What does it mean to be born again?

[Episkopos]

As I and others have been trying to bring, we have been crucified with Christ but then we need to learn to walk in that. It's a question of what and how much of that we are walking in in real time, sowing to the spirit, not the flesh. There certainly is an aspect of growth and increase that needs to be happening.

Basically...you are saying that there is a premise...and we are trying to live up to that premise????? But you have to understand Paul and what He is saying first. Claiming a verse for yourself...that isn't yet true for you..should lead you to seek God...not name and claim something because a religious impulse from the outer man goads you into claiming it for yourself. The irony is that you are trying to claim a verse about being crucified...with an uncrucified outer man. How do you untangle that ball of wool? As SBG said....you need to spit it out.

Please don't let anyone lead you astray with flattery and rob you of THE ONLY GOSPEL THAT CAN SAVE, with pats on the back.

The only flattery here is the religious molly-coddling we saw yesterday among the crows.

Nobody is denying the reality that we are still battling the flesh and the devil. But don't you know the devil is a LIAR and father of LIES....it's like he didn't get the memo that Jesus is now ruling, not him....once again this is by faith not necessarily by sight. Our task now is to, by the SPIRIT, enforce the rule of Christ against a relentless usurper who lives in our flesh.

But you are falling for one of the lies...by assuming something for yourself that is not yet yours...by your own admission. There is NO logic whatsoever in saying you have something you don't have yet.

I've heard/read testimonies of those who have victory or have been baptized in fire, that is not me by experience, but I only get a sense that is entering another level in the Lord. I don't know how to conceptualize it and was hoping we could try and see if the Lord would help us and bring His light, as we discuss those things, but unfortunately Epi doesn't want to go there right now.

I won't compromise with the flesh. That is the secret to growth in Christ. But your compromising is in the way of seeing how basic this is.

And right now his understanding of the foundation of the gospel is UNSPIRITUAL and has no grasp of what FAITH is. Sorry I don't mean to offend anyone, but there it is. We are not saved by any other way than by faith.

Quite the opposite. Your outer man has inverted the polarity of what you are typing. So I'll help you translate what your inner man would say if his faith was strong enough.

What your inner man would say to me (if it was free of "big religious sister")...is. Thank you Epi, for exposing the flesh. I just wish I could stand up to my religious ego.

To that inner man I say. Bless you sister...be strong and have FAITH that God will help you to overcome your own flesh. He will give you the strength to carry your own cross in humility and godly fear until you are ready to lose your soul life completely at the cross of Christ.

We are not saved by any other way than by faith. So have faith, be strong in the Lord...and resist your outer man religious ego. Spit him out!

(see I'm speaking to something that yet isn't as if it is) ;)

 

[Johann]

I wasn’t looking for an apology actually. I want you to reject that stupid and useless way of life we were taught to operate in and just speak sincerely with us.
It’s okay to disagree. It’s okay for you to insist your flesh has been crucified. But because I see mine is not yet, it does not mean I’m a drugged out and delusional liar. I am your sister. I’m being as truthful as I possibly can with you. What part of you has died? It’s a fair question. I only know of my flesh needing to die, which is to say my ego, selfishness, pettiness, resentfulness, my own will, my self interest. I read it as that is why I pick up my cross to follow. So my question to you is, what part of you was crucified?

I am not going to answer any and all of your questions, I have given you the scripture passage, where it CLEARLY states our old man is crucified....ALL of it, not just "parts"

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
συνεσταυρωθη

V-API-3S
συσταυρόω
to impale in company with
Part of Speech: Verb
Tense: Aorist
Voice: Passive
Mood: Indicative
Person: third [he/she/it]
Number: Singular


Rom_6:6; Χριστῷ συνεσταύρωμαι, by the death of Christ upon the cross I have become utterly estranged from (dead to) my former habit of feeling and action, Gal_2:19 (20).


....of which you are in denial of, of course I am still battling with the flesh, does that make me unborn? Am I so spiritual that I'm no earthly good, sitting on a cloud with a halo smoking a peace pipe?

You think I don't have questions, have it all "figured out?" As I read the Scriptures I can't kick against the pricks, I accept it, or reject it

 

[mailmandan]

..They are easily reconciled, forasmuch as the one discourseth of the cause of our justification before God; the other, of the signs of justification before men. The one speaks of the imputation of righteousness; the other, of the declaration of righteousness. The one speaks of the office of faith; the other, of the quality of faith. The one speaks of the justification of the person; the other, of the faith of that person. The one speaks of Abraham to be justified; the other, of Abraham already justified..

Folks need to understand that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Well bring the scrips for that sister and let us take a look. Or maybe start another thread about this would probably be better.

There would be no point in that at this time. It would go exactly nowhere. He will start whatever threads he is led to start but I don’t see him doing it when there is so much flesh and animosity to the gospel. And that’s a shame because God has given him so much that is good.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

of course I am still battling with the flesh, does that make me unborn?

Of course not. My question was: what part of you was crucified. We’ve determined it wasnt your flesh. So…what was crucified? It’s a sincere, honest and valid question.

 

[Lizbeth]

Oh my gosh, once again, to trust God and hope in a promise is NOT a lack of faith. Yes, Abraham believed God. Abraham did NOT assert that he already was the father of many since God promised it would happen. Because Abraham did not assert that he was already the father of many before he even had a child, does that mean he lacked trust?? Why then, if I see my flesh Is not crucified yet do you insist it means I don’t trust God to do it?

We don't have to pit one thing against the other, it is not always a case of mutual exclusivity with things that appear contradictory but aren't. But the flesh can't be crucified any other way than by faith, by the Spirit, and submitting to the righteousness of God. We need to apprehend what has already been accomplished for us. Didn't Jesus say it is finished? TRUTH trumps facts on the ground, so to speak, but our job is to, by the Spirit, bring the facts on the ground into line with TRUTH. Enforce the truth. Don't deny the TRUTH and then try to make truth manifest without the truth.

There are those who unfortunately are splicing and dicing the gospel up into tiny little pieces and ending up with HASH. (shaking my head)

 

[Episkopos]

We don't have to pit one thing against the other, it is not always a case of mutual exclusivity with things that appear contradictory but aren't. But the flesh can't be crucified any other way than by faith, by the Spirit, and submitting to the righteousness of God. We need to apprehend what has already been accomplished for us. Didn't Jesus say it is finished? TRUTH trumps facts on the ground, so to speak, but our job is to, by the Spirit, bring the facts on the ground into line with TRUTH. Enforce the truth. Don't deny the TRUTH and then try to make truth manifest without the truth.

There are those who unfortunately are splicing and dicing the gospel up into tiny little pieces and ending up with HASH. (shaking my head)

It's wiser to learn humility than to try realizing just how advanced you are. Do a study on humility. Then do a study on being lifted up in one's own estimation.

Which one is biblical and right? What would a righteous person do?

 

[Episkopos]

The question is always...why can't it be both? Why can't God receive my inner man AND my rebellious outer man.

The answer is that God only gives grace to the inner man..the humble part of us. But He resists the proud...the outer man part of us.

This is as basic as it gets. There is no maturity possible without leaving the flesh behind. Clinging to the flesh produces iniquity...a wilful sin that is not covered by the sacrifice of Jesus. It must be repented of...spit out. Or else it will be Jesus doing the spitting out...the outer man and all that clings to it.

 

[Johann]

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

Well said brother, there is a veering off from the biblical doctrines we hold dear, and a "new" gospel is being introduced on this Forum foreign to Scriptures..
As you have seen in my post, there are those denying the imputation of God's righteousness in Christ, and only "parts" of us are not crucified at all.

Then we have those that advocate we are AS holy as God is, or relatively. Or maybe not, maybe both.
And here I am very transparent, I still battle with my flesh, does that make me unborn, not regenerated at all? Not part of the elect, just drifting along with no purpose at all?

Yesterday I asked you that question brother, and Hinei! I had three different "interpretations" given me....maybe, maybe not, maybe both.

I still count you as my brother in Christ, transparency is the key, like I have said, I am a "late-starter" but confused I ain't.

Would seem that all the years of studying the scriptures in Hebrew and Greek is well worth it.
J.

 

[Lizbeth]

There would be no point in that at this time. It would go exactly nowhere. He will start whatever threads he is led to start but I don’t see him doing it when there is so much flesh and animosity to the gospel. And that’s a shame because God has given him so much that is good.

I was thinking you might like to introduce the topic.....anyone could post though of course. Only if you were to feel inclined.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

We don't have to pit one thing against the other, it is not always a case of mutual exclusivity with things that appear contradictory but aren't. But the flesh can't be crucified any other way than by faith, by the Spirit, and submitting to the righteousness of God. We need to apprehend what has already been accomplished for us. Didn't Jesus say it is finished? TRUTH trumps facts on the ground, so to speak, but our job is to, by the Spirit, bring the facts on the ground into line with TRUTH. Enforce the truth. Don't deny the TRUTH and then try to make truth manifest without the truth.

There are those who unfortunately are splicing and dicing the gospel up into tiny little pieces and ending up with HASH. (shaking my head)

I have no idea what the heck you’ve said here. It’s like…you want to have some sort of struggle to come to an agreement whereby your ideas are accepted by me. Or by Epi? Why are you talking about crucifying yourself when you are already crucified, as you have so vociferously argued that you are? It’s like you are saying….my flesh has already been crucified even though it appears to everyone, including myself, that this is not the case, as with that time I attacked a praying man in the prayer forum. But even though my flesh runs amok over a praying man, and even though they had to put me in a month long timeout because of it, that flesh has been crucified and how dare anyone say it hasn’t been! The fact is that, yes, I ran around in my shrieking flesh, but the “truth“ that my flesh has already been crucified trumps the plainly seen fact that my flesh runs out of any kind of control and rules over me.
That is crazy. It really is. There is no ground of reality in what you keep insisting on.
And listen, you will live forever if you’ve been given the down payment of the Spirit. That’s settled. So I can’t quite get at why all the make believe is necessary to you. Even Johann just insisted that even though he still struggles with his flesh, it doesn’t mean he’s not born again, as if anyone claimed he wasn’t. So why not move on then…?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I was thinking you might like to introduce the topic.....anyone could post though of course. Only if you were to feel inclined.

It would benefit no one. You would just keep attacking.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Well said brother, there is a veering off from the biblical doctrines we hold dear, and a "new" gospel is being introduced on this Forum foreign to Scriptures..

Just because the doctrines you hold dear are not according to the gospel does not mean a new gospel is being introduced.

 

[Episkopos]

Just because the doctrines you hold dear are not according to the gospel does not mean a new gospel is being introduced.

What's new is the New Covenant...that people claim to have entered into... but not really. It's "fake it till you make it" for these. It's live the lie until its no longer a lie (hopefully).

 

[Lizbeth]

Basically...you are saying that there is a premise...and we are trying to live up to that premise????? But you have to understand Paul and what He is saying first. Claiming a verse for yourself...that isn't yet true for you..should lead you to seek God...not name and claim something because a religious impulse from the outer man goads you into claiming it for yourself. The irony is that you are trying to claim a verse about being crucified...with an uncrucified outer man. How do you untangle that ball of wool? As SBG said....you need to spit it out.




The only flattery here is the religious molly-coddling we saw yesterday among the crows.


But you are falling for one of the lies...by assuming something for yourself that is not yet yours...by your own admission. There is NO logic whatsoever in saying you have something you don't have yet.


I won't compromise with the flesh. That is the secret to growth in Christ. But your compromising is in the way of seeing how basic this is.

Quite the opposite. Your outer man has inverted the polarity of what you are typing. So I'll help you translate what your inner man would say if his faith was strong enough.

What your inner man would say to me (if it was free of "big religious sister")...is. Thank you Epi, for exposing the flesh. I just wish I could stand up to my religious ego.

To that inner man I say. Bless you sister...be strong and have FAITH that God will help you to overcome your own flesh. He will give you the strength to carry your own cross in humility and godly fear until you are ready to lose your soul life completely at the cross of Christ.

We are not saved by any other way than by faith. So have faith, be strong in the Lord...and resist your outer man religious ego. Spit him out!

(see I'm speaking to something that yet isn't as if it is) ;)

Doesn't seem that some understand what faith is.......and there is avoidance of acknowledging or addressing the scripture that says faith is the evidence of things not seen, the substance of things hoped for. Not the first time it's being ignored. Not to mention it's obvious by your doctrine that it is not even understood.

So very sad that denying self and carrying one's cross in humility and godly fear is being touted here as a useless way of life. What a discouraging thing for someone to say. Is God not working everything together for the good of those who love Him? Not the first time I've wondered if I'm among Christians with you two.

I'm well aware of what my flesh is. You keep forgetting our past conversation and continue with false assumptions. Oh well.

 

[Johann]

Of course not. My question was: what part of you was crucified. We’ve determined it wasnt your flesh. So…what was crucified? It’s a sincere, honest and valid question.

"We have determined that it was NOT the flesh?"

Calling scriptures as lies is not going to fair thee good.

Gal 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts: by the flesh is meant, not the natural body to be macerated and afflicted with fastings, watchings, &c. but the corruption of nature, the old man and carnal heart. The Vulgate Latin version reads, "their own flesh"; and so do the Syriac and Ethiopic versions; their concern lying with their own, and not with the corruptions, affections, and lusts of others. By "the affections and lusts" are intended, not the natural affections and passions of the soul, and the desires of it; but its vile and inordinate affections, its corrupt inclinations, evil desires, and deceitful lusts; all which are "crucified" first "with Christ", as the Arabic version reads; see Rom_6:6 and which are so abolished, done away, and destroyed, by the sacrifice of Christ, that the damning power of them over his people is entirely gone.


Read that, ENTIRELY GONE!


And in consequence of this crucifixion of the body of sin, with Christ upon the cross, when he finished and made an end of it, sin, with its passions and lusts, is crucified by the Spirit of God in regeneration and sanctification; so that it loses its governing power, and has not the dominion it had before:

not but that the flesh, or corrupt nature, with its evil affections, and carnal lusts, are still in being, and are alive; as a person fastened to a cross may be alive, though he cannot act and move as before, being under restraints, so the old man, though crucified, and under the restraints of mighty grace, and cannot reign and govern as before, yet is alive, and acts, and operates, and oftentimes has great sway and influence;.................yet impaled!

but whereas he is deprived of his reigning power, he is said to be crucified: and though this act is ascribed to them that are Christ's, yet not as done by them in their own strength, who are not able to grapple with one corruption, but as under the influence of the grace of Christ, and through the power of his Spirit; see Rom_8:13.

*You deny that "we" are crucified sun-stauros WITH Christ, it was Paul only, not us
*You deny the flesh, that the flesh is crucified,

And you want me to concur with you, shall I give you concrete evidence, in Greek, as to the truth of this?

And so you deny the infallible word of the Lord.

Don't "suck me in into your camp" which are full of half truths/half lies.

And now if you will pardon me, stand off, I have no business with you and your meiven and assumed talmid.

The Scriptures have been presented to you, and you don't accept it, only "in parts"

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Johann says his old man has been crucified. What is his old man?
And does this mean, since he must now pick up his cross, that he needs to be crucified a second time?
He refuses to answer me and I think it’s because he can’t.
Maybe he agrees with Apak that it’s only a “figurative” crucifixion he underwent?

 

[Episkopos]

Doesn't seem that some understand what faith is.......and there is avoidance of acknowledging or addressing the scripture that says faith is the evidence of things not seen, the substance of things hoped for. Not the first time it's being ignored. Not to mention it's obvious by your doctrine that it is not even understood.

I actually exercise my faith...in reality...not only by claiming to. A real faith gets God's attention. A human belief is what you are talking about. God does not respond to that. Faith is good...but beliefs are just religious suppositions...and that is what you are presenting here as faith.

So very sad that denying self and carrying one's cross in humility and godly fear is being touted here as a useless way of life.

This is an admission on your part...what your inner man is trying to tell you about your own efforts.

What a discouraging thing for someone to say. Is God not working everything together for the good of those who love Him? Not the first time I've wondered if I'm among Christians with you two.

Not religious dogmatic adherents of a scheme that encourages rebellion and iniquity. No, not that kind. But those who look to God and hope for Him...in humility and the fear of the Lord.

I'm well aware of what my flesh is. You keep forgetting our past conversation and continue with false assumptions. Oh well.

You had me fooled. There is a redeemed inner man in you...but your religious ego flesh is controlling you. The tail is wagging the dog. You have a "fake it till you make it" approach that doesn't work. God will never receive a sacrifice unless it is the flesh on the altar...not the flesh looking for a blessing.

Stay trapped in your verses you claim justify you. You are in a jail of your own making. It is only the truth that sets you free...not your beliefs.

 

[Lizbeth]

Well said brother, there is a veering off from the biblical doctrines we hold dear, and a "new" gospel is being introduced on this Forum foreign to Scriptures..
As you have seen in my post, there are those denying the imputation of God's righteousness in Christ, and only "parts" of us are not crucified at all.

Then we have those that advocate we are AS holy as God is, or relatively. Or maybe not, maybe both.
And here I am very transparent, I still battle with my flesh, does that make me unborn, not regenerated at all? Not part of the elect, just drifting along with no purpose at all?

Yesterday I asked you that question brother, and Hinei! I had three different "interpretations" given me....maybe, maybe not, maybe both.

I still count you as my brother in Christ, transparency is the key, like I have said, I am a "late-starter" but confused I ain't.

Would seem that all the years of studying the scriptures in Hebrew and Greek is well worth it.
J.

Yes, the more we grow in the Lord, the more we are aware of our shortcomings and that in our flesh dwells no good thing. We sure weren't promised a life of being comfortable and self satisfied with ourselves. But it's better to visit a house of mourning than a house of mirth. And blessed are you who mourn now.....

Unfortunately they are throwing the baby out with the bathwater here, because of not being in spirit with these things. In spite of assertions to the contrary....makes me wonder if some are not rightly interpreting whatever experience they have had with the Lord. I wish they would at least consider that possibility.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And now if you will pardon me, stand off, I have no business with you and your meiven

Sure you do. You have something to do with me (and him) every time you come into every single thread he starts and begin to encourage and hold the coats and mutter and rave about heavily drugged, liars, delusional, evil speaking, blah blah blah.