections]

You absolutely are and it's very obvious. Scripture says Jesus Christ Himself is the firstfruits when it comes to the resurrection of the dead. You are trying to include the 144,000 in the firstfruits of the resurrection of the dead when Paul made it clear that Jesus Himself is the firstfruits of the resurrection of the dead. You absolutely ARE trying to change scripture.

I'm not changing anything. You yourself are trying to erase the facts concerning the resurrected 144,000 First-fruits. Paul spoke about the church still having the "First-fruits" of the Spirit's work of redemption of the bodies of men in Romans 8:23. These were patiently waiting with all the rest of the believers for Christ's second coming return.

And yes, those 144,000 Jewish First-fruits from those tribes listed in Rev. 7 WERE bodily-resurrected saints. I'm sure you remember their description in Revelation 14.

The 144,000 Jewish saints were "virgins" (Rev. 14:4), because there is no marriage nor giving in marriage in the bodily-resurrected condition (Luke 20:35-36).

These 144,000 were "redeemed from the earth" in Rev. 14:3, which meant they had been bodily-resurrected out of it by the "redemption of their bodies".

There was "no guile found in their mouth", and they were "without fault", which can only describe the bodily-resurrected condition of perfected righteousness. (Rev. 14:5).

The 144,000 First-fruits stood together with the risen Lamb on Mount Zion (Rev. 14:1), just as the Matt. 27:52-53 saints went into the city of Jerusalem on that day and were seen of many. We are told that the risen Christ also was in Jerusalem on that day of His bodily resurrection, showing Himself to the disciples.

All of those 144,000 Jewish resurrected individuals were "sealed" in Rev. 7:2-3, as an indication that they would be preserved from any harm that was coming for those in Israel during that tormenting 5-month period in AD 66 (Rev. 9:4-5). As bodily-resurrected individuals, that seal of protection for the 144,000 First-fruits meant that they could not be harmed by any means whatever, whether that harm be sword, disease, starvation, beasts of the earth, or even any spiritual oppression by devils or Satan himself.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Did the believers in the twelve tribes need to be resurrected in order to be called "firstfruits"?

Did you miss James's statement that these were "a KIND of First-fruits"? That meant these twelve tribes with their believing members scattered abroad resembled the First-fruits in some way, but that doesn't make them the 144,000 Jewish First-fruits themselves.

Read the fine print.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm not changing anything.

I can do this all day. Yes, you are. Again, Paul said Jesus Himself is the firstfruits and you are not accepting that and trying to say that the 144,000 are the firstfruits, thereby contradicting Paul. I'm sensing that you have a low opinion of Paul and don't think he knew what he was talking about when he said that Christ Himself is the firstfruits in 1 Corinthians 15:20.

You yourself are trying to erase the facts concerning the resurrected 144,000 First-fruits.

I asked you to show me where it says they were resurrected. So, when do you plan on doing that?

And yes, those 144,000 Jewish First-fruits from those tribes listed in Rev. 7 WERE bodily-resurrected saints. I'm sure you remember their description in Revelation 14.

The 144,000 Jewish saints were "virgins" (Rev. 14:4), because there is no marriage nor giving in marriage in the bodily-resurrected condition (Luke 20:35-36).

These 144,000 were "redeemed from the earth" in Rev. 14:3, which meant they had been bodily-resurrected out of it by the "redemption of their bodies".

It does not say they were redeemed bodily from the earth. You are making all kinds of assumptions here. Your doctrine is based on assumptions and not on scripture. The souls of the dead in Christ who are in heaven have been redeemed from the earth spiritually. They are now resting from the suffering they experienced while still alive on the earth.

Revelation 14:12 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

There was "no guile found in their mouth", and they were "without fault", which can only describe the bodily-resurrected condition of perfected righteousness. (Rev. 14:5).

Nonsense. Do you believe in soul sleep or something? The same thing can be said of the souls of the dead in Christ who are in heaven now.

The 144,000 First-fruits stood together with the risen Lamb on Mount Zion (Rev. 14:1), just as the Matt. 27:52-53 saints went into the city of Jerusalem on that day and were seen of many. We are told that the risen Christ also was in Jerusalem on that day of His bodily resurrection, showing Himself to the disciples.

All of those 144,000 Jewish resurrected individuals were "sealed" in Rev. 7:2-3, as an indication that they would be preserved from any harm that was coming for those in Israel during that tormenting 5-month period in AD 66 (Rev. 9:4-5). As bodily-resurrected individuals, that seal of protection for the 144,000 First-fruits meant that they could not be harmed by any means whatever, whether that harm be sword, disease, starvation, beasts of the earth, or even any spiritual oppression by devils or Satan himself.

Nothing you are saying here is an indication that they were bodily resurrected. You have nothing to support that idea. And it contradicts 1 Corinthians 15:20-23, which you don't even care about.

Did you miss James's statement that these were "a KIND of First-fruits"? That meant these twelve tribes with their believing members scattered abroad resembled the First-fruits in some way, but that doesn't make them the 144,000 Jewish First-fruits themselves.

Read the fine print.

No, I didn't miss it. It seems that YOU missed it. Yes, they are a different kind of firstfruits than Jesus. Jesus is the firstfruits of the resurrection of the dead unto bodily immortality. The Jewish Christians James wrote to were the firstfruits of Christ's followers spiritually. That's how the 144,00 should be understood.

 

[rwb]

But those individuals resurrected bodily from death back in OT times and NT times during Christ's ministry ARE presently alive in those glorified bodies in heaven.

NOT glorified bodies yet while a spiritual body of believers in heaven. Believers shall all become the glorified body of Christ TOGETHER, in the time that is coming when the last trumpet sounds and those who are dead resurrected to life, and believers alive at His coming caught up together with those from the grave, and TOGETHER changed, in a moment and twinkling of an eye from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible.

In 1Cor 15 Paul writes not only of what shall become of faithful saints when our natural body of flesh dies, but also of our bodily/physical resurrection and change that shall be when the last trumpet sounds. Knowing our natural body returns to dust some desired to understand how the dead would be raised, and with what body would they be resurrected with.

1 Corinthians 15:35 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

Paul explains that death of the physical body is necessary otherwise, like seeds of grain there would be no chance for seed of grain to become wheat. In death there is a separation of that which continues in life eternal and that which is destined to die. That's what Paul means when he says it is sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:37-38 (KJV) And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

We know the spirit within man of faith continues to live after physical death because Christ promises the life we have when we believe in Him is eternal, even though our flesh & bone is destined to death. Knowing this Paul exhorts us to remain faithful unto death, because when our spirit is absent from our flesh we as spiritual body of believers are present in heaven with the Lord.

Those saints of Old that were witnessed as having been physically resurrected, had not changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible. That's why these ALL died again. Those faithful saints that came out of the graves went into the holy city to Jerusalem from above, not of this earth, but as the spiritual body of believers before God. Just as on earth believers are called a physical body of Christ corporately, so too in heaven faithful saints are called a spiritual body of Christ there.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Paul said Jesus Himself is the firstfruits and you are not accepting that and trying to say that the 144,000 are the firstfruits, thereby contradicting Paul.

I have already written that I accept Paul's statement that Christ was the "First-fruits". What I do NOT accept is your own personal definition of what that "First-fruits" title actually means. I'm not contradicting Paul. Paul himself wrote about the church having the "First-fruits" among them at that time (Romans 8:23).

Revelation 14:4 tells us without doubt that the 144,000 were "the First-fruits unto God and unto the Lamb". These individuals cannot be discounted, and their title that they shared along with "Christ the First-fruits" cannot be erased from scripture. Both the 144,000 (the Matt. 27:52-53 resurrected saints) and Christ together composed the "First resurrection" event as the "First-fruits" harvest.

The souls of the dead in Christ who are in heaven have been redeemed from the earth spiritually. They are now resting from the suffering they experienced while still alive on the earth.

Revelation 14:12 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

I've never denied this. The spirits of those who die in the Lord depart to be with Christ. This was first made possible on the day of Christ's resurrection-day ascension - the "from henceforth" time that Revelation 14:12 speaks about. At that point of Christ's resurrection-day ascension, anyone who died in the Lord from then onward would have their spirit immediately present with the Lord. That is why Paul taught "absent from the body....present with the Lord".

I asked you to show me where it says they were resurrected. So, when do you plan on doing that?

The 144,000 were standing on Mount Zion with the Lamb (meaning they had literal feet that they were using to follow the risen Lamb everywhere He went during those 40 days while He remained on earth). They were learning to "sing that song" that no one else could learn except them, and they had no guile in their mouth (meaning they literally had mouths). Their bodies had not been defiled with women (showing the physical, sexual purity of those 144,000 who were in a bodily-resurrected state). These are not descriptions of a spirit-only condition for those saints whose bodies were still physically dead in the grave.

Just how many indications do you need to prove that these 144,000 First-fruits had received the "redemption of their bodies" in a glorified, immortal condition of resurrected incorruptibility?

 

[3 Resurrections]

We know the spirit within man of faith continues to live after physical death because Christ promises the life we have when we believe in Him is eternal, even though our flesh & bone is destined to death. Knowing this Paul exhorts us to remain faithful unto death, because when our spirit is absent from our flesh we as spiritual body of believers are present in heaven with the Lord.

Absolutely true.

Those saints of Old that were witnessed as having been physically resurrected, had not changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible. That's why these ALL died again.

Absolutely false. There is not a shred of scripture proof that anybody raised from the dead in scripture ever died again. This goes totally contrary to the scripture's stated truth that in the bodily-resurrection process, those "children of the resurrection" never CAN die again and become "equal to the angels" in that respect (Luke 20:35-36). It just isn't possible for humanity to die twice, once they are bodily resurrected from the grave.

 

[WPM]

Part of the problem is that they do not understand harvest.
Nor do they understand paradise, or why those patriarchs were held adjacent to hell.

Add that up, and we have the bizarre misunderstanding of dead in Christ raised, and misunderstanding of firstfruits (Jesus, and the patriarchs).
They are unreachable, embarrassed ( which is why they personally attack you) and frustrated.
They are not happy people.

You come out with claims like this without any basis for your wild claims.

Christ defeated Satan who held the keys of death and of Hades. Christ now holds these. That authority has been taken from the devil. Satan and his power were seriously damaged at the cross. Christ secured these crucial keys of authority over death and hell through His sinless life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection. Death and Hades are now defeated. Sin has been paid in full. The grave has been conquered. God’s people who die now go straight to be with Jesus.

Hell had no more hold upon the redeemed. New Testament Scripture show the dead in Christ now populating heaven instead of Hades. Hades (Abraham's bosom) has been emptied of God’s elect since Christ conquered it. The dead were raised from Hades in spirit and are now reigning with Jesus. But physical resurrection (the final part of the redemptive process) does not occur until Jesus comes to raise the living and the dead at His one final future climactic coming.

Jesus was the first to defeat sin, death, the grave and Hades. He is the first resurrection. After His glorious resurrection, He testified in Revelation 1:18: "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

Christ took these crucial keys of authority over death and hell through His sinless life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection. Christ not only defeated hell and death but acquired “the keys of hell and of death” (Revelation 1:18), triumphing over the prince of darkness. Christ became a curse for the penitent, therefore bearing his curse.

Death and Hades have been wholly conquered. Satan can no longer keep people in the bondage of death. Christ has defeated death. When someone encounters Christ, they experience eternal life, and they shall never die. When Jesus comes the last vestige of death - physical death – is banished forever.

Christ currently holds the keys of Hades and of death, and Satan cannot snatch them out of His hand. He holds the keys because they belong to Him. He possesses all authority in heaven and on earth. That includes power over life and death.