What is Predetermined?

[Oceanprayers]

Well, nice cherry picking but those verses don't say everything is predetermined.
If you believe your sin is predetermined, you would rightly rejoice in sinning because it would be God's will.
That's nonsense.

You were a sinner because it was God's plan from the beginning.

People read the Bible but they don't know what it's actually telling them .

 

[Keiw]

I think you're referring to what Jesus said in Matthew 7 and 24. As I said, we agree on what He said, of course, but you're not recognizing the fact that those who do persevere to the end are the ones whom God has given His Spirit and enabled to persevere to the end, by His power; by God’s power we are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time, and in this we rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you are grieved by various trials (1 Peter 1:5-6). So again, yes, what Jesus said is true, but the power to persevere is really of God, and that will not fail. Those who have the Spirit will persevere to the end. He ~ God ~ Who began a good work in any person will ~ will ~ bring it to completion at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6).


LOL! Okay, but there's only one Bible. :)


There are many don't believe in the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the triune God, yes, and that's unfortunate, because it's very wrong. But that doesn't disqualify them from being Christians. Same with quite a lot of other things.


Yes, but God will bring all things to Himself in the fullness of time.


Absolutely agree.


Well, yes and no. See above.


Right, but you shared them to the exclusion of other Bible truths. I know you didn't intend to do that, but, well, you did.


Man, that must have hurt! I mean to get kicked out of sights... people couldn't even see you anymore because you got kicked so hard? My goodness! :)

Grace and peace to you, Keiw.

I havent shared those teachings here yet. I will eventually.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

How can you say in one breath that you dont sin, yet at the same time, say that OSAS is false??
You still dont get predestination works.
Andddd you make it sound like works are necessary for salvation.
How can your theology be so wrong?? What denomination are you??

OSAS is up to you. Abiding in Jesus continuously is the only way that OSAS is valid. IOW we cannot quench the Spirit and go back to willful sinning and expect to remain on the path towards salvation, which is the prize at the end, not the beginning.

1 John 3:21-24
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

L, if you willfully sin believing that God has to put up with your rebellion, you're wrong. First He'll chastise you; but if don't repent and you remain in rebellion He will turn you over to perdition.

Hebrews 10:
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

37 “For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. (to the saving of the soul is looking to the future).

 

[Keiw]

OSAS is up to you. Abiding in Jesus continuously is the only way that OSAS is valid. IOW we cannot quench the Spirit and go back to willful sinning and expect to remain on the path towards salvation, which is the prize at the end, not the beginning.

1 John 3:21-24
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

L, if you willfully sin believing that God has to put up with your rebellion, you're wrong. First He'll chastise you; but if don't repent and you remain in rebellion He will turn you over to perdition.

Hebrews 10:
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

37 “For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. (to the saving of the soul is looking to the future).

None are predestined. God desires all to repent so he does not know who will choose that path. His will is what was predestined.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

None are predestined. God desires all to repent so he does not know who will choose that path. His will is what was predestined.

are you serious??? How can so many think God doesnt know everything that is going to happen?? Why do so many deny His omnipotence??

 

[1stCenturyLady]

are you serious??? How can so many think God doesnt know everything that is going to happen?? Why do so many deny His omnipotence??

Omnipotence is His power. You mean omniscience - all knowing. He is also omnipresent - is everywhere.

If you believe your sins are covered by Jesus blood so that the Father cannot see them. Think again. There is nothing hidden from His sight. That is why the TRUTH is that Jesus blood TAKES AWAY our sin in those who have become born again. They have been given a new nature that is divine, and our old nature, that you've been taught you will always have, He nails to His cross and kills it. Not everyone who claims to be a Christian are born again. (I wasn't for 30 years! But am now and have no desire to sin.) Actually, you deny the omnipotence of God every time you believe Jesus cannot take away your old nature, the source of your sin, and give you a new nature that cannot sin. Another lie you've been taught is that grace is unmerited favor, but it is the "divine power of God."

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Omnipotence is His power. You mean omniscience - all knowing. He is also omnipresent - is everywhere.

If you believe your sins are covered by Jesus blood so that the Father cannot see them. Think again. There is nothing hidden from His sight. That is why the TRUTH is that Jesus blood TAKES AWAY our sin in those who have become born again. They have been given a new nature that is divine, and our old nature, that you've been taught you will always have, He nails to His cross and kills it. Not everyone who claims to be a Christian are born again. (I wasn't for 30 years! But am now and have no desire to sin.) Actually, you deny the omnipotence of God every time you believe Jesus cannot take away your old nature, the source of your sin, and give you a new nature that cannot sin. Another lie you've been taught is that grace is unmerited favor, but it is the "divine power of God."

no one denies that Jesus can take away our old nature, whether He does or not is another story. If we are not of the elect, He wont. Just like with esau who sought repentance but couldnt find it. And yes, grace is unmerited, yet for those who are of the elect, it shows His glory to save the few.

 

[Keiw]

are you serious??? How can so many think God doesnt know everything that is going to happen?? Why do so many deny His omnipotence??

There isnt a single spot in the bible that says he is omnipotent. When satan entered before God concerning Job, God asked him where he came from. Why? If God is Omnipotent why did satan and the rebellion occur in Eden? And all this human suffering ever since? You really think God wants this system of things and couldnt fore see how to stop it? 2Peter 3:9--God desires all to repentence because he doesnt want any destroyed. If he already knew who would repent, the bible wouldnt teach that. The door is open to all. Jesus said FEW would find the road.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

There isnt a single spot in the bible that says he is omnipotent. When satan entered before God concerning Job, God asked him where he came from. Why? If God is Omnipotent why did satan and the rebellion occur in Eden? And all this human suffering ever since? You really think God wants this system of things and couldnt fore see how to stop it? 2Peter 3:9--God desires all to repentence because he doesnt want any destroyed. If he already knew who would repent, the bible wouldnt teach that. The door is open to all. Jesus said FEW would find the road.

and there it is…. Denying God and His greatness. I wondered how long till someone would do that, given the amount of horrendous theology on this forum. Well, seems like robert derrick and keiw are trying to out “heretic” each other.

 

[Stumpmaster]

When satan entered before God concerning Job, God asked him where he came from. Why?

It's a favourite ploy of courtroom lawyers, asking a question they already know the answer to. Then if a lie is told, BAM!!! . . . evidence is revealed.

 

[Oceanprayers]

OSAS is false. All who know Jesus know it. Here is his answer to that--Matthew 7:22-23--And Matthew 24:13-- He that has endured until is end will be saved-- See that will be saved. Endure till ones end doing what?( Matt 7:21)Living now to do Jesus Fathers will in this satan ruled system. Showing clearly one can fall, proving once saved always saved an untruthful teaching by blind guides. These-2Cor 11:12-15-- i say--Run from them.

Not true.
Jesus preached and died to seal the irrevocable guarantee of eternal salvation.

The faction making its way across the web, determined to enter Christian discussion sites and assail that fact refer to eternal salvation as OSAS. As if that is a misnomer. It isn't
They are.

Those faction members insist "OSAS" is a license to sin. That in reality Christians have to work to remain saved and not let themselves feel secure in Christ because they're intended to labor to be approved.

These are lies. The faction crew know this. They're not interested in what the bible actually teaches. Their motive is to cause division and insecurity in Christians. Especially new ones.

They're liars and they're damned.

Christians know Jesus because Jesus knows them. No one will take us from his hand. But boy are there demonic evil people bent on giving it their best shot in trying to lead us to think we can lose our salvation.

Why?
Because they have not one clue as to what salvation is.

Though they sure will know what eternal damnation feels like.

That's fair.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The answer is in the question: What is predetermined, not who... Omniscience foreknows who, predestination foreknows what, not who.

What is predestination? Is predestination biblical? | GotQuestions.org

God does not "Pre" anything. He is "the same yesterday, today, and forever."

"What is predetermined?" Everything. God is sovereign.

Proverbs 16:4 Jehovah hath made everything for its own end; Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Verse 33: The lot is cast into the lap;But the whole disposing thereof is of Jehovah.

It's a favourite ploy of courtroom lawyers, asking a question they already know the answer to. Then if a lie is told, BAM!!! . . . evidence is revealed.

If you are talking about 1 John 1:8 that is mankind BEFORE verse 9. I'm afraid you have believed what Calvin taught about John and Paul's words. Even if you think rationally without the guidance of the Spirit you can tell how silly his teachings are.

None are predestined. God desires all to repent so he does not know who will choose that path. His will is what was predestined.

Not to highjack this thread, but I was studying a parable and noticed some questions coming up that related to this topic. If anyone wishes to respond, they are free to.

Blessings,
- H

The Parable Of The Wedding Banquet

 

[Keiw]

and there it is…. Denying God and His greatness. I wondered how long till someone would do that, given the amount of horrendous theology on this forum. Well, seems like robert derrick and keiw are trying to out “heretic” each other.

Try proving my words are error. You cant.

 

[Keiw]

It's a favourite ploy of courtroom lawyers, asking a question they already know the answer to. Then if a lie is told, BAM!!! . . . evidence is revealed.

Means you have no answer right?

 

[Keiw]

Not true.
Jesus preached and died to seal the irrevocable guarantee of eternal salvation.

The faction making its way across the web, determined to enter Christian discussion sites and assail that fact refer to eternal salvation as OSAS. As if that is a misnomer. It isn't
They are.

Those faction members insist "OSAS" is a license to sin. That in reality Christians have to work to remain saved and not let themselves feel secure in Christ because they're intended to labor to be approved.

These are lies. The faction crew know this. They're not interested in what the bible actually teaches. Their motive is to cause division and insecurity in Christians. Especially new ones.

They're liars and they're damned.

Christians know Jesus because Jesus knows them. No one will take us from his hand. But boy are there demonic evil people bent on giving it their best shot in trying to lead us to think we can lose our salvation.

Why?
Because they have not one clue as to what salvation is.

Though they sure will know what eternal damnation feels like.

That's fair.

Jesus shows you your error in thinking at Matt 7:22-23-- these believe like you--that they have Jesus but he assures them he never even knew them. 1Cor 9:27-- proves one can fall. Solomon fell to false god worship--Judas fell. Salvation is to the righteous, not to one who practices a sin. Hebrews 10:26 assures--there is no sacrafice left for any who practice a sin. I say the teachers assuring others you are saved are these- 2Cor 11:12-15--Run from them.
The righteous have disowned themselves to follow Jesus- Mark 8:34

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Try proving my words are error. You cant.

Genesis 18:14
Psalms 115:3
Jeremiah 32:17
Heres an entire pages talking about God’s omnipotence. Imagine thinking you’re a christian, yet denying God can do anything.
The Omnipotence, Omniscience, and Omnipresence of God - The Gospel Coalition

 

[PinSeeker]

I havent shared those teachings here yet. I will eventually.

Oh boy. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

None are predestined.

"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." (Romans 8:29-30)

"In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved... In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory." (Ephesians 1:5-6)

So, yes, clearly, some ~ some, not all ~ are actively predestined by God for adoption to Himself. Others, because of God's lack of active predestination, are also predestined because of God's omission of those from this active predestination. Having mentioned this predestination (of those He foreknew) in Romans 8, Paul then fleshes out God's purpose regarding salvation and His election of some and not others, saying:

"You will say to me then, 'Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?' But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory...?" (Romans 9:19-23)

God desires all to repent so he does not know who will choose that path. His will is what was predestined.

No, quite obviously, it is certain people who are predestined by God for adoption to Himself. These are God's elect. God's will is what it is. And His will should be distinguished from what He desires, which is that all would come to knowledge of the truth. Much in the same way as you and I might desire something but overrule our desire with our will for, well, some good reason.

You were asking above to be proved wrong. Well... there you go. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Keiw]

"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." (Romans 8:29-30)

"In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved... In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory." (Ephesians 1:5-6)

So, yes, clearly, some ~ some, not all ~ are actively predestined by God for adoption to Himself. Others, because of God's lack of active predestination, are also predestined because of God's omission of those from this active predestination. Having mentioned this predestination (of those He foreknew) in Romans 8, Paul then fleshes out God's purpose regarding salvation and His election of some and not others, saying:

"You will say to me then, 'Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?' But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory...?" (Romans 9:19-23)


No, quite obviously, it is certain people who are predestined by God for adoption to Himself. These are God's elect. God's will is what it is. And His will should be distinguished from what He desires, which is that all would come to knowledge of the truth. Much in the same way as you and I might desire something but overrule our desire with our will for, well, some good reason.

You were asking above to be proved wrong. Well... there you go. :)

Grace and peace to you.

God was just speaking of those who would live righteous. The righteous are vessels of his glory. It could be anyone who listens and applies and lives righteous. Remember--Jesus died for all, meant he opened the door to all. Few find it.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

no one denies that Jesus can take away our old nature, whether He does or not is another story. If we are not of the elect, He wont. Just like with esau who sought repentance but couldnt find it. And yes, grace is unmerited, yet for those who are of the elect, it shows His glory to save the few.

So you name yourself, "lifelong sinner" because you realize you are not one of the elect"? That must not feel very good. How do you cope with knowing you are going to hell, and there isn't anything you can do about it? Certainly not "good news" - what "gospel" means.