Because when someone was born has nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ.
What is the initial evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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What do you make of this?
John 3:5 NIV
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God
unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
/
Don't forget vs 3 also. Man must be born again or they cannot see (know) the Kingdom of God.
John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
So man must be born again, and born of water and the Spirit. Bearing in mind vs 3 that emphasizes being "born again", shall we assume vs 5 is speaking of natural water how man is physically born? Or should the water for being born again, not physical water, but the pure water of the Word and Spirit? Doesn't Scripture tell us that it is the Spirit that gives life? And the life the Spirit gives both physical life as well as spiritual life? That means being born again comes when we hear the Gospel (pure water of life) through the power of the Holy Spirit. The evidence, even the initial evidence of baptism with the Holy Spirit was manifested by believing and a repentant heart (like being cut to the heart).
Mostly just pushing buttons feeling as though I've beat this horse to death!
Why would we need to be informed that a natural birth is required to enter the kingdom of God?
Isn't that a given?
John 3:5 NIV
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God
unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
/
My thinking exactly! Christ cannot be saying we have to be physically alive through natural birth to be born again of the Spirit, because as you've pointed out that is absurd!
Yes, that doesn't make sense. At least in isolation. (verse five alone)
That next question would be: what does it mean then?
Upon checking the context, I tend to agree with @Peterlag
Unless you are seeing something I am not.
Verse six is key.
It seems to relate "born of water" as being "Flesh gives birth to flesh".
John 3:5-7 NIV
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter
the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[a] gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[b] must be born again.’
/
You do seem to assume you are the only player here. I believe the cosmos is a free democracy whereby we are truly blessed or cursed by how we align ourselves in the fight between two cosmic kingdoms. We either share in Christ's victory or we share in Satan's defeat. But we are in either case always only the secondary participants and never the main players.
It is not a given that our bodies are mostly water. There are other bodies besides humans. We are not the only players on the earth.
That could certainly be the proper understanding of the passage. But I tend to look at being born again as a strictly spiritual phenomenon that is uniquely distinct from physical birth. So, I tend to think being born of water and the Spirit is a supernatural rather than a natural event. It seems that Christ does away with the belief that water represents being born of the flesh when Nicodemus asks Christ, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" That's why Christ tells him flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. Christ also tells Nicodemus it is not earthly things He is speaking of, but heavenly things. Things that pertain to believing for eternal life. (Jo 3:15-18)
John 3:12 (KJV) If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Our flesh is not born again, it is our spirit, that was spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins" that must be born again. And this new spiritual birth is not of this earth, not of flesh, but is of His Spirit in us. And the way to partake of the new birth through Christ's Spirit comes to man who hears the Gospel (pure water of life), and by grace through faith in the power of the Holy Spirit man believes, repents and turns to Christ for eternal life.
If by water you mean Holy Spirit baptism that comes by hearing the Gospel that is the living water of life.
Baptism through physical water is an ordinance that Christ said should come after a man/woman has been taught/discipled. So, all who profess faith in Christ (a disciple) are called to be baptized in physical water in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Not to be saved, but to be separated from the world, when we profess faith in Christ, we are saying we are no longer of this world, but have come out of it. Living in the world, but no longer of the world. Of course we cannot forget the significance of the ordinance as symbolizing being buried with Christ in death, and risen with Him for eternal life. The water baptism symbolizes and points us to the baptism of the Holy Spirit through the living water of the Word (Gospel) proclaimed.
Matthew 28:19-20 (KJV) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Godslittleservant
Active Member
This is a false statement and not what the bible records on the teaching of the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ (water baptism) it is a man made doctrine contrary to the biblical teaching on the subject.
Prove what you allege from the Word of God! You're clinging to an unbiblical doctrine and refuse to be corrected no matter how many verses prove you are in error.
Nowhere does the Bible say we MUST be baptized in physical water to be saved!
Godslittleservant
Active Member
It is because you refuse to take the bible at its word. Baptism for the remission of sin was preached from John the baptist up to and following the cross. After the cross it was baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin and also to give the indwelling spirit. Jesus said "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
Your words
"You're clinging to an unbiblical doctrine and refuse to be corrected no matter how many verses prove you are in error." applies to you for scripture does state exactly what you deny it is not me for I am quoting scripture word for word you are the one refusing the word as written.
Not only does it say that it is where the spirit is given in Acts 2:38 it is confirmed by Paul in acts 19 :1-5 but again even though the bible proves it is correctly written in Acts 2:38 you still refuse to take the word as written and cling to your preconceived ideals. It is not me that proved you wrong but the word of God that you reject.
Your words
"You're clinging to an unbiblical doctrine and refuse to be corrected no matter how many verses prove you are in error." applies to you for scripture does state exactly what you deny it is not me for I am quoting scripture word for word you are the one refusing the word as written.
Not only does it say that it is where the spirit is given in Acts 2:38 it is confirmed by Paul in acts 19 :1-5 but again even though the bible proves it is correctly written in Acts 2:38 you still refuse to take the word as written and cling to your preconceived ideals. It is not me that proved you wrong but the word of God that you reject.
Godslittleservant
Active Member
Your insistence that the indwelling spirit happened in verse 6 of Acts 19 is not true the scripture makes it clear that the indwelling spirit comes through the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ it is the difference in the baptism of John and the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. The laying on of hands is for witness per Mark 16:17-20 and Acts 1:8 you have to divide the word according to what is recorded.
There is a crucial rule that must not be ignored if we desire to rightly understand biblical doctrine. That is our understanding MUST NEVER FORCE CONTRADICTIONS INTO THE WORD OF GOD! Contradiction forced into the Word of God means our understanding is not biblical, because God does not contradict Himself. If you believe we must be baptized in water to be saved, then you MUST reconcile this belief with verses that we have eternal life through Christ when we believe. Can you do that? I don't believe you can, and it is for this reason many years ago I realized water baptism is NOT for eternal life (salvation), but is an ordinance given us by Christ before He departed this earth.
How can the verses you quote above be interpreted so that they do not force contradiction into the Word of God?
Godslittleservant
Active Member
Yes I can show how to believe and baptism is the same you just refuse to see it. In Acts 19:1-5
Acts 19:1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples.
Acts 19:2 He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
Acts 19:3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism."
Acts 19:4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."
Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Now lets pat close attention to what Paul is saying
Acts 19:2 He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." He asked if they had gotten the holy spirit when they HAD BELIEVED How does the bible say you get the spirit Acts 2:38 it is through the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ as Paul is going to make clear They said no they had not heard the complete gospel therefore they did not know about receiving the spirit.
Acts 19:3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." see Paul asked them if you had not heard then what were you baptized into? see baptism is where Paul new that they would have gotten the indwelling spirit in the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ but they told him they were baptized with Johns baptism and we know that it cannot give the spirit because at that time Christ had yet to go to the cross.
Acts 19:4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." See here is the proof Johns baptism was for the remission of sin as will be the baptism that Jesus will baptize with but it cannot give the indwelling spirit for Jesus has not gone to the cross it only points to Jesus completion of the cross and then the baptism that Jesus will baptize will give the indwelling spirit just as told in Acts 2:38
Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. So Paul baptized them in the name of Jesus Christ so there sins could be remitted and they could receive the indwelling spirit. Just as we are told in Acts 2:38 here is scripture backing scripture and we must read what is recorded.
Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying. Now that Paul has corrected their problem and has gotten them born again Per Romans 6:3ff Acts 2:38 Acts 19:1-5
He lays hand on them to give them the power to witness. Why/ He has just planted the new church in Ephesus and needs to go plant more churches so he gives them the power of witness to grow the church he just planted Mark 16:17-20 Acts 1:8
So see when Paul says they believed they had been baptized in this case it was not the correct baptism but Paul corrected it so to believe means to believe all that is taught including the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ just as it is recorded in Acts 21:38. That is where the complete gospel was preached for the first time following the cross and where God started adding to the church just as recorded not my words but the words God gave his Apostles to write so that I might believe.
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