You have insisted endlessly that unless you continue to trust Jesus until you die, you will stop being saved. Is that not what you believe?
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Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
No, it's "Be saved and you will turn over a new leaf." Feel free to quote me on that.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
This is no challenge whatsoever to what I've been saying. Leave them exactly the way they are. All these promises apply to believers. Not ex-believers and those who do not endure in believing to the very end. It's so simple I can't believe you people can't see it.
The only thing that is up for honest debate is whether or not the real believer can go back to unbelief. The scriptures are plain as to what happens if one does - he will be lost. What can be legitimately argued is whether or not a true believer ever actually would. There is no legitimate argument for the ex-believer somehow being saved when Jesus returns. No unbeliever is saved/born again. This is so fundamental to Christianity that I can't believe there are those of you out there that believe an unbeliever can be a saved person.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
That is exactly what I say because that is what the Bible says:
"6But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are His house, if we hold firmlyc to our confidence and the hope of which we boast." Hebrews 3:6
"14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first." Hebrews 3:14
"14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first." Hebrews 3:14
Which part of these passages do you not understand????? Even the original OSAS doctrine acknowledged that a person is not saved if they do not endure in faith to the very end. Didn't you know this?
We do not have to know the “ heart” of a Legalist—- they reveal themselves with their mouths or with their accusations via their computer Ink.....
For a Mature Christian, confident in their Salvation, and realizing that the have been “ set free” from any Bondage, the best way to live as far as deciding which freedoms to use and which freedoms to avoid , such as drinking or movies, etc is to do it thusly—- “Preach Christ and live you own Convictions”....
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Even Hitler could have “turned over a New Leaf “ if he chose to .... so what? Would THAT have Saved him?
Changing one’s behavior might make them more “ moral”, but Hell will be Chock-Full Of “ Moral” People and “ Good Neighbor Sams”.....
We do not “ Change” the Outside Of the Cup to GET Saved or to STAY Saved.....The Lost man needs to see the true Horror Of His Lost Condition and “ Turn to God ( the Repentance That Saves) with Faith in Jesus Christ”......THAT will get you Saved and then God will give you His Holy Spirit That will tend to “ The INSIDE of the cup”..... does any of this ring a bell ?
We don't have to “Change” Anything......Just as a Leopard can’t change his spots, a man can try to “ white wash” his Sins, but it is a Fools Errand at best ......What one needs to do is to Repent of any false notions of what it is that Saves him and Turn to Jesus.....once that happens and the man becomes a Believer , he does not change —-HE gets TRANSFORMED ! Big difference.Any man can clean himself up on the Outside and please other men and his church - going buddies—- Only GOD can TRANSFORM a Man’s Heart....The INSIDE of the Cup.....Gods Transforming May take longer than the-man Who grits his teeth and uses all the Will-Power that he can muster , mainly to prove to others that he is Saved —— we gotta keep those self-Righteous Fruit Inspectors happy, Don’t we? God is not looking for Spiritual “ Imitation”( which explains 99% of “ Change”) .....He is looking for Spiritual “ FRUITION “ and only HE can do it...Trust Him to do it and He will....You do YOUR part, which is to practice Faith, and God will do HIS part , which is to “ TRANSFORM you into the Image Of His Son” .....once again, it’s “ Let go and let God”.....It takes Trust.....do you have it?
You are still not addressing the contradiction in this post and in general the OSAS camp. If no born again believer can fall away then the one who falls into legalism cannot fall away from grace.... This is what forces me to say OSAS is a false doctrine, mind you I believe in eternal security for the saint... as something we must arrive at in our walk with Christ Jesus, as we come to that blessed assurance of the faith.
Here is a post I wrote on the other forum (where we first met) that I wrote regarding this topic.
“Faith is not merely a journey for the feet, but it is also a journey for the heart.” — Aiden Wilson Tozer
When We first come to Christ, We are taught of Salvation, We see our need for salvation and by the conviction of the Holy Ghost We willingly come to the cross to receive His Grace and forgiveness by His Blood. This is Open to "whosoever will" hear the good news and receive Christ as Savior.
As We Grow in the faith, we are fed the milk of doctrine, We learn the doctrines of the Gospel with our mind and we believe with our mind. Jesus is indeed our savior and we feel the weight of sin lifted off of us when we were saved. This is where much of the evangelical church stands today, They are indeed Faithful, But their faith is in a state of infancy on this journey. They are content to remain a child. And indeed the next Phase of this journey is a daunting one, the valley of doubt, which must be entered if we are to grow and mature.
The Valley of doubt is like the adolescent stage of our faith. The light of Christ in us leads us to see our own failures, we struggle against them and try to conquer our failures of our own strength and will, and fail over and over again, we can fall into legalism, only to stumble back into sin, and we begin to doubt our very salvation In Christ as real. When we read the Word of God, we are drawn to the passages that teach conditional security, and wonder if we were saved to begin with, and to question the things we were taught, when we were being fed by the shepherds of the faith, Many will fall away from the faith in this valley. When we come to the Point of defeat that we finally "Give up trying", And let God do in us, is when we have finally put to death the "old man" and learn to trust in God's providence. Thus we become Young men and young women in the faith. Those who overcome this valley have reached the "full assurance of the faith".
Once we are "dead", Christ can live in us and through us, We have made Him not just our Savior, But our Lord, It is at this point that we are regenerated, Become a new Creation in Christ. Yes as Babes in Christ we were his, but we were also full of ourselves, Our human nature and will. It is this will that led us to receive Christ and the good news of the gospel, but it is this will that hinders us from growth in Christ. With our will out of the way, He the Potter can take this clay and begin to mold it to his will.
From this point on we now "put on the new man", It is not an instantaneous thing when we put off the Old man, But one that takes the remainder of our time on earth. Some become elders, some become saints others teachers and shepherds all by his will and calling not of our own will. Man cannot ordain man only God can ordain humans to do his will, and to send them to do his will.
I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. (1 John 2:13)
A Believer who gets seduced, or as Paul said, “ Bewitched” by the “ ear tickling “ Of Legalism will “ Fall from Grace” and go on to live a Beggarly Walk Of Faith with no peace or Joy or Assurance Of His Salvation.....always having to wonder if he’s “ done enough” or “ repented enough” to be Saved....
If this poor, deceived man was like the Believers That Paul talked about in Galatians , ones who “ Started out so Well!” , he qualified for the Promises Of Jesus , one of which was a Promise to Save All Of Those That “ came to Him”.....
The Galatians did that and at least for a while they Trusted in the Gospel alone to Save them.....Paul would have not said that they “ started well” without tha being True.....Somewhere along the line they listened to False and Perverted “ Gospels” taught by “ Accursed” or Damned Teachers and had their Faith “ Ship- Wrecked” .....Paul called them “Foolish” But in the end he was convinced that they would Return to the Truth......They would be Saved regardless because of the Promise Of Jesus that if you Believed in Him you were “ALREADY SAVED and could NEVER COME UNDER CONDEMNATION”..... no time requirements or limitations were given—- if you Truly Believed for ANY Length of time , you got qualified and covered by the Promise.....” Already” means already and “NEVER” means never....
Also, you say that unbelief is a sin and the blood covers that sin.
If that's true, then why is unbelief the UNPARDONABLE sin??
Unbelief is the only sin which cannot be pardoned
It takes an entire LIFETIME of Unbelief to make it the “ Unpardonable Sin”
Somebody that has put their Faith in Paul’s Gospel Alone to Save them is Saved Forever, no matter What the Sin is.....He May be “ bewitched”at some later time and Stumble into Legalism or even Unbelief and have His Faith “ Shipwrecked” , But He will remain Saved....How do we know this? Jesus says that at whatever point in your life that you Believe in Him, you have “ ALREADY” obtained Eternal Life and you have “ ALREADY” passed from Death unto Life.....I was a “ GIFT”, and “ the Gifts Of God are without recall”.....
If that's true, then why is unbelief the UNPARDONABLE sin??
Unbelief is the only sin which cannot be pardoned
It takes an entire LIFETIME of Unbelief to make it the “ Unpardonable Sin”
Somebody that has put their Faith in Paul’s Gospel Alone to Save them is Saved Forever, no matter What the Sin is.....He May be “ bewitched”at some later time and Stumble into Legalism or even Unbelief and have His Faith “ Shipwrecked” , But He will remain Saved....How do we know this? Jesus says that at whatever point in your life that you Believe in Him, you have “ ALREADY” obtained Eternal Life and you have “ ALREADY” passed from Death unto Life.....I was a “ GIFT”, and “ the Gifts Of God are without recall”.....
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Paul mentioned in Galatians that there were some that have “ Troubled You”.....Mr. Bueller “troubles” true Gospel believers with his “ back- loaded” Works for Salvation....he is too clever to say it up- front —- he knows That it will not fly.... it’s a “ subtle” little Addition to the Gospel....somebody else was “subtle” in the Bible......just sayin’.....
Romans 6:23 Eternal life IN Christ Jesus. No Christ, no salvation.
John 15:6 Anyone not abiding in Christ is thrown away as a dead branch.
Revelation 3:1-3 Strengthen what remains and is about to die.
Hebrews 10:39 Some shrink back and are destroyed.
1 Corinthians 9:27 Even Paul disciplined himself so as not to be disqualified.
In this uncertain world, here is one thing that can be reliably counted on....Any Bible verse that “appears” to dispute the Eternal Security Of The Believer is a verse either taken out of context or it is a verse that is not addressing Believers....you can take that to the Bank.
John 15:6 Anyone not abiding in Christ is thrown away as a dead branch.
Revelation 3:1-3 Strengthen what remains and is about to die.
Hebrews 10:39 Some shrink back and are destroyed.
1 Corinthians 9:27 Even Paul disciplined himself so as not to be disqualified.
In this uncertain world, here is one thing that can be reliably counted on....Any Bible verse that “appears” to dispute the Eternal Security Of The Believer is a verse either taken out of context or it is a verse that is not addressing Believers....you can take that to the Bank.
Unless Paul specifically goes out Of His way to warn that what he is about to write is his own opinion and that only......anything that Paul says comes straight from Jesus— Paul never wrote Anything That Jesus did not tell him to write—- Paul was God’s “ Chosen Vessel” to be the Voice of Jesus after His Ascension.... As Peter said..” Paul is sometimes hard to understand, but everything he writes is equal to any Scripture Found In God’s Word”.....
Why was OSAS never even heard of in the church until 1,500 years after Jesus died?
Can you say” Satan?”
The True Gospel Of “ NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD” is actually “ GOOD NEWS” for those that are Blinded by Satan——Do you think that he wants anybody out there to know the Truth and escape his clutches?He saw to it that scores of men were murdered for simply trying to get the Gospel in print or to get it translated to a language that common people could understand....He won many rounds in the past, by at least now, the Truth Of Eternal Security is out there now and people have a choice to accept it or reject it...Satan lost the Battle Of hiding the Word from the masses,but he STILL knows how to “ Twist Scripture”.... His Underlings do it in here every day....
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Can you say” Satan?”
The True Gospel Of “ NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD” is actually “ GOOD NEWS” for those that are Blinded by Satan——Do you think that he wants anybody out there to know the Truth and escape his clutches?He saw to it that scores of men were murdered for simply trying to get the Gospel in print or to get it translated to a language that common people could understand....He won many rounds in the past, by at least now, the Truth Of Eternal Security is out there now and people have a choice to accept it or reject it...Satan lost the Battle Of hiding the Word from the masses,but he STILL knows how to “ Twist Scripture”.... His Underlings do it in here every day....
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“ Never Taught?” What do you think THIS verse is teaching? ——- “ Anybody that ASKS to be Saved , WILL be Saved!” ...There’s a few dozen more....
Is there an “ Interpreter” Present in the Congregation.....did you not know that Speaking In Tongues without an Interpreter present to explain the “ Unknown Tongue ” is an Act Of Sin ? You can look it up....I already did...
Once again—- I could say the same thing about you.....Over the years (has it been “ years” yet?) I have Untwisted every Misunderstood verse that you have put Forth, and I have done it with Scripture—- NOT just my opinion —- opinions are Worthless in here....Chapter and Verse are Required....
If you want to , I invite you to throw out any verse that you are unknowingly ( I hope) Confused about and I will try to get you to see it properly, examining it through a Lens Of Grace as opposed to using your Lens Of Methodist Law and Legalism.... one verse at a time please....All Of this “ Willfull Sinning” that I engage in And this endless cycle of “ Sin ...Repent...Sin ...Repent” in order to Keep myself Saved is VERY Time Consuming....Lol....
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Sorry.....I was home - schooled.....lol....Plus, Am nearing 70 years of age and I’m about half Senile...Yet, I still have enough sense to NEVER agree with your “ Back- Loaded” Works Doctrine.....If I fail to understand an important point that you are trying to make ....make it simple....make it like you are talking to a five year old...I’m not too proud to have that happen....
Part of the problem is I don’t read your posts close enough....I just kinda peruse them because I’ve heard it all so many times and I’m very easily bored.....
Another reason is that although it might “appear” that I am responding to you —- I am not. I know that I will never change your “ stiff - necked” thinking that thinks it’s a sin to listen to somebody else out there that might have more Biblical insight than you do , somebody a little smarter than you who that has been blessed by God to know things that you don’t ...( I am not referring here to myself, but if the shoe fits....)
I post to You , but I am keeping In mind how I can merely use you as a “ Springboard” to get the Truth Of Pauls Gospel Of Pure Grace out there to the Newbies that have not been ruined yet by your subtle insertion Of WORKS into God’s Plan Of Salvation That clearly Forbids it....”A little Leaven Leavens the whole Batch” ..... God HATES Leaven ....so do I.....So will the Newbies , if I have any say in the matter......
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Sorry.....it’s more like “ Be Saved and God will TRANSFORM you from the Inside Out” —- Yep....it’s that “ INSIDE of the Cup” thingy once again....
“Turning over a New Leaf” ( if I can quote you, as you say) is a Doctrine Straight from Hell! It has made many a man more “moral” , but becoming more “ moral” is NOT God's Elixir for Sin.... As I have told you before —- HELL will be overflowing with “ Moral” types......
Let me try to explain it with real- life situations.....
I used to work with guys that were genuinely mean and bitter people .....the only pleasure they derived from their lives was from insulting and hurting and embarrassing people....full of pessimism and hate....The were avoided much as possible ....you wanted t stay away from these type at all costs.....
Later on , some of these men started attending good Gospel Preaching Churches in their later years ......they came to see themselves as the Wretched , Lost Sinners That they were .....They Turned to Jesus to Save them and He did.....
These men that were so previously sullen and bitter and full of hate became Pussy Cats....GENUINE Smiles ( Not The PHONY ‘ religious’ smiles that you see the Religionists wear) were now on their faces of these men that almost constantly that replaced the frowns and sneers that had been there before.....it was like they were COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PEOPLE—— it was as If they were Born Again with New Hearts That Found Joy and Peace in their lives that had previously only known unhappiness and bitterness...
These men did not purposely “ Change” ...They did not “ Turn over a New-Leaf” .....For the most part , they were not even aware of it —- it sure as heck was not something that they we’re “ DOING” and there was nothing pretend or phony about it.....i
These men never “ Changed” in order to “live the life” that a phony Religionists might demand—— NO! These men did not “ Change” —- they got TRANSFORMED! Transformed from the inside out ....you get that “ inside of the Cup” cleaned up by the Holy Spirit as these men did (/simply because they BELIEVED and RESTED in the Gospel Of God's Grace)and that OUTSIDE of the Cup that the World can see as a Witness of a Miracle Of God will take care Of itself....,
I have seen this Miracle occur many times.....how about you,Ferris ? Do you know and have you seen the difference between the “ Changing” that a man can do by “Turning over a New Leaf” and the TRANSFORMING Miracle that only God can perform?
Better yet, have you ever EXPERIENCED this Miracle ? You probably have not and that explains a lot...some things one just has to experience in order to understand it...what I have described is the “Born Again” experience and yeah, it’s Mandantory..... everybody knows that we MUST BE “ Born Again” ....The ONLY thing the Religionists can do is to “ APE” the “ behavior” of the truly Transformed, Born- Again man .....He is ignorant of what DRIVES that new Behavior and all he can do is “ Act” like a Christian and “ play church” every Sunday and belt out that Song, “Nothing But The Blood Of Jesus” with a mindlessness That is truly Astounding ....
Don't try to merely *APE* the Behavior of the True Christian Like some In here do By “Turning over a New Leaf ”......it takes the Power Of God to be blessed with the Transformation that He is looking for...
You’ll Get if you REST in the Gospel and If you REST in the Finished Work Of The Cross That the Gospel Signifies.....May God Bless us ALL in the understanding of these Truths....God Bless....
Sorry about the length of this post......I get carried away sometimes....lol....
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Lol.....I Can’t *WAIT* to do Just THAT! Stay tuned....l
Oops..
Pretend this went right after Mr. Bueller’s post about His much- vaunted “ Leaf Turning” .....Lol.....
The above is not true.
God does not accept only His own work to accept anyone.
The verses I posted who that we also must do good works, and yes, to keep our salvation.
Good works are a sign of salvation,
no good works - no salvation.
We are God's hands and feet on this earth.
Jesus set up His Kingdom here on earth.
If we're to be members of the Kingdom, then we need to obey what Jesus taught us.
He taught us to do good works.
How many verses do you need?
And when are YOU going to post some verses that teach the opposite?
And I surely hope you know what BELIEVE means in the Greek in which the NT was written.
It does NOT mean to believe with the mind. It's an ACTIVE belief...one that DOES.
That God does not accept good works is a preposterous statement.
This is ALL God wants.
It's not enough not to do evil.
We must also do good.
There is no neutral when it comes to God.
You either believe His word or you don't.
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