What is Predetermined?
- Thread starter robert derrick
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Keiw
Well-Known Member
OSAS is false. All who know Jesus know it. Here is his answer to that--Matthew 7:22-23--And Matthew 24:13-- He that has endured until is end will be saved-- See that will be saved. Endure till ones end doing what?( Matt 7:21)Living now to do Jesus Fathers will in this satan ruled system. Showing clearly one can fall, proving once saved always saved an untruthful teaching by blind guides. These-2Cor 11:12-15-- i say--Run from them.
Sin is birthed in the mind. Even if it never leaves the mind, it still exists. Why do you think Peter is encouraging people to grow in Christ? Because they aren't yet blameless. Peter was quite aware that our perfect deeds don't bring salvation. In fact, he goes on to say:
"Therefore, beloved, as you anticipate these things, make every effort to be found at peace—spotless and blameless in His sight. 15 Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him."
Why is he bringing up Paul's writings? Perhaps because he knew that Paul wrote much about salvation being of faith and not of works. What brings salvation according to Peter? Not being perfect but God's patience brings salvation. Why would God have to be patient unless his people were not yet blameless in every way?
In fact, why do we have to make every effort to be found at peace if we are already completely holy? No one is perfectly righteous. That's why we need Christ's righteousness applied to our account.
I assume you are referring to 1 John 2 with the righteousness quote?
28 And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. 29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him. (1 Jn 2.28-29)
Practices’. The Gk. ποιέω is transliterated poieō. The term denotes a customary, habitual and ongoing activity. Constant development. Compare with Jn 8.34 where John is speaking about a practice of sin, not a one-off act.
Whoever practices righteousness has been born of God.
The regular practice of righteousness does not mean sinless perfection.
Well, nice cherry picking but those verses don't say everything is predetermined.
If you believe your sin is predetermined, you would rightly rejoice in sinning because it would be God's will.
That's nonsense.
God isnt forcing anyone to believe. He’s not dragging people into Heaven who dont want to go.
True, and He certainly is not forcing you.
He knows who will believe, and those become His elect.
Then you disagree with the teacher you directed me to, who certainly says the pre-elect also must make the choice of believing or not.
You are saying something different: that all the pre-elect will believe, and they will know they are pre-elect when they believe it, and so have no choice in the matter, whether to believe it or not: when they believe, they are, and when they believe not, they are not.
No choice to believe or not; otherwise, you would simply choose to believe it for yourself.
Correct?
NewYay!!! Robert derrick put me on ignore!!
No, I haven't. And before I read your confession of not being saved, but only waiting to see if you are one of the pre-elect to be saved, then I will no more ignore you at all.
I no more ignore you as an unashamed hypocrite, because you are only an unashamed sinner hoping to find out you are a prechosen elect.
You are very fascinatingly honest, but unfortunately deluded by Calvin about how any are saved and chosen in Christ Jesus.
Good observation.
And they actually do rejoice in it, because they celebrate grace during it.
Which of course is not only nonsense, but devilish in the extreme, by putting Christ to an open shame, and dancing upon His blood as something unworthy to repent of their sins for.
It's true actually. Elsewhere this person has confessed to being the oddity of one believing Calvin, yet still unsaved, because he has not found himself believing to be one of the pre-elect yet.
You are indeed speaking to an unsaved life long sinner, that believes Calvin and is hoping one day to believe he is of pre-election status, while he is not believing Jesus and seeking saving truth.
In this regard, I find unsaved life long sinner to be much more honest that then rest of the so-called saved sinners by grace.
You must believe that in order to be a Calvinist, and so I applaud your frankness and honesty about Calvinism, because you are a true Calvinist indeed.
So, the question is, if you ever know you are indeed one of Calvin's pre-elect, then will you also become a Christian?
Does Calvin pre-elect Calvinists only, while Christ does not pre-elect Christians?
And yet you acknowledge you do not yet know if you are one of the prechosen, since you acknowledge you are still one of the unsaved and not elected.
How will you know differently in some day or hour in the future? What do you see happening when you believe He is choosing you?
Lightening falling from heaven in your sight?
God speaking to you by voice from heaven, as with Saul of Tarsus?
One moment you did not know, and the next you know, as in the resurrection of the dead?
Calvin didnt create a doctrine, he simply restored what had been lost since the days of the apostles.
But being unsaved and therefore without the renewed mind of Christ by the Spirit of truth, how would you know?
Can unsaved life long and not yet elected sinners know the truth of Scripture that makes us free, and yet remain unsaved and unelected?
If you already know the truth of Scripture and the doctrine of Christ, so as to confirm Calvin taught it truly, why then are you not made free by the truth of Christ, and are still an unsaved and not yet elected sinner??
Lifelong_sinner
Well-Known Member
simple. I love my addiction. People make like Jesus can remove any addiction, and i believe He CAN, whether He choses to or not is the question. My addiction is first. You have any idea the toll my addiction has had on me?? ER visits, cant sleep anymore laying down, constant worry of the pain, plus the knowledge that i have to choose between my addiction and God?
God chose who would be saved before the creation of the universe.
God foreknows who, but only predestinated what the chosen will do: to be conformed to His image and righteousness.
So we also can know whether we are chosen, by whether we are being conformed to His righteousness, even as He is righteous, or we are going on still in unrighteous sins and trespasses.
Everyone who will be saved already has their names written in the Book of Life. God chose.
Everyone who will be saved unto the end, already has their name written in the Book of Life: God foreknows, not fore chose.
You keep denying His omnipotence.
His Omnipotence chose not to forechoose who, and having already watched it come to pass, foreknows whosoever that was, is, and shall be.
If God chose by omnipotence to choose who beforehand who, then all chosen would be saved, without choice, otherwise, He makes His omnipotence to become impotent in the face of forechosen man's choice not to serve Him:
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve.
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.
Since it is by choice offered freely to all, then it is by free will to believe and be saved, not by prechoosing who to be saved.
Them that believe God chose who would be saved beforehand, reject the Omnipotence of God to choose how He would save whosever chooses to believe and obey Him.
Calvinists of predetermining who determine for themselves what God must and must not do in saving souls: Calvinists tell God how He must do things with His own creation.
Calvinists have predetermined God's will by and for themselves.
God foreknows who, but only predestinated what the chosen will do: to be conformed to His image and righteousness.
So we also can know whether we are chosen, by whether we are being conformed to His righteousness, even as He is righteous, or we are going on still in unrighteous sins and trespasses.
Everyone who will be saved already has their names written in the Book of Life. God chose.
Everyone who will be saved unto the end, already has their name written in the Book of Life: God foreknows, not fore chose.
You keep denying His omnipotence.
His Omnipotence chose not to forechoose who, and having already watched it come to pass, foreknows whosoever that was, is, and shall be.
If God chose by omnipotence to choose who beforehand who, then all chosen would be saved, without choice, otherwise, He makes His omnipotence to become impotent in the face of forechosen man's choice not to serve Him:
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve.
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.
Since it is by choice offered freely to all, then it is by free will to believe and be saved, not by prechoosing who to be saved.
Them that believe God chose who would be saved beforehand, reject the Omnipotence of God to choose how He would save whosever chooses to believe and obey Him.
Calvinists of predetermining who determine for themselves what God must and must not do in saving souls: Calvinists tell God how He must do things with His own creation.
Calvinists have predetermined God's will by and for themselves.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Actuall both people and events or things can be foreknown and predestined!
Foreknown is pro-ginosis or known in advance
Predestinate is pro-orizo or mark out in advance.
Elect is another term which means chosen and in Ephesians it is people are chosen in advance.
But as for God determining the whosoever?
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
NO ONE can come to Jesus unless the Father Drags them.
John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Every one that comes to jesus by being dragged by teh Father, Jesus will not cast out!
Powerful evidence God does not leave by chance salvation to a fallen mans mind.
You think you are the only one with addiction nigh unto death? I've been there and done that. It cost me a career, wife, and wasting the most productive time of my life, with no children to this day and none to come.
Fortunately I was a Christian, not a Calvinist: I still believed Jesus could deliver me, not Calvin, not Paul, not any man at all, nor myself.
And so it is your addiction to Calvin that keeps you in the state you are in.
In Christ, we can suffer and die by past addictions, but they become addictions of the past: our bodies can die by our sins of the past, but our souls need not die in our sins that are past.
Since your Calvin rejects free will of man, he also rejects power of God in man through Christ Jesus to choose the good and not the evil.
If you would believe Jesus, and not trust in Calvin, then you could pray He cut the lust of your addiction out of your heart, so that you would be free from serving it in this life, because where no lust is, there is no temptation to sin in our addiction:
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
I.e. Calvin offers nothing for you addiction, only the vain hope of being 'chosen' before death, because of being prechosen before birth.
Jesus Christ offers the power of God to become a son of God in deed and in truth, to choose to love Him more than any addiction on earth, to choose to addict ourselves to Him more than to the addictions of the world:
We know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints.
The offer is simple: believe and choose the power of Christ to cut out your addiction of the heart from the roots vs the vain hope of Calvin to see if you 'get chosen' for election before death.
After all, look where Calvin's gotten you this far.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
So...I can't tell whether you actually agree or disagree. You seem to want to object and ask why, apparently missing the very things that I gave already to support what I said. Then you go on to elaborate on the idea that I gave of pressing on, as if to agree.
Nonetheless, what I said was not "philosophic" as you say, but scriptural and biblical, and I even quoted some. But the premise is that God more than treats us as children, but even calls us "little children", and that rather, is the nature of Paul's explanation.
As for the idea of God not being "pre" anything-- I did not say that He hasn't spelled it out to us in a way that children would understand it, as over time with repetitions, over weeks and months and years-- I did say that exactly. But I also said that God Himself does not exist in that child-like creation where days turn into years and years into millennia, but rather that He "is the same yesterday, today, and forever." And now I am quoting Him again, and repeating myself, and Him.
So...again, which is it? Do you actually agree with this biblical explanation and the reality of what is only explained as predestination, as to children, just as He has...or not?
As for Calvin, if he was not against us, he is for us.
Honest question: Is it easier to believe in fate (calvinism) than to believe your addictions are the result of your own choices? Because if that's the case, you are only deceiving yourself.
To me, this was kind of the temptation of Calvinism ( I was almost one once) It's at the same time a terrible thought that everything is just pre-arranged and you have no real choices, but at the same time, it makes your bondage not your fault in any real sense. So you say "Whatever will be will be." and go on enjoying your sin for brief moments while being miserable the rest of the time. It's really not what God has for you. He offers freedom, but we have to choose it also.
No, it's not.
Well, they know ~ or should know, if they don't ~ that nothing can separate them from the love of God in Christ Jesus their Lord (Romans 8:39).
Absolutely, but we work and will for God's good pleasure BECAUSE of God's working in us. This is exactly what Paul says in Philippians 2:12-13. And, as Peter says, God has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for us, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time, and in this we rejoice (1 Peter 1:3-6)
We could fall, if we were left to ourselves, if it were not for God working in us to ensure that does not happen, if it were not God keeping us from stumbling, which He does, by His purpose and power, by His Spirit.
Once Saved Always Saved ~ although, as I said before, is kind of a clumsy way of putting it ~ is a truth of God's Word. And as Isaiah says and Peter quotes, "All flesh is like the flower of grass; the grass withers, and the flower fails, but the Word of the LORD stands forever."
Grace and peace to you, Keiw.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
All the ones Jesus speaks those words to are told God is with them. There are 34,000 religions claiming to be christian, All claim to be getting holy spirit, yet all creation sees a mass of confusion, a house divided. The holy spirit is not the cause of the confusion, its the dogmas men learn in schools and then go teach. Jesus started a single religion. His teachings back the teachers he appointed.
I have shown many what he teaches and they reject them because they arent being taught them, they are being taught dogmas. Because every one of those teachings i shared are in every translation on earth. I get kicked out of sights for sharing them.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Read the letter to Sardis, Revelation 3:1-6. Note that from the beginning of the Reformation the teaching was according to Jesus, "you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead." Also note that John Wesley's holiness movement is also mentioned, "you have some even in Sardis that walk with me in white, for they are worthy." The next age was Philadelphia who Wesley was their forefather, who also keep His entire word, including the whole Covenant that included the gifts of the Spirit, but then the last age, the infection from the dead doctrine has spread to lukewarm Laodecia who don't believe they need to be Spirit filled. Jesus is on the outside of the door of their natures. They are not born again.
With the Great Tribulation so close at hand, I'm glad to be a Philadelphian and will be protected during that time like the Israelites from the angel of death in Egypt. A note from me - make sure you have no bitterness, and have forgiven all brethren and have made every attempt to be reconciled with them in fellowship. Matthew 6:14-15; 1 John 1:7.
I think you're referring to what Jesus said in Matthew 7 and 24. As I said, we agree on what He said, of course, but you're not recognizing the fact that those who do persevere to the end are the ones whom God has given His Spirit and enabled to persevere to the end, by His power; by God’s power we are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time, and in this we rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you are grieved by various trials (1 Peter 1:5-6). So again, yes, what Jesus said is true, but the power to persevere is really of God, and that will not fail. Those who have the Spirit will persevere to the end. He ~ God ~ Who began a good work in any person will ~ will ~ bring it to completion at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6).
LOL! Okay, but there's only one Bible. :)
There are many don't believe in the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the triune God, yes, and that's unfortunate, because it's very wrong. But that doesn't disqualify them from being Christians. Same with quite a lot of other things.
Yes, but God will bring all things to Himself in the fullness of time.
Absolutely agree.
Well, yes and no. See above.
Right, but you shared them to the exclusion of other Bible truths. I know you didn't intend to do that, but, well, you did.
Man, that must have hurt! I mean to get kicked out of sights... people couldn't even see you anymore because you got kicked so hard? My goodness! :)
Grace and peace to you, Keiw.
