What if you lose your faith?

[David H.]

I suppose the only thing that one can say for SURE about the Legalist is that he has “ Fallen From Grace” ( and we are SAVED by Grace, so that is a scary place to be!) and the Legalist is “ Severed From Christ”.. ( Another very scary place to find one’s self! ) Do either or both of these conditions equal a loss of Salvation ? Most Bible teachers that I respect and learn from say “ yes”, and others that I respect say “No”.......It seems that the Jury is still out on this one.....It’s a tad “murky”

You see at least how this contradicts the OSAS argument at the very least here, don't you? It is easy to condemn someone for being a legalist, but ultimately we do not know the heart. Perhaps God is getting them to overcome a sin or weakness in them by pushing them towards legalism at that time in their life, like an alcoholic who becomes saved and condemns all drinking.

I For one do not drink, but i do not condemn a Christian who does drink (Moderately and responsibly). The reason I do not drink is because the Lord led me to understand that if I wanted to serve Him I was to speak What His Spirit gave me to say, not what the wines and spirits gave me to say... I do not know if you understand this, but my "legalism" in my own life with regard to drinking is entirely based on serving Him. We have liberty as Christians, but sometimes we are called to submit to His service those liberties, and this being the calling and election of a saint.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It is easy to condemn someone for being a legalist

Yep, Lol. It appears falling away into a works salvation gospel is the only unbelief that a believer can fall into that their hyper-grace OSAS doctrine doesn't cover. It's quite hypocritical, lol. Comical, in fact.

 

[Marymog]

Look, I know that you know that we all know what a Catholic Mass looks like with all it's liturgy and costumes and careful procedures. There's nothing to prove. We all know that your denomination and 99.99% of all the other denominations in the church don't conduct their meetings in accordance with 1 Corinthians 14:26-31. Don't play games!.....

FINALLY Ferris....You have presented a point we can discuss!

So, your opinion (or point) is that 99.99% of all denominations don't conduct their church services in accordance with 1 Corinthians 14:26-31. That passage, according to your opinion, is how a church service should be conducted. And it is your opinion that if a denomination is not conducting a church service in that manner then that denomination did "not submit to the counsel of Apostle Paul". I think your opinion is not unreasonable. I can not speak for all denominations so I will only speak of my experience in The Church. During our church services we sing hymns and have words of instruction. There is no speaking in tongues. I suspect this is because there is nothing in Scripture that says that speaking in tongues is required to fulfil Scriptures definition of a church service. Unless you can show me in Scripture where it says that speaking in tongues is required for it to count as a God blessed and approved Church service?

Be honest not..... every single time you gather with your fellow believers each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation? Even if only 5 of you gather you ALWAYS fulfil 1 Corinthians 14:26-31 at every single meeting?

When you meet do you fulfil 1 Corinthian 14:34?

When you meet do you fulfil 1 Corinthians 11:24? :)

When you meet do you all agree with Paul's counsel in his rhetorical question from 1 Corinthians 10:16?

Curious Mary

 

[Ferris Bueller]

During our church services we sing hymns and have words of instruction. There is no speaking in tongues. I suspect this is because there is nothing in Scripture that says that speaking in tongues is required to fulfil Scriptures definition of a church service. Unless you can show me in Scripture where it says that speaking in tongues is required for it to count as a God blessed and approved Church service?

If someone stood up in a Catholic Mass and started speaking in tongues they would be escorted out of the meeting. I know it, you know it. The point you're not getting is the meeting of the saints is to be PARTICAPATORY. Participation by the 'audience' in your rigidly controlled system of one-sided meeting together is not allowed. You know it, I know it. This is true of most other denominations, too.

Speaking in tongues is not required. Sometimes there is the move of the Spirit that way, sometimes there is not. The point is, it is not to be suppressed.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Be honest not..... every single time you gather with your fellow believers each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation? Even if only 5 of you gather you ALWAYS fulfil 1 Corinthians 14:26-31 at every single meeting?

If you have an open meeting where orderly participation and discussion is allowed 1 Corinthians 14:26-31 is fulfilled just as Apostle Paul says it is to be. But which the Catholic church rejects.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

When you meet do you fulfil 1 Corinthian 14:34?

Women are not to speak in pastoral authority in a church meeting.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

When you meet do you fulfil 1 Corinthians 11:24? :)

When believers do that, obviously, that passage is fulfilled.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

When you meet do you all agree with Paul's counsel in his rhetorical question from 1 Corinthians 10:16?

Of course. What's not to understand about the unity of the body of believers in a Communion/Passover observance?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

NOBODY “keeps the Commandments Of God”....The very reason they were ever given was to show you that you can’t keep them and to show you that you need a Savior to pass out Grace and TONS of it!

Yes, If we Love God we Will “Keep His Commandments” .....it’s a statement of FACT—-NOT a threat!

Hopefully, you can see the contradiction in your statements.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

"How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot...it is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Hebrews 10:29-31)
The verse surely applies to ALL Jesus-rejecters past present and future, not just Jews..:)

I kinda figured it went without saying....

 

[Ferris Bueller]

One is not Saved by “ Changing”—- Anybody can “ Turn over a New Leaf” ......One is Saved by *BELIEVING* .

What you're not acknowledging is saved people are changed people; saved people have turned over a new leaf; saved people believe. You mislead people who are not changed, and who have not changed over to a new leaf, and who do not believe into thinking they are saved when in fact they are not, their lives testifying to the fact that they are not saved. You teach the very deception that John told us to not be deceived by!

"7 ...let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous. 8The one who practices sin is of the devil" 1 John 3:7-8
​

You say the one who practices righteousness is of the devil and is a works salvationist, and the one who practices sin is of God, safely resting in the gospel. You are deceived and you are leading many into that same deception. You are responsible for helping the enemy pack our churches full of unsaved people who think they are saved. You have cast aside the Bible passages that say the unchanged person is in fact just that; an unchanged, unsaved, not born again person.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Where did I say that the Sin Of Unbelief will damn you? I have said repeatedly in here that a man that is in a state of Unbelief his ENTIRE LIFETIME is the very definition of being a Lost Man..... If a person has ever been a Believer for just one second and then falls back into Unbelief sometime in the future, I believe that he is still Saved.

Except for the legalist. Right?

 

[BloodBought 1953]

So I should not be concerned about sleeping with my step mother?

"8You must not have sexual relations with your father’s wife; it would dishonor your father." Leviticus 18:8
​

Paul was (1 Corinthians 5:1), so shouldn't we be, too?
Think about how that fits into the law of Christ so you can stop believing this stupid 'keeping the law curses you' theology. The law is a curse to the person who keeps it FOR THE PURPOSE OF EARNING SALVATION, not to the person who upholds it as an expression of the summary of the law: “Love your neighbor as yourself.* Love does no wrong to its neighbor." (Romans 13:9-10, *Leviticus 19:18).

Are you not saying the same thing that I always say? The Law is Great....it is, in fact, Perfect! I always say to keep it to the best of your ability because if you do, God will bless you for it —- it’s the smartest way to have a happy life! It’s God's “ Instruction Manual” for humans and the closer you follow it, the less trouble and the more blessings you will have in your life.....even an Atheist will have a better life if he “ does not kill” or “ doe not steal”,etc......

The man who lets the 613 Laws Of God be the guide to his life will be MUCh better off than anybody that ignores it.....

So yes! Keep the Law the best that you can—- do it because it is smart! Just don’t try to do it because it is the way to get Saved or stay Saved.....that’s dumb.

Never forget that the OVERRIDING PURPOSE of the Law is to show you that you CANT KEEP IT and that Realization is meant to lead you to Jesus....Obedience is great , but it does not save....only Faith in the Gospel will accomplish that....For Salvation, it’s ALWAYS —- NOTHING But The Blood.....

 

[GodsGrace]

First of all there are not "so many verses" that say you "must remain in Christ".

And what you need to do, is get beyond trying to prove that you can lose your salvation.
As that is what Paul refers to as getting out of the 1st principles, the baby christian stage, where you are worrying about losing salvation, and can't believe that God keeps you saved, and often these toddlers will want to worry about repenting from sin, or even moreso..they obsess on "confessing sin".

Here is the verse. Hebrews 6:1

Dear Behold,
Persons that believe as the bible teaches, that we MUST ABIDE in Christ in order to be saved at the end of our life,
do not sit around worrying about losing their salvation.
1 Peter 1:19 We obtain the salvation of our souls at the end of our life. The outcome of our faith is salvation.
We are saved at the moment we believe, if we endure and believe in God till the end.
Revelation 2:4-5 tells us it is possible to fall from our faith, in which case we are to repent...if we do not, Jesus will come and remove the lampstand from its place. To him that overcomes Jesus will grant to eat of the tree of life. We do not overcome only one time...but daily.

Those are some verses. You say there are not many about falling from grace...this is because you do not wish to see them.
Here are some more:

2 Corinthians 11:3
Hebrews 3:14
2 Peter 2:20-22
Romans 11:19-22
Matthew 24:10-13
Hebrews 10:39
2 Peter 1:5-10

and so many more. The NT must be read in its entirety.

As to confessing sins, YES, they must be confessed. Every day we sin, every day we should ask for forgiveness as the Apostles and writers taught in their writings. More verses will be posted if you really need them. Here's a good one:
1 John 1:19
Matthew 6:14
Jesus prayer taught to the Apostles asked God for His forgiveness.
Mark 11:25

You're not doing "toddlers" any service with your words. Many on these forums believe they could live a life of sin and still be saved. This is not true.
See Matthew 25:45-46 Those who did NOT do as Jesus requests will go into eternal punishment.

The toddlers need to know that they are disciples of Jesus and must follow His words in order to be saved.

 

[farouk]

Dear Behold,
Persons that believe as the bible teaches, that we MUST ABIDE in Christ in order to be saved at the end of our life,
do not sit around worrying about losing their salvation.
1 Peter 1:19 We obtain the salvation of our souls at the end of our life. The outcome of our faith is salvation.
We are saved at the moment we believe, if we endure and believe in God till the end.
Revelation 2:4-5 tells us it is possible to fall from our faith, in which case we are to repent...if we do not, Jesus will come and remove the lampstand from its place. To him that overcomes Jesus will grant to eat of the tree of life. We do not overcome only one time...but daily.

Those are some verses. You say there are not many about falling from grace...this is because you do not wish to see them.
Here are some more:

2 Corinthians 11:3
Hebrews 3:14
2 Peter 2:20-22
Romans 11:19-22
Matthew 24:10-13
Hebrews 10:39
2 Peter 1:5-10

and so many more. The NT must be read in its entirety.

As to confessing sins, YES, they must be confessed. Every day we sin, every day we should ask for forgiveness as the Apostles and writers taught in their writings. More verses will be posted if you really need them. Here's a good one:
1 John 1:19
Matthew 6:14
Jesus prayer taught to the Apostles asked God for His forgiveness.
Mark 11:25

You're not doing "toddlers" any service with your words. Many on these forums believe they could live a life of sin and still be saved. This is not true.
See Matthew 25:45-46 Those who did NOT do as Jesus requests will go into eternal punishment.

The toddlers need to know that they are disciples of Jesus and must follow His words in order to be saved.

@GodsGrace The Lord sees the heart; what I would say is that if someone is dies lost in unbelief, having previously professed faith, the previous profession of faith was a profession, but not genuine, saving faith.

 

[farouk]

Again, I agree.
Jesus' SHEEP hear His voice.

If you're not a sheep, you don't hear His voice.
Only the sheep are saved.

If one strays, He goes looking for it.
I'm sure you know why....they can be killed or die in an accident.
The wanderer NEEDS to stay with the flock.
He needs Jesus to be close.

@GodsGrace The Good Shepherd section of John 10 is a great passage.

 

[GodsGrace]

Do You realize that trying to ruin people's faith, is the Devil's work?
You should realize yourself..... as you call yourself "GodsGrace" and then you try to deny it, by casting Doubt on the Cross and the Salvation that God offers as a gift, on a public "Christian" forum.
Bad idea to try to teach SELF SAVING Legalism< when you call yourself GODsGRACE.
Thats is about as bad as it gets.
Believe it.

Listen,

You can't stop being born again.
So, how you feel or what you think, 10 years after you are "seated in heavenly places, in Christ".......is actually irrelevant, as if you are already born again, then God has solved your eternity, forgiven your sin, and you HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, starting from that day you gave your FAITH, to God, =ONCE...
ONCE..
Not, BY holding onto it later......Does He accept it.......but He ACCEPTS IT< the DAY you give It to Him, and that is when you become born again.
You can't stop being born again.

The devil's work is telling persons they are saved forever no matter what.
Yes, the devil thanks you abundantly.

Grace is given to us continually, not just one time. The more you need grace and use it, the more God will give it to you.
I depend on GodsGrace to live my life, maybe you and some others do not.
Romans 6:14
Romans 11:6
James 4:6
Hebrews 4:16

Maybe you could explain what self-saving legalism is?
I surely don't know.
I don't believe I've read anyone on these threads that believes he has the capability of saving himself.

Of course you could stop being born again.
Jesus said so, as stated in my prior post.
The Prodigal Son also comes to mind:
Luke 15:24 The son was dead, but had come to life AGAIN....
Again means a second time. It means he was saved, lost then saved AGAIN.
Jesus stated this.

I tend to believe what Jesus states.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Hopefully, you can see the contradiction in your statements.

There is no “ contradiction” .....you know that I would never say that anybody could ever keep the Commandments PERFECTLY!

Here is what I am saying.....One is not Saved by keeping the Commandments...One does not have to keep them or try to keep them in order to obtain Salvation or maintain Salvation....Only Two things SAVE us—- “Christ’s” Blood and “ OUR” Faith.....

The best way to increase one’s percentage of Law keeping—- even though it does not save but gives you a more blessed life the better you “ DO” keep it , is to STOP TRYING! Try “ THIS” instead —- Concentrate on KNOWING HIM ! If you come to “Know” God, that is the secret to “ Loving” God.....If you Love God and allow that Love to be the Engine that drives your Obedience, you will *FIND YOURSELF* doing God’s Will,without having to try so hard...it will come naturally ....you need to “ Let go and Let God” ......it takes Faith......it takes Trust, and that is the Main Thing That God Wants to see....Start Trusting instead of Trying....You’ll do a better job of True Obedience and Commandment Keeping by ACCiDENT than the guy who is “ sweating it out” — constantly trying to “ make himself worthy” by a Commandment - Keeping life That has its origins in fear instead of gratitude and Love .....One must understand that we can NEVER “clean ourselves up” and become “ worthy” —— we are * MADE WORTHY” by our Faith in the Blood Of The Lamb....when you realize that you do not “HAVE” to keep the Commandments , you paradoxically do a BETTER job of KEEPING them ...yeah, Christianity is crazy that way....just the OPPOSITE of what the World and confused, insecure Believers think....

 

[GodsGrace]

The fear of God within seals them against that action.

This is possible.
But according to all those OSASers a person that fears God is most probably not born again.
They know who is and who is not. I guess.

Also, I'd say that one could stay with God out of fear,,,personally I think those that come to God in the manner that is taught in the NT do so out of love for Him.

But, anything is possible.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Here is what I am saying.....One is not Saved by keeping the Commandments...One does not have to keep them or try to keep them in order to obtain Salvation or maintain Salvation....Only Two things SAVE us—- “Christ’s” Blood and “ OUR” Faith.

Why do you keep responding to MY posts with this???? Like I said, I think you're smart enough to know that I'm not making any argument whatsoever for works earning or keeping salvation. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here. You don't seem dumb, so stop responding to my posts as if I've been saying works earn your salvation and keep it. Show me you're smart enough to actually understand what I've been saying. Works DO NOT earn salvation. I have never believed that they do.