When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?

[rebuilder 454]

Christ on the way to the cross predicted that very wrath of God falling on those in Israel and their children. "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?" (Luke 23:28-31).

It was that first-century generation of Israelites and their own children who experienced all of that. And it was in the AD 66-70 period, because Daniel 12:7 had predicted that it would take a "time, times, and half a time" (3-1/2 years) to shatter the power of the holy people.

Israel being a vineyard is mentioned multiple times in scripture.

The "Song of Moses" in Deuteronomy 32:32 calls Israel "the vine of Sodom".
Hosea 10:1 called Israel "an empty vine" that brought forth fruit unto himself.
Isaiah 5 has a lengthy message to Israel as the vineyard, with verse 7 saying, "For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel". Mark 12:1-12 was Christ's parable of the vineyard, which even the chief priests, scribes, and elders knew that this parable about the "vineyard" let out to evil "husbandmen" was spoken against themselves.

The Jews were well aware of the comparison of their nation with a vineyard and with the "wild grapes" of Isaiah 5:2 that the nation had produced. That "vineyard" was reaped by the second sickle in Revelation 14:17-20 wielded by the angel, and the "clusters of the vine of the earth" were thrown into the winepress to be crushed. That was the destruction of Israel as a nation in the AD 66-70 period. Christ is pictured as doing the treading of that winepress in Revelation 19:15. "And he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God". Christ's whole vesture is dipped in the blood of His enemies at that point, which stains all His raiment, just as prophesied in Isaiah 63:1-6.


Not according to John's presentation of Mystery Babylon / Jerusalem who was guilty of the blood of all the slain righteous from Abel to Zecharias, including the prophets and apostles (Rev. 18:20). Christ had already accused Jerusalem of this blood guilt in Matt. 23:37, and promised to bring that blood guilt upon that first-century generation of Israelites in Luke 11:49-51.


That is too generic a translation. The Greek "mello" term emphasizes the imminence of all those prophecies of John's immediate future. "Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are ABOUT TO (mellei) come after these things;"

There is additional urgency with John saying that "the time is AT HAND" for those prophecies. This indicated that the time of fulfillment for Revelation's prophecies of the future to begin unfolding had then arrived as John was writing the book.

Romans 11, says different that your belief.
You are way off.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The word "Many" doesn't exclude "All" nor does "All" exclude "Many" they're completely compatible, and a parallel reading of the same future event, concerning the last day resurrection

Amil dilemma.
You just stumbled upon it

In the rapture ONLY the dead in christ are raised.

 

[WPM]

There is nothing that I will fail to address about this. Please show with a Bible verse where you get the term "general resurrection"

Then address this...............Are Christians raised from the dead to the resurrection of life as we see in John 5 because they have been good?

John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

You totally ignored what I wrote and simply repeated the party line. Pretribbers have to do that. The general resurrection describes what is before us in the reading.

Daniel 12:1-3 reveals, “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.”

The first thing we need to establish in Daniel 12 is: this is describing a general resurrection. This resurrection involves two types of people – the righteous and the wicked; one group rises "to everlasting life" the other to "everlasting contempt."

Jesus explains in John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

This reading expressly speaks of a time in history when the dead (both good and evil) “shall hear his (Christ’s) voice, and shall come forth.” Notwithstanding, this perfectly correlates with every explicit reference to the judgment in Scripture that shows both the righteous and wicked being brought to account at the same time. Therefore, both parties must of necessity be raised around the same time to fulfil such. The reading before us substantiates this requirement in the most explicit language possible.

 

[WPM]

What a load. You tried to say that "rab" was translated most often as "great" and not "many". When I called you out for proof, which I knew you didn't have, you gave the hem haw.

"Rab" is translated as "many" in most cases and rarely as great, so take your hollow unsupported nonsense and try to come with another false story to support your false doctrine.


That is obviously taught in Daniel 12:1-2. You have failed in your attempt to disprove this.

John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Just one question. Is a Christian raised to the resurrection of life for doing good?

Remember your claim there is but one resurrection.

The word here for “many” in the original Hebrew (rab) actually means: the abundance, referring to quantity, size, age, number, rank, quality. In the sense it is used here it includes everyone that is in the grave. Namely: “the abundance of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake.”

The all-inclusive resurrection that the Old Testament prophet foresaw is confirmed in the New Testament writings. "All" indeed the dead come forth when Jesus comes. The abundance of the dead are released on that great climatic day.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Holy people are the saints of God cleansed in the blood of the lamb of God.

You believe profane phariseeess were holy when they were not.Christ is holy and the saints in Christ is holy.That is who the holy people Daniel was writing of.

I believe God's statement concerning the people of Israel back in Deut. 7:6, 14:2 and the like. "For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth." Daniel was referring to his own ethnic nation of Israel as the "holy people" when that Dan. 12:7 prediction was given about ethnic Israel's coming destruction, which took place in the first century.

It was because ethnic Israel had not lived up to that designation of the "holy people" that God "shattered the power of the holy people". (God will never shatter the power of the holy people that have His indwelling Spirit within them. He promised that indwelling Spirit will be with us always and forever, so Daniel 12:7 cannot be referring to the saints of God.)

As for Luke,Romans did not make Jerusalem desolate.The Romans continued to occupy Jerusalem long after 70 ad .Desolate is without inhabitant which the Romans did not.

The prediction was that it would be PLURAL ABOMINABLE ARMIES that would make Jerusalem desolate. But Rome wasn't even present at Jerusalem from the time Cestius Gallus's Roman troops were defeated in AD 66 until Titus came again in early AD 70 just after Passover week had started. For those 3.5 years in between, it was the competing ZEALOT ARMIES inside Jerusalem which had come from "Galilee of the Gentiles" that were "treading the holy city underfoot" for those 42 months. Civil war taking place inside Jerusalem created all kinds of desolations that were determined until the end of the war (Dan. 9:27). The city's surviving inhabitants were taken captive into all nations and the city's buildings leveled to the ground within it, just as Christ had predicted.

And you are right that it wasn't Rome that created those signs in the heavens back then. Those signs in the heavens were God's work, prior to Christ's second-coming return on AD 70's Pentecost day.

You claim Jesus came in 70 ad and gathered his elect.Do you have any historians who witnessed this event or did you just make this up yourself?

There are archaeological proofs of Christ's second-coming bodily return in AD 70 which I have posted about before. You and others who are disbelieving of this and demand a hand-written scroll of someone witnessing this event remind me of doubting Thomas..."Except I shall see the prints...I will not believe". It should be enough for you that Christ had predicted His second coming return before some of those He was speaking to in Matt. 16:27-28 had yet died. If Christ did not keep His word and bodily return to earth back in the first century, then He was a false prophet and your faith is in vain.

 

[The Light]

You totally ignored what I wrote and simply repeated the party line. Pretribbers have to do that. The general resurrection describes what is before us in the reading.

Sounds Democratic. Accuse others of what you are doing.

Daniel 12:1-3 reveals, “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.”

The first thing we need to establish in Daniel 12 is: this is describing a general resurrection. This resurrection involves two types of people – the righteous and the wicked; one group rises "to everlasting life" the other to "everlasting contempt."

Ah...........nope. Just something you are making up because Daniel 12 is one of the MANY things that blows your doctrine out of the water.

This is a specific group..........the people of Daniel.........and this event occurs at a specific time...........the end of the great tribulation. The great tribulation is over before the 6th seal is opened, which again is another of the MANY things that blows your doctrine out of the water.

So, you want to claim a "general resurrection" without any scriptural support. I guess I'll claim a "specific resurrection" because I have scriptural support.

Jesus explains in John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

This reading expressly speaks of a time in history when the dead (both good and evil) “shall hear his (Christ’s) voice, and shall come forth.” Notwithstanding, this perfectly correlates with every explicit reference to the judgment in Scripture that shows both the righteous and wicked being brought to account at the same time. Therefore, both parties must of necessity be raised around the same time to fulfil such. The reading before us substantiates this requirement in the most explicit language possible.

You already have a problem you cannot solve because Daniel 12:1-2 occurs with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, immediately after the tribulation of those days and John 5 occurs after the 7th trumpet is blown.

Problems, you don't even understand let alone can address.

 

[The Light]

The word here for “many” in the original Hebrew (rab) actually means: the abundance, referring to quantity, size, age, number, rank, quality. In the sense it is used here it includes everyone that is in the grave. Namely: “the abundance of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake.”

The all-inclusive resurrection that the Old Testament prophet foresaw is confirmed in the New Testament writings. "All" indeed the dead come forth when Jesus comes. The abundance of the dead are released on that great climatic day.

Am I going to have to dig up that post where you claimed abundance with all the different terms that you presented and I went through and disproved every single point.

Abundance is not ALL. Many of them is not ALL of them. You have no answers as usual. Deny, deny, deny.

 

[The Light]

There is only one First Resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

- Revelation 20:6

The first resurrection is the resurrection of the righteous and there are several resurrections of the righteous.

The first car was a Ford and there are several Fords out there.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Am I going to have to dig up that post where you claimed abundance with all the different terms that you presented and I went through and disproved every single point.

Abundance is not ALL. Many of them is not ALL of them. You have no answers as usual. Deny, deny, deny.

What is your excuse for your ignorance? Many does not mean many, but not all. Look up the Hebrew word for yourself. Are you afraid to do that?

You are trying to force a definition on the Hebrew word raḇ (Strong's H727 - translated as "many" in Daniel 12:2) that doesn't exist.

Here are a few examples where the word is used to describe all of something rather than many, but not all of something.

Genesis 21:33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the Lord, the everlasting God. 34 And Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land many (rab) days.

This passage is referring to all of the days that Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land, of which there were "many".

Genesis 37:31 And they took Joseph's coat, and killed a kid of the goats, and dipped the coat in the blood; 32 And they sent the coat of many colours, and they brought it to their father; and said, This have we found: know now whether it be thy son's coat or no. 33 And he knew it, and said, It is my son's coat; an evil beast hath devoured him; Joseph is without doubt rent in pieces. 34 And Jacob rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his loins, and mourned for his son many (rab) days.

This describes Jacob thinking that his son Joseph was dead and mourning for his son "many days". But, it does not refer to many, but not all of the days he mourned, it describes all of the days he mourned, of which there were many.

Exodus 5:4 And the king of Egypt said unto them, Wherefore do ye, Moses and Aaron, let the people from their works? get you unto your burdens. 5 And Pharaoh said, Behold, the people of the land now are many (rab), and ye make them rest from their burdens.

Here, Pharaoah refers to the Israelite slaves in Egypt and said there were "many". He was referring to all of them, the number of which were "many".

So, now that we know what the word actually means and what it doesn't mean, Daniel 12:2 should be understood to be talking about all of the dead being resurrected at generally the same time with the number of them being "many". It's clearly referring to the same resurrection of all the dead that Jesus referred to here:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[tailgator]

I believe God's statement concerning the people of Israel back in Deut. 7:6, 14:2 and the like. "For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth." Daniel was referring to his own ethnic nation of Israel as the "holy people" when that Dan. 12:7 prediction was given about ethnic Israel's coming destruction, which took place in the first century.

It was because ethnic Israel had not lived up to that designation of the "holy people" that God "shattered the power of the holy people". (God will never shatter the power of the holy people that have His indwelling Spirit within them. He promised that indwelling Spirit will be with us always and forever, so Daniel 12:7 cannot be referring to the saints of God.)


The prediction was that it would be PLURAL ABOMINABLE ARMIES that would make Jerusalem desolate. But Rome wasn't even present at Jerusalem from the time Cestius Gallus's Roman troops were defeated in AD 66 until Titus came again in early AD 70 just after Passover week had started. For those 3.5 years in between, it was the competing ZEALOT ARMIES inside Jerusalem which had come from "Galilee of the Gentiles" that were "treading the holy city underfoot" for those 42 months. Civil war taking place inside Jerusalem created all kinds of desolations that were determined until the end of the war (Dan. 9:27). The city's surviving inhabitants were taken captive into all nations and the city's buildings leveled to the ground within it, just as Christ had predicted.

And you are right that it wasn't Rome that created those signs in the heavens back then. Those signs in the heavens were God's work, prior to Christ's second-coming return on AD 70's Pentecost day.

There are archaeological proofs of Christ's second-coming bodily return in AD 70 which I have posted about before. You and others who are disbelieving of this and demand a hand-written scroll of someone witnessing this event remind me of doubting Thomas..."Except I shall see the prints...I will not believe". It should be enough for you that Christ had predicted His second coming return before some of those He was speaking to in Matt. 16:27-28 had yet died. If Christ did not keep His word and bodily return to earth back in the first century, then He was a false prophet and your faith is in vain.

So you have no proof Christ came in 70 ad.You just made it all up.

And you believe the phariseeess were holy people and you believe all Jews who deny Christ are holy people.That is just absurd .

Deuteronomy is speaking of the saints of God in Christ.

Deuteronomy 7:6
6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:



I think you have proven that you have not received the holy Ghost and that you have not been made holy since you believe the profane people who reject Christ are holy.

 

[tailgator]

The first resurrection is the resurrection of the righteous and there are several resurrections of the righteous.

The first car was a Ford and there are several Fords out there.

The first car was not a Ford.It was a Benz patent motor car.

 

[WPM]

Sounds Democratic. Accuse others of what you are doing.


Ah...........nope. Just something you are making up because Daniel 12 is one of the MANY things that blows your doctrine out of the water.

This is a specific group..........the people of Daniel.........and this event occurs at a specific time...........the end of the great tribulation. The great tribulation is over before the 6th seal is opened, which again is another of the MANY things that blows your doctrine out of the water.

So, you want to claim a "general resurrection" without any scriptural support. I guess I'll claim a "specific resurrection" because I have scriptural support.


You already have a problem you cannot solve because Daniel 12:1-2 occurs with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, immediately after the tribulation of those days and John 5 occurs after the 7th trumpet is blown.

Problems, you don't even understand let alone can address.

More avoidance. These Scriptures agree and forbid your Pretrib and Premil.

 

[The Light]

More avoidance.

Right out of the playbook of those that think they have replaced Israel. Deny, deny, deny.

Deny you were answered. Deny the scripture proves you wrong and deny the truth.

Then come back with same totally failed argument later like you have something. But you don't because scripture proves you wrong.

These Scriptures agree and forbid your Pretrib and Premil.

Ah...........nope. Just something you are making up because Daniel 12 is one of the MANY things that blows your doctrine out of the water.

This is a specific group..........the people of Daniel.........and this event occurs at a specific time...........the end of the great tribulation. The great tribulation is over before the 6th seal is opened, which again is another of the MANY things that blows your doctrine out of the water.

So, you want to claim a "general resurrection" without any scriptural support. I guess I'll claim a "specific resurrection" because I have scriptural support.


You already have a problem you cannot solve because Daniel 12:1-2 occurs with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, immediately after the tribulation of those days and John 5 occurs after the 7th trumpet is blown.

Problems, you don't even understand let alone can address.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Right out of the playbook of those that think they have replaced Israel. Deny, deny, deny.

All you have left to do at this point is lie. You literally have nothing else to offer but false teaching. Amils do NOT think we have replaced Israel. We, the church (Christians), are Spiritual Israel (the Israel of God - Gal 6:15-16) and are a separate entity from the nation of Israel, which we do NOT replace.

 

[The Light]

The first car was not a Ford.It was a Benz patent motor car.

Or was it Gottlieb Daimler.

Doesn't change the premise.

 

[honeycomb]

The first resurrection is the resurrection of the righteous and there are several resurrections of the righteous.

The first car was a Ford and there are several Fords out there.

Uhhhh…nah. The First Resurrection is wayyyy different. Be back later

 

[WPM]

Right out of the playbook of those that think they have replaced Israel. Deny, deny, deny.

Deny you were answered. Deny the scripture proves you wrong and deny the truth.

Then come back with same totally failed argument later like you have something. But you don't because scripture proves you wrong.



Ah...........nope. Just something you are making up because Daniel 12 is one of the MANY things that blows your doctrine out of the water.

This is a specific group..........the people of Daniel.........and this event occurs at a specific time...........the end of the great tribulation. The great tribulation is over before the 6th seal is opened, which again is another of the MANY things that blows your doctrine out of the water.

So, you want to claim a "general resurrection" without any scriptural support. I guess I'll claim a "specific resurrection" because I have scriptural support.


You already have a problem you cannot solve because Daniel 12:1-2 occurs with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, immediately after the tribulation of those days and John 5 occurs after the 7th trumpet is blown.

Problems, you don't even understand let alone can address.

You are living in denial. These texts alone (along with others) demolish your doctrine. All you have now is denials!

 

[The Light]

All you have left to do at this point is lie. You literally have nothing else to offer but false teaching. Amils do NOT think we have replaced Israel. We, the church (Christians), are Spiritual Israel (the Israel of God - Gal 6:15-16) and are a separate entity from the nation of Israel, which we do NOT replace.

Again, right out the playbook of those that think they have replaced Israel. It's called Replacement Theology for a reason. You can call it new covenant theology or supersessionism theology buts it's all the same. It is the doctrine that was started because men did not believe that God would keep His Word to Israel. You would think some of you would wake up and realize God kept His word and will keep ALL His word.

The sad thing is you are not interested in the truth. You are only interested in protecting a failed doctrine birthed by unbelieving men.

 

[The Light]

You are living in denial. These texts alone (along with others) demolish your doctrine. All you have now is denials!

That's it. That's the best you got. I've got scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Again, right out the playbook of those that think they have replaced Israel. It's called Replacement Theology for a reason.

Who do I have being replaced in my doctrine? No one. I don't have the nation of Israel being replaced. My view has Gentile believers being joined with Israelite believers together as one body of Christ and has Gentile believers being fellow citizens and fellow heirs with Israelite believers of God's promises to Abraham and his seed (Galatians 3:16-29, Ephesians 2:11-3:6).

You can call it new covenant theology or supersessionism theology buts it's all the same. It is the doctrine that was started because men did not believe that God would keep His Word to Israel.

He kept His Word to Israel by sending His Son to die for their sins while giving them all the opportunity to be saved and have their sins forgiven. What more does He need to do for them?

Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

You would think some of you would wake up and realize God kept His word and will keep ALL His word.

I never have said otherwise. Lying about me does nothing but expose that you are a liar.

The sad thing is you are not interested in the truth. You are only interested in protecting a failed doctrine birthed by unbelieving men.

I'm showing you the truth that you are rejecting. That's your fault.