When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?

[Spiritual Israelite]

How convenient. You left off an important part of the scripture. Why not quote the whole sentence? It's because you are attempting to lead believers astray. Here's the rest of the sentence...........

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

The same day the fountains of deep were broken up.................occurred the SAME DAY Noah was 600 years 2 months and 17 days old.

Additionally, we have a new paragraph for the next sentence.

Genesis 7
In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

Noah, his family and ALL the animals entered the ark on the self same day. That day was the day they were told to enter which was the first day. God shut the door of the ark at the end of the first day. And it came to pass after 7 days that the flood was upon the earth.

Genesis 7
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Nothing you quote agrees with the written Word of God.

So, you think you know better than Jesus then? He said the flood came the day Noah entered the ark, so He obviously didn't interpret Genesis 7 the way you do. I can't imagine how huge your ego must be to think that you know better then Jesus.

Beyond that, how does 7 days equate to a 7 year tribulation? No matter how you look at it, your view on this is total nonsense. Also, it's quite convenient for you to ignore Luke 17:28-30 where Jesus said the same day Lot went out of Sodom, fire came down and destroyed the city. Why don't you compare that to the rapture? Hmmm...I wonder....

 

[The Light]

Not so. The resurrection/judgment are tied together. It obviously takes one to allow the other. For there to be one general judgment then Scripture must also teach one general resurrection. This I believe Scripture does in several places.

I believe there is one physical resurrection day that sees one all-encompassing raising of mankind. However, within that one resurrection there are two distinct categories of rising embodied: (1) unto “life,” and (2) unto “damnation.” Notwithstanding, there is an undoubted order to the general resurrection; the dead in Christ will rise first, etc.

It is at this great concluding event that both the righteous and the wicked will be raised to face the great final judgment. Notwithstanding, there are two aspects to the one all-consummating resurrection day.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:41-42, “The men of Nineveh shall rise [Gr. anistemi Strong’s 450] in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. The queen of the south shall rise up [Gr. egeiro Strong’s 1453] in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.”

The righteous Old Testament Gentile saint – the queen of the south – is raised at the same time as the wicked Pharisees of Christ’s day to stand before the same judgment seat of Christ.

This is further impressed in the parallel portion in Luke 11:31, only with an additional example, saying, “The queen of the south shall rise up [Gr. egeiro Strong’s 1453] in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh shall rise up [Gr. anistemi Strong’s 450] in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.”

Here, the two main words used throughout the New Testament for resurrection are applied to the general resurrection that occurs on Judgment Day when the Old Testament time saints and wicked join the New Testament saints and wicked at the judgment. Remember the queen of the south and Nineveh are presented as Old Testament Gentile saints that will “rise up in the judgment with” the wicked unbelieving Jews of Christ’s day. There is no prolonged parenthesis period separating the resurrection of the wicked dead and the resurrection of the righteous dead. They both “rise up” at the same time. The Old Testament Gentile city of Nineveh is shown to “rise up in the judgment with” (or meta) the religious Jewish world of Christ’s day and “condemn it.” The Greek word meta (3326) is described in Strong’s concordance as “a primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly, denoting accompaniment; ‘amid’.”

I'll keep it simple. You claim ALL stay in the grave until the judgement which you say is tied together. These verses prove you wrong........again.

Matthew 27
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'll keep it simple. You claim ALL stay in the grave until the judgement which you say is tied together. These verses prove you wrong........again.

Matthew 27
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Where does that say they were resurrected unto bodily immortality? That is the context of what he is talking about. Obviously, there were some like those referenced in that passage and Lazarus and a few others who were resurrected, but not unto bodily immortality. That would contradict 1 Corinthians 15:20-23 which says that Jesus Himself was the first to be resurrected unto bodily immortality with the next in order being those who belong to Him at His second coming.

 

[The Light]

So, you think you know better than Jesus then? He said the flood came the day Noah entered the ark, so He obviously didn't interpret Genesis 7 the way you do. I can't imagine how huge your ego must be to think that you know better then Jesus.

The scripture says that they were eating and drinking UNTIL THE DAY Noah entered the ark. But you can't accept the written Word of God.

Matthew 24
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Beyond that, how does 7 days equate to a 7 year tribulation?

There is not a 7 year tribulation. There is a 70th week of Daniel.

No matter how you look at it, your view on this is total nonsense.

Gee. When you look at things like they are written it all makes perfect sense. Try accepting the written Word of God.

Also, it's quite convenient for you to ignore Luke 17:28-30 where Jesus said the same day Lot went out of Sodom, fire came down and destroyed the city. Why don't you compare that to the rapture? Hmmm...I wonder....

You don't pay much attention do you. There are 2 raptures. The first will be like the days of Noah where Noah is sealed in the ark 6 days before the flood.

If you are looking to apply the days of Lot, you would realize that this coming of Jesus occurs at the 6th seal. The Day of the Lord is the 7th seal. The day of the Lord lasts one-year. The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. So it will be at the second rapture.

There are two raptures. Jacob had two brides. There is a grain harvest and a wheat harvest. One rapture at the trump of God or voice of God and one rapture at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

 

[The Light]

Where does that say they were resurrected unto bodily immortality? That is the context of what he is talking about. Obviously, there were some like those referenced in that passage and Lazarus and a few others who were resurrected, but not unto bodily immortality. That would contradict 1 Corinthians 15:20-23 which says that Jesus Himself was the first to be resurrected unto bodily immortality with the next in order being those who belong to Him at His second coming.

This is a good point. I was trying to keep it simple, but stepped in the chili.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The scripture says that they were eating and drinking UNTIL THE DAY Noah entered the ark. But you can't accept the written Word of God.

I do accept that. Are you trying to lie about me again? Do you ever repent of your lies?

There is not a 7 year tribulation. There is a 70th week of Daniel.

What does that have to do with Noah entering the ark?

Gee. When you look at things like they are written it all makes perfect sense. Try accepting the written Word of God.

Try not talking nonsense for once and see where it leads.

You don't pay much attention do you.

Sure I do. But, it doesn't take much attention to see that your doctrine is absolute nonsense.

There are 2 raptures.

Yet, somehow Paul only knew about one of them? I don't buy it for a second.

The first will be like the days of Noah where Noah is sealed in the ark 6 days before the flood.

LOL. What do 6 days before the flood have to do with a future tribulation period that lasts for years? LOL. Utter nonsense. You cannot be taken seriously.

If you are looking to apply the days of Lot, you would realize that this coming of Jesus occurs at the 6th seal. The Day of the Lord is the 7th seal. The day of the Lord lasts one-year. The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. So it will be at the second rapture.

LOL. The "second rapture". LOL!!!! This isn't even worthy of a response except...LOL!

There are two raptures. Jacob had two brides. There is a grain harvest and a wheat harvest. One rapture at the trump of God or voice of God and one rapture at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

More nonsense. How many brides does Jesus have? One. So, there will be one rapture. Very simple. My patience is running low on wasting my time on this nonsense.

 

[honeycomb]

Yes…and to add, all InChrist since His Resurrection are those who take part in the first resurrection.
We were all raised ‘in Christ’ to Life. In fact, we died, we were raised and we ascended with and In Him.
He placed us into Himself and so His history became ours. Now, we have this Treasure in earthen vessels and because flesh and blood or the perishable cannot inherit the Kingdom…we will be changed. Corruption into incorruptible. Praise the Lord!

Indeed! spot on! Immortality = eternal life!

No one who has died and gone to heaven has gone through the First Resurrection yet. This will happen when Jesus returns at the last (7th) trumpet.

 

[WPM]

How convenient. You left off an important part of the scripture. Why not quote the whole sentence? It's because you are attempting to lead believers astray. Here's the rest of the sentence...........

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

The same day the fountains of deep were broken up.................occurred the SAME DAY Noah was 600 years 2 months and 17 days old.

Additionally, we have a new paragraph for the next sentence.

Genesis 7
In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

Noah, his family and ALL the animals entered the ark on the self same day. That day was the day they were told to enter which was the first day. God shut the door of the ark at the end of the first day. And it came to pass after 7 days that the flood was upon the earth.

Genesis 7
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Nothing you quote agrees with the written Word of God.

Hello! Read it! It demolishes your opinion. Jesus words reinforce the Amil thesis and demolishes Pretrib and Premil.

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

You seem to have a major issue with taking the Bible literally. You're making Christ out to be a liar.

Where did Jesus say that Noah being seven days in the ark (which did not even happen) represents seven days of tribulation at the end? Nowhere! Is there anywhere that says it was seven days of tribulation for the wicked outside the ark before the flood? This exposes the faulty hermeneutics of Pretrib. This is where their force type falls apart. This is theological gerrymandering. Christ's exclusive focus is upon the actual day that Noah entered the ark and the judgment fell right and destroyed all the wicked. There is no rebuttal to that!

 

[honeycomb]

So, if the rapture occurs at the same time as Christ's wrath occurs at His second coming, who does that leave to populate an earthly millennial kingdom, keeping in mind that we will all have immortal bodies?

Everyone! All will be changed into a spiritual body (the good and the bad) at the 7th trump.
Not everyone will go through the First Resurrection, only “true blue” Christians will.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hello! Read it! It demolishes your opinion. Jesus words reinforce the Amil thesis and demolishes Pretrib and Premil.

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

You seem to have a major issue with taking the Bible literally. You're making Christ out to be a liar.

Where did Jesus say that Noah being seven days in the ark (which did not even happen) represents seven days of tribulation at the end? Nowhere! Is there anywhere that says it was seven days of tribulation for the wicked outside the ark before the flood? This exposes the faulty hermeneutics of Pretrib. This is where their force type falls apart. This is theological gerrymandering. Christ's exclusive focus is upon the actual day that Noah entered the ark and the judgment fell right and destroyed all the wicked. There is no rebuttal to that!

Agree completely. And, how convenient of him to relate the supposed 7 days before the flood that Noah entered the ark to a pretrib rapture, but not relating the fire coming down on Sodom the same day that Lot went out of Sodom to the rapture. That's the kind of selective cherry picking of scripture that pretrib does constantly.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Everyone! All will be changed into a spiritual body (the good and the bad) at the 7th trump.
Not everyone will go through the First Resurrection, only “true blue” Christians will.

Where is this taught in scripture? Non-Christians will be killed when Jesus returns at the 7th trumpet and then will face judgment. They will not be populating the earth for a thousand years after that. That makes no sense at all. Who then would be the ones who are killed in Revelation 20:9 after Satan is loosed? A spiritual body is an immortal body, so there would be no one around to be killed at that time. Please think about this.

 

[honeycomb]

Where is this taught in scripture? Non-Christians will be killed when Jesus returns at the 7th trumpet and then will face judgment. They will not be populating the earth for a thousand years after that. That makes no sense at all. Who then would be the ones who are killed in Revelation 20:9 after Satan is loosed? A spiritual body is an immortal body, so there would be no one around to be killed at that time. Please think about this.

You got scriptures? I do.

 

[honeycomb]

Where is this taught in scripture? Non-Christians will be killed when Jesus returns at the 7th trumpet and then will face judgment. They will not be populating the earth for a thousand years after that. That makes no sense at all. Who then would be the ones who are killed in Revelation 20:9 after Satan is loosed? A spiritual body is an immortal body, so there would be no one around to be killed at that time. Please think about this.

So when is the Great White Throne Judgment?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You got scriptures? I do.

Of course. I have lots of them. You want scriptures that show all unbelievers will be killed when Christ returns? I have those. You want scriptures showing all people being judged when Jesus returns at the end of the age? I have those. So, what do you want to see?

If you have scriptures to back up your claims, then please show them. I'm tired of people just giving opinions without backing them up with scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So when is the Great White Throne Judgment?

It will happen when Jesus returns after the thousand years and Satan's little season. It is portrayed in both Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11 to 21:5.

 

[WPM]

Agree completely. And, how convenient of him to relate the supposed 7 days before the flood that Noah entered the ark to a pretrib rapture, but not relating the fire coming down on Sodom the same day that Lot went out of Sodom to the rapture. That's the kind of selective cherry picking of scripture that pretrib does constantly.

I think the reader can see for themselves that their whole paradigm as a manipulated joke.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think the reader can see for themselves that their whole paradigm as a manipulated joke.

Yes, I think any objective onlooker can clearly see that. The amount of twisting of scripture that they do is just utterly ridiculous. A supposed 7 day time period is used as evidence of a future 7 year time period and other complete nonsense like that.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Romans 11, says different that your belief.
You are way off.

No, Romans 11 is not any different than what I've written. Romans 11 rather confirms what I'm saying. Paul wrote that natural ethnic Israel had only a "remnant" at that present time (Rom. 11:5) which were believing the gospel. This was prophesied by Isaiah long ago (Is. 10:21-22) and by the "Song of Moses" (Deut. 32:21) which predicted that God would use a "foolish nation" and "them that are no people" to provoke ethnic Israel to jealousy. This was happening in the years immediately following Christ's ascension. This resulted in the Jewish leadership's persecution of the saints at Jerusalem and beyond.

Generally speaking, ethnic Israel back then was an "enemy" of the children of faith, except for the "election" which was "beloved for the father's sakes". That "remnant" of believing ethnic Israelites were beloved as part of the children of faith, but the rest of ethnic Israel were "blinded" and had become an "enemy".

Romans 11 and the context surrounding it are a commentary on the two classifications of the natural ethnic children of Abraham and the spiritual children of faithful Abraham - the "Israel of God". We get in trouble when we confuse the different destinies of these two groups. Ethnic Israel as the formerly-called "holy people" of Deut. 14:2 was going to have their power shattered (as in Dan. 12:7). The other "Israel of God" would be composed of the children of faith coming from all nations (including some from ethnic Israel). These were the inhabitants of the "New Jerusalem" reality in which we as believers still live today.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Where does that say they were resurrected unto bodily immortality? That is the context of what he is talking about. Obviously, there were some like those referenced in that passage and Lazarus and a few others who were resurrected, but not unto bodily immortality. That would contradict 1 Corinthians 15:20-23 which says that Jesus Himself was the first to be resurrected unto bodily immortality with the next in order being those who belong to Him at His second coming.

ANYBODY resurrected to life again in scripture necessarily was given an incorruptible and immortal body form. That is how the resurrectoin process works, according to 1 Cor. 15:51-54.

And you have misquoted 1 Cor. 15:20-23. It does NOT say that Jesus was the first to be resurrected unto bodily immortality. It says He was "the First-fruits". That is a plural term referring to a harvest of multiple individuals from the dust of the grave. It doesn't refer to a single stalk of grain. There were 144,000 other First-fruits raised the same day as Christ in Matt. 27:52-53. These received the very same type of glorified, resurrected body as the risen Lord.

 

[3 Resurrections]

So you have no proof Christ came in 70 ad.You just made it all up.

I said there are archeological proofs that Christ returned to the Mount of Olives back in AD 70 and resurrected His saints, returning to heaven with them. We also have almost every single writer in the NT testifying that this second coming return was at hand for that generation, as well as a resurrection of the dead, both the just and the unjust. Christ had predicted He would return while there were still some alive that He had spoken to in Matt. 16:27-28. His disciples believed Him, and taught the same. This is not something that I have made up.