What is the one true Church?

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Webers_Home

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Are you two separate and distinct beings?
Do you have multiple names, titles, descriptions, identities?
Does multiple names, titles, descriptions, identities, make you two separate and
distinct beings?

I am a creature of design, and my design has limits. Those limits allow me
to exist as only one distinct being at a time.

However, the Word of John 1:1 is a divine being capable of creating things
ex nihilo--out of nothing. In my estimation, someone with that ability is easily
capable of constructing a man to be himself down here in the world as a human
being subject to the same design limits as everybody else.

* Christianity is basically a religion of the supernatural to which common
sense, reason, logic, and the laws of nature often do not apply.
_
 
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Taken

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However, the Word of John 1:1 is a divine being capable of creating things
ex nihilo--out of nothing.

I would disagree.
God is His own Councilor, amongst:
* His WORD, His WILL, His POWER.
All in complete Agreement.
* AKA= Word Lord, Will God, Power Almighty.
* ”THEY together ONE, who Create, Make, Work, Give, Take.

In my estimation, someone with that ability is easily
capable of constructing a man to be himself down here in the world as a human
being subject to the same design limits as everybody else.

Even Celestial created angelic spirit beings HAVE the Power:
* To take on the LIKENESS and APPEAR as Human men.
* To enter a man and take over his Body.
* To deceitfully trick, confuse, influence men to their detriment.

** Their Power is Limited BY what Power Gods ALLOWS them to Have, AND for how long.

*** And HOW MUCH MORE Powerful is the Lord God Almighty, WHO is He WHO gives and takes ... Life and Power and Authority?

* Christianity is basically a religion of the supernatural to which common
sense, reason, logic, and the laws of nature often do not apply.
_

Agree.

God Bless,
Taken
 

BreadOfLife

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I am aware you rely on your Carnal Minded understanding for “perceiving” an understanding.
When Jesus was Manifested, He fulfilled Gods Promise for men to SEE.
Right - but the Father and the Holy Spirit are NOT seen.
This is
Bible 101 . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Mentioning a Scripture that has nothing to do with proving your claims, is irrelevant.

No, I do not lie. And your “anti-Catholic” whining is laughable.
Scripture itself and myself are concerned with “anti-Christs”...

You should know, (by your Catholic Texts)... anti-Christs” are they which elevate spirits and human (male or female) equal with :( or higher than Christ.
And WHO you think taught YOU and the rest of the world abbout that?
And WHERE did you get your NT Canon of Scripture?

Answer to BOTH:
The Catholic Church.

PS - you STILL haven't told me where you got your 39-Book OT Canon - as oppposed to the 46-Book Catholic Canon that Jesus and the NT wroters studird from
Do you even have the foggiest idea??
 

Webers_Home

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Even Celestial created angelic spirit beings HAVE the Power:
* To take on the LIKENESS and APPEAR as Human men.

Avatars are not real people. At most they're a sophisticated disguise.

The Word's alter ego Jesus isn't an avatar: he's Abraham's and David's
biological descendant.
_
 

Taken

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And WHO you think taught YOU and the rest of the world abbout that?
And WHERE did you get your NT Canon of Scripture?

Answer to BOTH:
The Catholic Church.

PS - you STILL haven't told me where you got your 39-Book OT Canon - as oppposed to the 46-Book Catholic Canon that Jesus and the NT wroters studird from
Do you even have the foggiest idea??

Hebrew scribes And Hebrew Scroll recorders.
Jewish scribes And Jewish Scroll recorders.
 

Taken

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Avatars are not real people. At most they're a sophisticated disguise.

The Word's alter ego Jesus isn't an avatar: he's Abraham's and David's
biological descendant.
_

Avatar’s irrelevant.

David is a biological descendant of Abraham.

Jesus is not a biological descendant of any terrestrial man.
 

BreadOfLife

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Hebrew scribes And Hebrew Scroll recorders.
Jewish scribes And Jewish Scroll recorders.
Time for a History Lesson . . .

After the destruction of Jerusalem, a group of Rabbis established a rabbinical school in the Jewish city of at Jabneh (or Jamnia). It became center for Jewish political and religious political thought. Because the Temple had been destroyed in 70 AD – this school led by Rabbi Akiba ben Joseph (A.D. 37-137) redefined certain aspects of Judaism until the Temple could be restored.

One of the things discussed was use of the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint) by early Christians.

They decided to eject 7 Books (and portions of Esther and Daniel) that they felt were “uninspired”. They provided a new Greek translation because the early Christians were converting the Jews using the Septuagint, which was compiled about 200 years before the birth of Christ. According to historical sources, the rabbinical gathering at Jabneh was not even an "official" council with binding authority to make such a decision. It can be clearly shown that Jesus and the Apostles studied and quoted from these 7 Books. In the New Testament, we see almost 200 references to them.

The main advocate for removing the 7 Deuterocanonical Books was Rabbi Akiba, who was also known for proclaiming that a man named Simon Bar Kokhba was the “real” Messiah during the 2nd Jewish Revolt (circa 132 AD). It was during THIS time that the Jewish Canon had still been an OPEN Canon during the life of Christ was closed.

So, the Protestant Fathers chose to go with a POST-Christ, POST-Temple Canon of Scripture that was declared by a FALSE Prophet (Akiva) who proclaimed a FALSE “Christ” (Kokhba).

This is who Protestants have chosen to follow instead of Christ’s Church, on whom He bestowed supreme earthly Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

Luther also had problems with many New Testament Books, which he sought to remove. The Book of Hebrews, the Epistles of James and Jude and the Book of Revelation were ALL on the chopping block. He referred to the Epistle of James as the “Epistle of Straw” because it stressed the importance of works, which he rejected. If it had NOT been for the urging of his contemporaries – men like Philip Melanchton – Protestant Bibles would have been MUCH thinner.
 

BreadOfLife

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Avatar’s irrelevant.

David is a biological descendant of Abraham.

Jesus is not a biological descendant of any terrestrial man.
WRONG.

The man Jesus os a product of the Holy Spirit having overshadowed His biological mother Mary (Luke 1:35), a descendant of
Abraham.
 

Webers_Home

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Jesus is not a biological descendant of any terrestrial man.

"The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David" (Luke 1:30-33)

Before Jesus could be considered for David's throne, he first had to be
among David's biological descendants; no exceptions.

Ps 89:35-36 . . Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto
David. His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.

Ps 132:11 . .The Lord has sworn in truth unto David; and He will not turn
from it: "Of the fruit of your body will I set upon your throne"

The New Testament verifies that Jesus satisfies the biological requirement.

Acts 2:29-30 . . Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the
patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us
unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn
with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he
would raise up Christ to sit on his throne.

Rom 1:1-3 . . Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David
according to the flesh

The Greek word for "seed" is a mite ambiguous because it can refer to
spiritual progeny as well as to biological progeny; for example:

Gal 3:29 . . If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed.

Abraham's seed obviously refers to spiritual progeny; whereas David's seed
refers to biological progeny because his is 1) the fruit of his body and 2) of
his loins according to the flesh.
_
 
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Taken

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Time for a History Lesson . . .
History
Hebrew scribes wrote, Hebrew recorders wrote on Scrolls.
Jewish scribes wrote, Jewish recorders wrote on Scrolls.
Hebrews, Tribes of Israel, Jews, Gentiles have all made copies.

No I do not accredit a group calling themselves Catholic with Writing Scripture.
 

Taken

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"The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David" (Luke 1:30-33)

Before Jesus could be considered for David's throne, he first had to be
among David's biological descendants; no exceptions.

Ps 89:35-36 . . Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto
David. His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.

Ps 132:11 . .The Lord has sworn in truth unto David; and He will not turn
from it: "Of the fruit of your body will I set upon your throne"

The New Testament verifies that Jesus satisfies the biological requirement.

Acts 2:29-30 . . Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the
patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us
unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn
with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he
would raise up Christ to sit on his throne.

Rom 1:1-3 . . Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David
according to the flesh

The Greek word for "seed" is a mite ambiguous because it can refer to
spiritual progeny as well as to biological progeny; for example:

Gal 3:29 . . If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed.

Abraham's seed obviously refers to spiritual progeny; whereas David's seed
refers to biological progeny because his is 1) the fruit of his body and 2) of
his loins according to the flesh.
_
Do you believe Jesus is a human?
Or
Do you believe Jesus is God?
 

Taken

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WRONG.

The man Jesus os a product of the Holy Spirit having overshadowed His biological mother Mary (Luke 1:35), a descendant of
Abraham.

Product...His biological mother...
Sharing your Carnal Minded understanding about a Spiritual topic. :rolleyes:
 

Grailhunter

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Time for a History Lesson . . .

After the destruction of Jerusalem, a group of Rabbis established a rabbinical school in the Jewish city of at Jabneh (or Jamnia). It became center for Jewish political and religious political thought. Because the Temple had been destroyed in 70 AD – this school led by Rabbi Akiba ben Joseph (A.D. 37-137) redefined certain aspects of Judaism until the Temple could be restored.

One of the things discussed was use of the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint) by early Christians.

They decided to eject 7 Books (and portions of Esther and Daniel) that they felt were “uninspired”. They provided a new Greek translation because the early Christians were converting the Jews using the Septuagint, which was compiled about 200 years before the birth of Christ. According to historical sources, the rabbinical gathering at Jabneh was not even an "official" council with binding authority to make such a decision. It can be clearly shown that Jesus and the Apostles studied and quoted from these 7 Books. In the New Testament, we see almost 200 references to them.

The main advocate for removing the 7 Deuterocanonical Books was Rabbi Akiba, who was also known for proclaiming that a man named Simon Bar Kokhba was the “real” Messiah during the 2nd Jewish Revolt (circa 132 AD). It was during THIS time that the Jewish Canon had still been an OPEN Canon during the life of Christ was closed.

So, the Protestant Fathers chose to go with a POST-Christ, POST-Temple Canon of Scripture that was declared by a FALSE Prophet (Akiva) who proclaimed a FALSE “Christ” (Kokhba).

This is who Protestants have chosen to follow instead of Christ’s Church, on whom He bestowed supreme earthly Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

Luther also had problems with many New Testament Books, which he sought to remove. The Book of Hebrews, the Epistles of James and Jude and the Book of Revelation were ALL on the chopping block. He referred to the Epistle of James as the “Epistle of Straw” because it stressed the importance of works, which he rejected. If it had NOT been for the urging of his contemporaries – men like Philip Melanchton – Protestant Bibles would have been MUCH thinner.
Good history lesson.
I agree with everything except.....This is who Protestants have chosen to follow instead of Christ’s Church, on whom He bestowed supreme earthly Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

There is a little more detail....important details.
The succession of the Catholic Church from Peter is not false but does not tell the whole story.
I would say that more correctly they are a succession of Peter and Paul.
And this is why I say that.
The Gospel scriptures you have provide are about Yeshua talking to His Apostles. Note that they still considered themselves Jewish. The term Christian does not appear until later...maybe ten or 15 years later....so they are not talking about Christianity. Somewhere along the line Christ's ministry is coined "the Way" meaning the way or path to heaven or even the way of life....speculation.

So the Way was Jewish....the Apostles were Jewish-Christians....they were out to convert Jews, they had no interest in converting Pagans.
Christ does not seem to give the Pagans much interest either. But some scholars refer to Christ as the secret Messiah. They seem to think He was running another ministry for the Pagans behind the scenes. I agree that it is possible but not well spelled out in the Gospels. I believe the ministry was correctly offered to the Jews first.....but because of His connection to Paul and Peter, I believe it was Yeshua's intent all along to offer salvation to the Pagans. The Bible refers to these converted Pagans as Gentiles.

But the Jews reject Christ and Christ commissions Paul to start His ministry which butted head with the Jewish-Christians until they had the meeting in Jerusalem with James....who at that time was the leader of the Jewish Christians. After this Meeting, James issues a letter outlining the acceptance of Gentile Christians. But the effect of this meeting was that the Gentiles-Christians were more or less a separate group that did not practice Christianity the same way as the Jewish Christians. I could go into the differences but it would be a lot of information. The Protestants miss, this and it is one of the reasons they try to mingle Judaism with Christianity.

By the end of the first century most of the Jewish-Christians have been killed off and the Gentiles took the reins of the Church. Writings of early Christianity that have survived are from Gentile-Christians....disciples of Paul and of Peter who joined Paul in his ministry. This is actually the "Church" that the Catholics descend from. The Bishops that attended the ecumenical councils were Gentile-Christians.

Of course this is a very abbreviated account.
 
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BreadOfLife

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History
Hebrew scribes wrote, Hebrew recorders wrote on Scrolls.
Jewish scribes wrote, Jewish recorders wrote on Scrolls.
Hebrews, Tribes of Israel, Jews, Gentiles have all made copies.

No I do not accredit a group calling themselves Catholic with Writing Scripture.
Sooo, wjhy do you adhere to an POST-Christ, POST-Termple editend OT Canon of Scripture that had 7 Books removed from it, along with portions of Daniel and Esther?

Why not stick with the original 46-Book Canon that Jesus and the NT writers studied from and os referenced almost 200 times in the New Testament??
 

BreadOfLife

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Good history lesson.
I agree with everything except.....This is who Protestants have chosen to follow instead of Christ’s Church, on whom He bestowed supreme earthly Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

There is a little more detail....important details.
The succession of the Catholic Church from Peter is not false but does not tell the whole story.
I would say that more correctly they are a succession of Peter and Paul.
And this is why I say that.
The Gospel scriptures you have provide are about Yeshua talking to His Apostles. Note that they still considered themselves Jewish. The term Christian does not appear until later...maybe ten or 15 years later....so they are not talking about Christianity. Somewhere along the line Christ's ministry is coined "the Way" meaning the way or path to heaven or even the way of life....speculation.

So the Way was Jewish....the Apostles were Jewish-Christians....they were out to convert Jews, they had no interest in converting Pagans.
Christ does not seem to give the Pagans much interest either. But some scholars refer to Christ as the secret Messiah. They seem to think He was running another ministry for the Pagans behind the scenes. I agree that it is possible but not well spelled out in the Gospels. I believe the ministry was correctly offered to the Jews first.....but because of His connection to Paul and Peter, I believe it was Yeshua's intent all along to offer salvation to the Pagans. The Bible refers to these converted Pagans as Gentiles.

But the Jews reject Christ and Christ commissions Paul to start His ministry which butted head with the Jewish-Christians until they had the meeting in Jerusalem with James....who at that time was the leader of the Jewish Christians. After this Meeting, James issues a letter outlining the acceptance of Gentile Christians. But the effect of this meeting was that the Gentiles-Christians were more or less a separate group that did not practice Christianity the same way as the Jewish Christians. I could go into the differences but it would be a lot of information. The Protestants miss, this and it is one of the reasons they try to mingle Judaism with Christianity.

By the end of the first century most of the Jewish-Christians have been killed off and the Gentiles took the reins of the Church. Writings of early Christianity that have survived are from Gentile-Christians....disciples of Paul and of Peter who joined Paul in his ministry. This is actually the "Church" that the Catholics descend from. The Bishops that attended the ecumenical councils were Gentile-Christians.

Of course this is a very abbreviated account.
Not exactly.

They were first called "Christians" in Antioch- according to Acts 11:25.
A full chapter earlier
, however, we see the convesion of the pagab Gentile Cornelius and his household.

The Jewish Chriatians, while they did contonie to observe the Sabbath, we see Peter's visioon regarding the dietary redttrictions being relaxed iin tha SAME chapter - PRIOR to them being called "Christians" in Antioch.

At the Councul of Jerusalem (Acts 15), the Apostles made ut crystal-clear that the Jewish Law was NOT binding on anybody. Thos wasn't about the Jewish christians "dying off" anbd leaving Gentiles in their wake. It was a natural progression because there are far more Genbtiles in the world than Jews.

Finally - to say to say that the Catholic Church was just a progression of Peter and Paul is to NOT unserstand the Early Church - who saw that the Church in Rome was the crown jewel because of its location. Rome was absolutely the CENTER of the world in the first century, and the Church they p[lanted there was the preeminent Church in the world, as atrtested to by the Early Church Fathers . . .


Ignatius of Antioch
You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, but others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus
With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree
, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).

Clement of Alexandria
The blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples,
for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? "Behold, we have left all and have followed you" [Matt. 19:2 7, Mark 10:28] (Who is the Rich Man That is Saved? 21:3-5 [A.D. 200]).

Letter of Clement to James
Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first-fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D, 221]).

Cyprian
With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Epistle to Cornelius [Bishop of Rome] 59:14 [A.D. 252]).


Optatus
In the city of Rome the Episcopal chair was given first to Peter
, the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head — that is why he is also called Cephas — of all the apostles, the one chair in which unity is maintained by all. (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [circa A.D. 367]).
 

Taken

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Sooo, wjhy do you adhere to an POST-Christ, POST-Termple editend OT Canon of Scripture that had 7 Books removed from it, along with portions of Daniel and Esther?

Soooooooo (lol) Why bother telling me what I do, When you do not know what I do?


Why not stick with the original 46-Book Canon that Jesus and the NT writers studied from and os referenced almost 200 times in the New Testament??

How do you know what I study?