What is Predetermined?

[Reformedguy]

@Reformedguy Scripture is full of the sovereignty of God...

Amen

 

[ScottA]

The only thing that is predetermined is what, and the only thing predetermined for who is what will happen to the sinner and the righteous:

The sinner will not stand in the congregation of the righteous, nor have boldness in the day of judgment:

Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Not the ungodly sinners, that's for sure. And there is no godly sinner at all.

Many posts have been made since I looked on here, but if I were seeing this for the first time...I would think you mean that no sinner was even forgiven.

Of course that is not the end of the matter.

 

[farouk]

Amen

Indeed...

 

[robert derrick]

Many posts have been made since I looked on here, but if I were seeing this for the first time...I would think you mean that no sinner was even forgiven.

Of course that is not the end of the matter.

If you say that is what Scripture says, then it is obviously because you believe something different, and don't like it when Scripture says differently than you.

The problem OSAS has is one of no honesty. They cannot help themselves but to twist everything to their liking, whether to excuse their open hypocrisy, or to accuse Scripture of saying something it never said.

They are a perfect example of ever learning and never able to come to the truth.

It's the only thing perfect about them.

 

[ScottA]

If you say that is what Scripture says, then it is obviously because you believe something different, and don't like it when Scripture says differently than you.

The problem OSAS has is one of no honesty. They cannot help themselves but to twist everything to their liking, whether to excuse their open hypocrisy, or to accuse Scripture of saying something it never said.

They are a perfect example of ever learning and never able to come to the truth.

It's the only thing perfect about them.

I was not commenting on the scriptures, but what you yourself posted, condemning sinners, but saying nothing of forgiveness.

But I can see that you have a prejudice that has blinded you from my very simple post and observation.

Your pet peeve. Whatever.

 

[robert derrick]

So...I can't tell whether you actually agree or disagree. You seem to want to object and ask why, apparently missing the very things that I gave already to support what I said. Then you go on to elaborate on the idea that I gave of pressing on, as if to agree.

Nonetheless, what I said was not "philosophic" as you say, but scriptural and biblical, and I even quoted some. But the premise is that God more than treats us as children, but even calls us "little children", and that rather, is the nature of Paul's explanation.

As for the idea of God not being "pre" anything-- I did not say that He hasn't spelled it out to us in a way that children would understand it, as over time with repetitions, over weeks and months and years-- I did say that exactly. But I also said that God Himself does not exist in that child-like creation where days turn into years and years into millennia, but rather that He "is the same yesterday, today, and forever." And now I am quoting Him again, and repeating myself, and Him.

So...again, which is it? Do you actually agree with this biblical explanation and the reality of what is only explained as predestination, as to children, just as He has...or not?


As for Calvin, if he was not against us, he is for us.

So...again, which is it? Do you actually agree with this biblical explanation and the reality of what is only explained as predestination, as to children, just as He has...or not?

And so you do not address my main objection, which is:

...But God also permits one not to mature. But we are rather, to "Press on."

My main objection to your OSAS teaching of unconditionally secured salvation is saying that the first principle of repenting from dead works, is allowed to be skipped by them who do not do so, and so God accepts some remaining in perpetual babyhood during this life.

Scripture reference to children and little children is not that of understanding and righteous living, but of affection.

The least of the little children in Christ Jesus are answering the high calling of God to be saints, which does not begin until obeying the command to repent of all sins.

Once such dead works are repented of, not still repenting of, then and only then are repented sins left behind to go on to the perfecting the little saints in Christ Jesus: holy, righteous, and blameless living in this present evil world.

And he even goes on, seemingly against Christ (but for Christ), to say,

I find your lofty manner of unscriptural reasoning to be sophistic, not doctrinal.

 

[robert derrick]

Not to highjack this thread, but I was studying a parable and noticed some questions coming up that related to this topic. If anyone wishes to respond, they are free to.

Blessings,
- H

The Parable Of The Wedding Banquet

Now we come to the crux of the matter: Why will those with no wedding garments be cast into the outer darkness and not attend the banquet? In verse 14, He states that it will be because "many are called, but few are chosen."

Excellent!

The argument is that for God to have used His omnipotence, which He could if He so chose, to predetermine who would be saved, and who would not, then it could not include free will choice to believe or not; otherwise, His omnipotent Sovereign will of predetermining 'who' is made impotent by any choosing otherwise.

And since predestination is also precalled, then if Calvinish predestinators (Calvinators) say all predestined will choose freely by faith, in order to avoid impotency of God, then they must also say all precalled will answer that call freely by faith.

And yet Jesus says that all called, and so precalled, will not all be chosen, because all will not choose to believe Him!

Good job.

I.e. since all called and chosen are precalled and chosen, then to keep predertimned omnipotence, the Scripture ought read:

"Many are called, and many are chosen. Or many are precalled and the same many are chosen."

Many are called but few are chosen destroys any argument of a predestined and precalled Sovereign will of God, because He is saying Himself that He cannot fulfill His predetermined and precalled will for who, because He makes Himself impotent in the face them that choose to reject His calling.

And so, the predetermined will of what is concluded: the foolishness of preaching will save them that believe, not a predestined chose will of God beforehand.

To the predestinators of Calvin, God choosing by the foolishness of preaching to call whosoever after being conceived into the womb, is foolishness indeed.

After all, the carnal mind says, why not avoid all the messiness of free will of man, and just by omnipotent power predetermine who would an dwho would not?

Because God is love, and love commands love from the heart by free will of choice, that's way.

Predeterminators have no vision of God's love, because all they have is a vision of themselves being predetermined, precalled, and prechosen without any responsibility whatsoever to love God, even as He first loved us, when He made us with free will to choose.

 

[Stumpmaster]

You just take it all out of what it is really saying. His will is what is occurring. he knew some would follow his son. He did not know them back then. He does now. God predestined his will to occur. Do not forget free will, that alone proves your error in thinking. It would not be free will if one didnt have a chance as your scenario suggests. Jesus sacrafice was for all to come to repentence. Not just for who was predestined.

Everyone is predestined to have freewill in some things. I didn't choose whether or not to be born and nor did I choose my genetic composition, so no freewill there.

Psa 139:13-16 For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb. (14) I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well. (15) My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. (16) Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.

 

[Renniks]

Lust is not overcome, it is cut out by the power of the Spirit.

When the heart is purified of lust, then all sin is overcome.

You didn't answer. Nice evasion.

 

[Renniks]

It is not confusing to you. It is simply different from some false teaching you have recieved.

Your confusion is that you cannot refute it, but still don't want to accept it.

And no one is righteous and pure as He is righteous and pure in this life, except the elect people of God.

It is confusing because you keep contradicting yourself.

 

[Renniks]

I don't recall saying anything about open sinning and no shame. And of course I don't believe in predeterminism.

I know, which is why I said so from the beginning.

I have shown how your mind has been wrongly affected by the erroneous teachings of modern OSAS, even though you have not given yourself to their open hypocrisy.

By all means repent of whatever sins you are aware of, but don't go around believing you have reached some state of sinlessness in this life.

And I don't.

As I said, you are still trying to equate righteous living, even as He is righteous, with the perfection that will be obtained in the resurrection of the sinless spiritual body.

It has been so deeply buried in you to think that way, that you can't even comprehend being corrected away from it.

That only brings pride, which all sin springs from.

Tell that to Paul and Peter:

Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.

And all sin springs from lust, of which pride is also sprung from.

You keep talking carnal minded things, rather than Scripture, because you have been taught carnal minded rationalizations rather than Scripture.

The first recorded sin in Scripture was not pride in Lucifer, but iniquity found in him: the iniquity of thinking to openly disobey Him.

He had no time to be proud about it, because so soon as God saw it in Him, God cast him down like lightening.

It was pride. Satan wanted to be like God. Paul and Peter both were sinners. Paul acknowledged this in Romans.
"I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me."

He had sin after salvation.

Peter almost strayed into the false teaching of the Judaizers. Surely that wasn't " blameless". He had to be reprimanded.

 

[Keiw]

Everyone is predestined to have freewill in some things. I didn't choose whether or not to be born and nor did I choose my genetic composition, so no freewill there.

Psa 139:13-16 For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb. (14) I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well. (15) My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. (16) Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.

So then in your scenario. Jesus didnt die for all to have a chance--Not what the bible teaches. Romans 2 blows your thinking away.

 

[robert derrick]

Many posts have been made since I looked on here, but if I were seeing this for the first time...I would think you mean that no sinner was even forgiven.

Of course that is not the end of the matter.

Perhaps you mean no ungodly sinning sinner at this time is forgiven. True.

Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

All ungodly sinners that repent and believe the gospel to obey Jesus from the heart, are forgiven of all past sins and are no more ungodly sinners, because they are created new creatures in Christ: They are no righteous souls washed clean in the blood of the Lamb.

No more souls with sin, and so no more judgement against sins, but rather souls living and clean even as the first Adam was made, and as the Second Adam coming into the world.

Unrepentant ungodly sinning sinners shall not stand in the congregation of the righteous that are no more sinners, but saints in Christ.

Simple.

 

[robert derrick]

You didn't answer. Nice evasion.

I showed by Scripture how all committed sins are by lust in the heart, not just 'from the mind'.

You refuse the correction.

 

[robert derrick]

It is confusing because you keep contradicting yourself.

You refuse to show how, because you refuse the teaching you don't personally like.

 

[robert derrick]

It was pride. Satan wanted to be like God. Paul and Peter both were sinners. Paul acknowledged this in Romans.
"I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me."

He had sin after salvation.

Peter almost strayed into the false teaching of the Judaizers. Surely that wasn't " blameless". He had to be reprimanded.

You say pride, but you show no Scripture for it, and so it is just your own mind.

And you say it is pride, so that you can then falsely accuse the righteous of pride, since your mind is already defiled and so must judge everyone as yourself: Defiled.

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Paul and Peter both were sinners.

Scripture showed Peter had sinned, but he did not continue therein once judged of God for it: It is possible for saints to sin in this life, and if, not when, they do sin, they repent and by grace and help of God return to it no more.

The hypocrite believes in sinning more and celebrate a filthy grace to cover them up beforehand.

Since you want to believe the strong delusion of OSAS that the natural state of every Christian is double minded wretchedness in this world, then so be it. That's your choice, but you must lie against scriptures to do so:

Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

He also shall be my salvation: for an hypocrite shall not come before him.

 

[robert derrick]

I was not commenting on the scriptures, but what you yourself posted, condemning sinners, but saying nothing of forgiveness.

But I can see that you have a prejudice that has blinded you from my very simple post and observation.

Your pet peeve. Whatever.

If the Scripture speaks of ungodly sinners as such, 'saying nothing of forgiveness', then your accusation of prejudice is against Scripture.

 

[robert derrick]

Why is it that God by omnipotence chose beforehand who would believe Him and be forever saved, but did not choose by omnipotence beforehand for them also to obey Him?

They are predestined to believe unto salvation, but not predestined to obey Him in salvation.

It's because the predestinators can lie to themselves and others about being prechosen to believe, because they do believe, but they can't lie to themselves nor to others about being prechosen to obey, because they do not obey and proudly declare it.

 

[Renniks]

I showed by Scripture how all committed sins are by lust in the heart, not just 'from the mind'.

You refuse the correction.

Are you sinless? Answer the question please.

 

[Renniks]

The hypocrite believes in sinning more and celebrate a filthy grace to cover them up beforehand.

Good thing I never claimed any such nonsense. I don't celebrate sin. You are arguing with someone else.