What is the one true Church?

[Grailhunter]

The Roman guards at the tomb had a job to do - and PART of that job was to quell the Jews who had insisted on a 24 hour guard. Pilate would have had them put to death if they deviated from his orders. Hisotry tells us that he was a brutal man who was feared by his men.

The women at the tim were a NON-issue and just another deflection on YOUR part . . .

You missed the point. Not going to try to explain it to you.

 

[Grailhunter]

SCRIPTURE DESTROYS WHAT YOUR FALSE PROPHETS HAVE TAUGHT YOU GRAILHUNTER:

Peter is mentioned 155 times and the rest of apostles combined are only mentioned 130 times.

Peter is always listed first except in 1 Cor. 3:22 and Gal. 2:9 (which are obvious exceptions to the rule).

Matt. 10:2; Mark 1:36; 3:16; Luke 6:14-16; Acts 1:3; 2:37; 5:29 – these are some of many examples where Peter is mentioned first among the apostles.

Matt. 14:28-29 – only Peter has the faith to walk on water. No other man in Scripture is said to have the faith to walk on water. This faith ultimately did not fail.

Matt. 16:16, Mark 8:29; John 6:69 – Peter is first among the apostles to confess the divinity of Christ.

Matt. 16:17 – Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father.

Matt. 16:18 – Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head.

Matt. 16:19 – only Peter receives the keys, which represent authority over the Church and facilitate dynastic succession to his authority.

Matt. 17:24-25 – the tax collector approaches Peter for Jesus’ tax. Peter is the spokesman for Jesus. He is the Vicar of Christ.

Matt. 17:26-27 – Jesus pays the half-shekel tax with one shekel, for both Jesus and Peter. Peter is Christ’s representative on earth.

Matt. 18:21 – in the presence of the disciples, Peter asks Jesus about the rule of forgiveness. One of many examples where Peter takes a leadership role among the apostles in understanding Jesus’ teachings.

Matt. 19:27 – Peter speaks on behalf of the apostles by telling Jesus that they have left everything to follow Him.

Mark 10:28 – here also, Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples by declaring that they have left everything to follow Him.

Mark 11:21 – Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples in remembering Jesus’ curse on the fig tree.

Mark 14:37 – at Gethsemane, Jesus asks Peter, and no one else, why he was asleep. Peter is accountable to Jesus for his actions on behalf of the apostles because he has been appointed by Jesus as their leader.

Mark 16:7 – Peter is specified by an angel as the leader of the apostles as the angel confirms the resurrection of Christ.

Luke 5:3 – Jesus teaches from Peter’s boat which is metaphor for the Church. Jesus guides Peter and the Church into all truth.

Luke 5:4,10 – Jesus instructs Peter to let down the nets for a catch, and the miraculous catch follows. Peter, the Pope, is the “fisher of men.”

Luke 7:40-50- Jesus addresses Peter regarding the rule of forgiveness and Peter answers on behalf of the disciples. Jesus also singles Peter out and judges his conduct vis-à-vis the conduct of the woman who anointed Him.

Luke 8:45 – when Jesus asked who touched His garment, it is Peter who answers on behalf of the disciples.


Luke 8:51; 9:28; 22:8; Acts 1:13; 3:1,3,11; 4:13,19; 8:14 – Peter is always mentioned before John, the disciple whom Jesus loved.

Luke 9:28;33 – Peter is mentioned first as going to mountain of transfiguration and the only one to speak at the transfiguration.

Luke 12:41 – Peter seeks clarification of a parable on behalf on the disciples. This is part of Peter’s formation as the chief shepherd of the flock after Jesus ascended into heaven.

Luke 22:31-32 – Jesus prays for Peter alone, that his faith may not fail, and charges him to strengthen the rest of the apostles.

Luke 24:12, John 20:4-6 – John arrived at the tomb first but stopped and waited for Peter. Peter then arrived and entered the tomb first.

Luke 24:34 – the two disciples distinguish Peter even though they both had seen the risen Jesus the previous hour. See Luke 24:33.

John 6:68 – after the disciples leave, Peter is the first to speak and confess his belief in Christ after the Eucharistic discourse.

John 13:6-9 – Peter speaks out to the Lord in front of the apostles concerning the washing of feet.

John 13:36; 21:18 – Jesus predicts Peter’s death. Peter was martyred at Rome in 67 A.D. Several hundred years of papal successors were also martyred.

John 21:2-3,11 – Peter leads the fishing and his net does not break. The boat (the “barque of Peter”) is a metaphor for the Church.

John 21:7 – only Peter got out of the boat and ran to the shore to meet Jesus. Peter is the earthly shepherd leading us to God.

John 21:15 – in front of the apostles, Jesus asks Peter if he loves Jesus “more than these,” which refers to the other apostles. Peter is the head of the apostolic see.

John 21:15-17 – Jesus charges Peter to “feed my lambs,” “tend my sheep,” “feed my sheep.” Sheep means all people, even the apostles.

Acts 1:13 – Peter is first when entering upper room after our Lord’s ascension. The first Eucharist and Pentecost were given in this room.

Acts 1:15 – Peter initiates the selection of a successor to Judas right after Jesus ascended into heaven, and no one questions him. Further, if the Church needed a successor to Judas, wouldn’t it need one to Peter? Of course.

Acts 2:14 – Peter is first to speak for the apostles after the Holy Spirit descended upon them at Pentecost. Peter is the first to preach the Gospel.

Acts 2:38 – Peter gives first preaching in the early Church on repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

Acts 3:1,3,4 – Peter is mentioned first as going to the Temple to pray.

Acts 3:6-7 – Peter works the first healing of the apostles.

Acts 3:12-26, 4:8-12 – Peter teaches the early Church the healing through Jesus and that there is no salvation other than Christ.

Acts 5:3 – Peter declares the first anathema of Ananias and Sapphira which is ratified by God, and brings about their death. Peter exercises his binding authority.

Acts 5:15 – Peter’s shadow has healing power. No other apostle is said to have this power.

Acts 8:14 – Peter is mentioned first in conferring the sacrament of confirmation.

Acts 8:20-23 – Peter casts judgment on Simon’s quest for gaining authority through the laying on of hands. Peter exercises his binding and loosing authority.

Acts 9:32-34 – Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and works the healing of Aeneas.

Acts 9:38-40 – Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and raises Tabitha from the dead.

Acts 10:5 – Cornelius is told by an angel to call upon Peter. Angels are messengers of God. Peter was granted this divine vision.

Acts 10:34-48, 11:1-18 – Peter is first to teach about salvation for all (Jews and Gentiles).

Acts 12:5 – this verse implies that the “whole Church” offered “earnest prayers” for Peter, their leader, during his imprisonment.

Acts 12:6-11 – Peter is freed from jail by an angel. He is the first object of divine intervention in the early Church.

Acts 15:7-12 – Peter resolves the first doctrinal issue on circumcision at the Church’s first council at Jerusalem, and no one questions him. After Peter the Papa spoke, all were kept silent.

Acts 15:12 – only after Peter speaks do Paul and Barnabas (bishops) speak in support of Peter’s definitive teaching.

Acts 15:13-14 – then James speaks to further acknowledge Peter’s definitive teaching. “Simeon (Peter) has related how God first visited…”

Rom. 15:20 – Paul says he doesn’t want to build on “another man’s foundation” referring to Peter, who built the Church in Rome.

1 Cor. 9:5 – Peter is distinguished from the rest of the apostles and brethren of the Lord.

1 Cor. 15:4-8 – Paul distinguishes Jesus’ post-resurrection appearances to Peter from those of the other apostles. Christ appeared “to Cephas, then to the twelve.”

Gal.1:18 – Paul spends fifteen days with Peter privately before beginning his ministry, even after Christ’s Revelation to Paul.

1 Peter 5:1 – Peter acts as the chief bishop by “exhorting” all the other bishops and elders of the Church.

2 Peter 3:16 – Peter is making a judgment on the proper interpretation of Paul’s letters. Peter is the chief shepherd of the flock.

As I said Peter was special. He is not silent. The word leader is not associated with him, but by definition all the Apostles were leaders.
On the topic of the Judaizers, he did not send a letter to James to explain to him how it was going to be....James made the decision, made the statement and sent the letter. By no means did he run the Gentile ministry, Paul was the leader of the Gentile Ministry. Peter was a great guy!

 

[Grailhunter]

No - you got caught with your foot in your mouth, so you owent fisjing for sources to get information for something about which you have NO idea.

You just happened to pick a bad source.

You so funny!

 

[BreadOfLife]

You missed the point. Not going to try to explain it to you.

No - I simply took you out to the historucal woodshed . . .

You so funny!

That's code for:
"I'd better shut up now . . ."

 

[BreadOfLife]

As I said Peter was special. He is not silent. The word leader is not associated with him, but by definition all the Apostles were leaders.
On the topic of the Judaizers, he did not send a letter to James to explain to him how it was going to be....James made the decision, made the statement and sent the letter. By no means did he run the Gentile ministry, Paul was the leader of the Gentile Ministry. Peter was a great guy!

WRONG.

Peter spoke - and James agreed with him (v. 14).
The ENTIRE Council of Apostles sent the letter:

“So WE ALL agreed to choose some men and send them to you . . .”

“With OUR dear friends Barnabas and Paul . . .”

“Therefore WE are sending Judas and Silas . . .”

“It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to US not to burden you . . .”

Get your fatcts straight.

 

[Grailhunter]

No - I simply took you out to the historucal woodshed . . .

That's code for:
"I'd better shut up now . . ."

No - I simply took you out to the historucal woodshed . . .

That's code for:
"I'd better shut up now . . ."

I did give you the information but I am not going to get into details of what the Romans did to women.

 

[Grailhunter]

Peter spoke - and James agreed with him (v. 14).
The ENTIRE Council of Apostles sent the letter:

The Apostles presented their case and James made the decision.
James stated the ruling.

22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas—Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, 23 and they sent this letter by them....Acts 15:22-23

It is Paul, Barnabas, and Silas that are defined as leading men among the brethren and by them that the letter was delivered.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Apostles presented their case and James made the decision.
James stated the ruling.

James reiterated what Peter said earlier and agreed with his conclusion.
He basically said, "As far as I'm concered, I agree with Peter."

22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas—Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, 23 and they sent this letter by them....Acts 15:22-23

It is Paul, Barnabas, and Silas that are defined as leading men among the brethren and by them that the letter was delivered.

Amd yet, YOU claimed in post #1882:
"James made the decision, made the statement and sent the letter"

Make up your mind . . .

 

[Grailhunter]

James reiterated what Peter said earlier and agreed with his conclusion.
He basically said, "As far as I'm concered, I agree with Peter."

Amd yet, YOU claimed in post #1882:
"James made the decision, made the statement and sent the letter"

Make up your mind . . .

James reiterated what Peter said earlier and agreed with his conclusion.
He basically said, "As far as I'm concered, I agree with Peter."

Amd yet, YOU claimed in post #1882:
"James made the decision, made the statement and sent the letter"

Make up your mind . . .

He sent the letter by way of who he considered the leading men among the brethren....Paul, Barnabas, and Silas.

 

[BreadOfLife]

He sent the letter by way of who he considered the leading men among the brethren....Paul, Barnabas, and Silas.

No - THEY (the Apostles) aent the letter . . .

“So WE ALL agreed to choose some men and send them to you . . .”

“With OUR dear friends Barnabas and Paul . . .”

“Therefore WE are sending Judas and Silas . . .”

“It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to US not to burden you . . .”

You've LOST this argument.

 

[Grailhunter]

No - THEY (the Apostles) aent the letter . . .

“So WE ALL agreed to choose some men and send them to you . . .”

“With OUR dear friends Barnabas and Paul . . .”

“Therefore WE are sending Judas and Silas . . .”

“It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to US not to burden you . . .”

You've LOST this argument.

Again....Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas—Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, 23 and they sent this letter by them....Acts 15:22-23

 

[BreadOfLife]

Again....Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas—Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, 23 and they sent this letter by them....Acts 15:22-23

We were talking about WHO made the decision and WHO sent the letter because we were establishing AUTHORITY.
As usual - you are deflecting by changing the to[ic to cover the fact that you LOST the argument.

 

[Grailhunter]

We were talking about WHO made the decision and WHO sent the letter because we were establishing AUTHORITY.
As usual - you ar

e deflecting by changing the to[ic to cover the fact that you LOST the argument.

When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them.

After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, “Brethren, listen to me.

James says, Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,

Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas—Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, 23 and they sent this letter by them,

Peter was not listed as a leading man among the brethren.

James is the central authority here.

Now I am spoon feeding this to you...as if you did not know.....it is just your overwhelming desire to deny the truth.

Good to read the whole chapter.

 

[BreadOfLife]

When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them.

After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, “Brethren, listen to me.

James says, Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,

Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas—Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, 23 and they sent this letter by them,
Peter was not listed as a leading man among the brethren.
James is the central authority here.
Now I am spoon feeding this to you...as if you did not know.....it is just your overwhelming desire to deny the truth.
Good to read the whole chapter.

First of all - NOWHERE does it say James is the "Central” Authority figure here.
Doesn't even IMPLY this. To be fair – uit doesn’t say Peter ism either – but it IMPIES it.
Acts 15:7:15, 19
The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13 When they finished, James spoke up. “Brothers,” he said, “listen to me. 14 Simon[a] has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. 15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:

19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.

This is tantamount to saying. “I agree with Peter that we should not hold the Gentiles to the Law.”
James was the Bishop oof Jerusalem, where the Counsel was held, so he would have absolutely spoke - not NOT before the leader, which was Peter.

 

[Grailhunter]

First of all - NOWHERE does it say James is the "Central” Authority figure here.

Very true, he is just the one making the decision and making the statement.
And setting the parameters.

First of all - NOWHERE does it say James is the "Central” Authority figure here.
Doesn't even IMPLY this. To be fair – uit doesn’t say Peter ism either – but it IMPIES it.
Acts 15:7:15, 19
The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13 When they finished, James spoke up. “Brothers,” he said, “listen to me. 14 Simon[a] has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. 15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:

19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.

This is tantamount to saying. “I agree with Peter that we should not hold the Gentiles to the Law.”
James was the Bishop oof Jerusalem, where the Counsel was held, so he would have absolutely spoke - not NOT before the leader, which was Peter.

Never Peter was silent or did not help present their case.
He agreed with the Apostles presenting the case.
James is the leader of all the Apostles. Something that is not suggested by the Bible or history regarding Peter.
Peter is not even listed as the leading men among the brethren.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Very true, he is just the one making the decision and making the statement.
And setting the parameters.

No - Peter set the parameters (v .7-11).
James reuterated them (v. 14) and agreed.

Never Peter was silent or did not help present their case.
He agreed with the Apostles presenting the case.
James is the leader of all the Apostles. Something that is not suggested by the Bible or history regarding Peter.
Peter is not even listed as the leading men among the brethren.

This is a blsatant LIE, as I ashowed you in verses 7-11.
Ot was Peter who spoke FIRST.

As for James being the "leader" of the Apostles - show me the Chapter and Verse that makes this claim.
YOU keep arguing against Peter's leadership because the word "leader" is never used.

You see - this is where yout false doctriine of Sola Scriptura kicks you in the behind . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Apostles Peter, Paul, John, Matthew, Mark and the others where never roman catholics, never started a denomination called 'catholicism' .

If they were walking the earth today they would be calling the RCC what She truly is = the Babylonian Harlot of Revelation.

Such ignorance.
Time for a Bible Lesson . . .

Apostate Jerusalem and NOT Rome or the Vatican is the “Whore” of Babylon.
FIRST of all – pagan Rome IS Babylon. As for Apostate Jerusalem . . .

1. She "sits on 7 HILLS" (Rev. 17:9)
- Vatican Hill is NOT one of the 7 hills of Rome: Aventine Hill, Caelian Hill, Capitoline Hill, Esquiline Hill, Palatine Hill, Quirinal Hill, Viminal Hill
- Jerusalem DOES sit on 7 hills: Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet, Mount of Corruption, Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built

2. She is called "The Great City" (Rev. 17:18)
- Jerusalem is called the "Great City" - “where also their Lord was crucified” (Rev. 11:8).

3. She is "Drunk on the blood of God's Holy people" (Rev 17:6)
- Not ONLY did Jerusalem kill the prophets (Matt. 23:37, Luke 13:34) - she persecuted the Early Church (Gal. 4:9, 2 Cor 11:23-26).

4. "Jerusalem is the "Faithful City" has become a Whore.
- Isaiah 1:21 laments, "How the FAITHFUL CITY HAS BECOME A WHORE, she who was full of justice! Righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers."

We read that the “ten horns” and the beast will hate the prostitute. “They will make her “desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire” (Rev. 17:16).

What happened in 70 AD??
Pagan Rome destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple.

 

[Grailhunter]

No - Peter set the parameters (v .7-11).

Nope Peter is not in charge so he did not set the parameters
James set the parameters and the conclusion
19 Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from ]things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since [k]he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

This is a blsatant LIE, as I ashowed you in verses 7-11.
Ot was Peter who spoke FIRST.

Not only is Peter not listed among the leading men....he is not listed anywhere in the Bible as a leader or among the leading men.

As for James being the "leader" of the Apostles - show me the Chapter and Verse that makes this claim.

As we have went over before no one is called the leader just the leading men are listed here.
It is here that proves that James was in charge.

You see - this is where yout false doctriine of Sola Scriptura kicks you in the behind . . .

I do not have to worry about it.....it is an easy debate....Here the leading men are listed.....and Peter is not listed and Peter is not specifically listed as such anywhere in the Bible.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Nope Peter is not in charge so he did not set the parameters
James set the parameters and the conclusion
19 Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from ]things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since [k]he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”


Not only is Peter not listed among the leading men....he is not listed anywhere in the Bible as a leader or among the leading men.


As we have went over before no one is called the leader just the leading men are listed here.
It is here that proves that James was in charge.


I do not have to worry about it.....it is an easy debate....Here the leading men are listed.....and Peter is not listed and Peter is not specifically listed as such anywhere in the Bible.

Nope Peter is not in charge so he did not set the parameters
James set the parameters and the conclusion
19 Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from ]things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since [k]he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

Not only is Peter not listed among the leading men....he is not listed anywhere in the Bible as a leader or among the leading men.

As we have went over before no one is called the leader just the leading men are listed here. It is here that proves that James was in charge.

I do not have to worry about it.....it is an easy debate....Here the leading men are listed.....and Peter is not listed and Peter is not specifically listed as such anywhere in the Bible.

Sooooo, let me get this straight –
NOBODY is listed as the “leader” – and this proves that James was in charge??
What kind of idiocy is that??

You say that Peter is NOT listed among the leading men at the Council – yet, we read that HE spoke FIRST.

You claim that James set the parameters for the decision and the letter – but it was Peter who did before James ever opened his mouth.

You are FUL of denials – yet I have come equipped with the Scriptural truth that have destroyed your arguments t EVERY turn.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Such ignorance.
Time for a Bible Lesson . . .