What does it mean to be born again?

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Lizbeth

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I mean that when men read where Paul wrote, “I am crucified” they assume and claim it applies to them, even though Paul was talking about himself. They say, I am crucified, how dare you say I’m not when Paul said I am! And they use the other verse too, to claim that they are crucified.
We need to understand FAITH sister. Faith is of the Holy Spirit, not of ourselves. We are to walk by faith, not by sight. Faith is the EVIDENCE of things NOT SEEN, the SUBSTANCE of things HOPED FOR.

GREAT is the MYSTERY of Godliness. Knowing Christ, salvation, is much more than a mere mental belief or assent of the carnal mind. It's a mystery....miraculous.

All things HAVE been put under His feet, but we do not yet SEE all things put under Him. I believe that has meaning on a personal level as well as on a macro scale of this world.
 

stunnedbygrace

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I'm not biting, so it's futile bringing "my past" up and I stand by what I have said.
These last couple of weeks I have realized, with clarity, as I am getting older, to crucify "me"....there might be times the flesh is stirred, but pride must go, and I am open to correction, are you?
Tsk. You think it’s crucifying your flesh to suggest that someone may be on heavy medication? You think it’s virtuous to say “Im not going to bite” while you say “there might be some truth to“ them being on heavy medication because they are delusional Liars? That’s not virtuous and the fact that you think it is is proves you DONT have any discernment.

You suggest I (and Epi) may be on heavy medication and when I deal with it you think I bring a sledgehammer to a water gun fight. And I’m not even addressing it to defend myself but rather to try to help you!
 
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Lizbeth

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even though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job were in its midst, by their own righteousness they could only save themselves,” declares the Lord God.

You will remain in the same muddle unless you understand that some verses talk of righteousness (and that God accepts righteous men, who will be among the nations during the thousand years) and some verses talk about holiness (and that God is pleased with these men and they rule and reign over the righteous in the nations.) The filthy rags verse is not calling Noah, Daniel and Job to be filthy. It is not calling the righteous filthy.

You can never, ever, ever arrive at holiness by disparaging righteousness.
By FAITH sister.....those three all had FAITH. It is by faith that we are saved and always has been even before the cross....Abraham believed God, though he did not yet receive the promise. Just like Cornelius, their righteousness attracted the favour of God, so He granted those OT saints the promise of salvation. But they WITHOUT US WOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT.

Truth is not arrived at by analyzing and overanalyzing with the carnal mind. The carnal mind always leads astray....it is enmity with God. We need the Holy Spirit to just simply ILLUMINATE the scrips to us, and that way too HE is glorified, not us. It is not of our own.
 
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Johann

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Tsk. You think it’s crucifying your flesh to suggest that someone may be on heavy medication? You think it’s virtuous to say “Im not going to bite” while you say “there might be some truth to“ them being on heavy medication because they are delusional? That’s not virtuous and the fact that you think it is is proves you DONT have any discernment.
Since you want to push, and push hard, ARE you on heavy medication? You gave a brief testimony on your condition, on what meds are you?
If you are on NO meds I will retract my statement..
 

stunnedbygrace

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We need to understand FAITH sister. Faith is of the Holy Spirit, not of ourselves. We are to walk by faith, not by sight. Faith is the EVIDENCE of things NOT SEEN, the SUBSTANCE of things HOPED FOR.

GREAT is the MYSTERY of Godliness. Knowing Christ, salvation, is much more than a mere mental belief or assent of the carnal mind. It's a mystery....miraculous.

All things HAVE been put under His feet, but we do not yet SEE all things put under Him. I believe that has meaning on a personal level as well as on a macro scale of this world.
Once again, ad nauseum, to hope in a promise that you don’t have and see yet is NOT a lack of trust.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Since you want to push, and push hard, ARE you on heavy medication? You gave a brief testimony on your condition, on what meds are you?
If you are on NO meds I will retract my statement..
I’m on no meds. I don’t know what condition you are speaking of…do you mean because I pulled my lower back out? It was severe pain but I did not go to a doctor and took no pain meds.
 
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Johann

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I’m on no meds. I don’t know what condition you are speaking of…do you mean because I pulled my lower back out? It was severe pain but I did not go to a doctor and took no pain meds.
Then I apologize for making that rash statement.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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By FAITH sister.....those three all had FAITH. It is by faith that we are saved and always has been even before the cross....Abraham believed God, though he did not yet receive the promise. Just like Cornelius, their righteousness attracted the favour of God, so He granted those OT saints the promise of salvation. But they WITHOUT US WOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT.

Truth is not arrived at by analyzing and overanalyzing with the carnal mind. The carnal mind always leads astray....it is enmity with God. We need the Holy Spirit to just simply ILLUMINATE the scrips to us, and that way too HE is glorified, not us. It is not of our own.
Oh my gosh, once again, to trust God and hope in a promise is NOT a lack of faith. Yes, Abraham believed God. Abraham did NOT assert that he already was the father of many since God promised it would happen. Because Abraham did not assert that he was already the father of many before he even had a child, does that mean he lacked trust?? Why then, if I see my flesh Is not crucified yet do you insist it means I don’t trust God to do it?
 

stunnedbygrace

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Then I apologize for making that rash statement.
Well that’s good. But you made the statement about Epi too. And as far as I know, he hasn’t shared any great physical pain he was dealing with so…it wasn’t for the reason of him being in physical pain that you suggested he also might be on heavy meds. So what am I supposed to do there? Ignore it and let you save face regarding it? Or should I keep “going hard” on insisting you speak with us without those silly guiles?
 

Episkopos

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Oh my gosh, once again, to trust God and hope in a promise is NOT a lack of faith. Yes, Abraham believed God. Abraham did NOT assert that he already was the father of many since God promised it would happen. Because Abraham did not assert that he was already the father of many before he even had a child, does that mean he lacked trust?? Why then, if I see my flesh Is not crucified yet do you insist it means I don’t trust God to do it?
What a wise post. I wish the immature here could see that you are speaking with much more wisdom than they can take in. Bless you sister...for your patience, kindness, and will, in right doing before the Lord and toward the truth. :)
 

Lizbeth

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even though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job were in its midst, by their own righteousness they could only save themselves,” declares the Lord God.

You will remain in the same muddle unless you understand that some verses talk of righteousness (and that God accepts righteous men, who will be among the nations during the thousand years) and some verses talk about holiness (and that God is pleased with these men and they rule and reign over the righteous in the nations.) The filthy rags verse is not calling Noah, Daniel and Job to be filthy. It is not calling the righteous filthy.

You can never, ever, ever arrive at holiness by disparaging righteousness.
Rom 3:10-12

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Remember it wasn't Abraham's righteousness that was credited to him for righteousness, it was his faith.

I have a hunch that you and Episkopos believe Catholics are saved who live righteously and follow the rules (correct me if I'm wrong). But that is not right......many Jews in the time of Jesus were doing likewise, and I'm sure were sincere in their efforts to obey the Law, but it was even to them the gospel of salvation came FIRST. Even righteous Jews still needed the blood of the Lamb to wash away their filthiness, by faith, as we all do. Job was considered very righteous by the Lord, yet the problem was that he was righteous in his own eyes and had up to then only heard of God by the hearing of the ear....not seeing Him face to face by revelation of God/Spirit through faith that is of the Spirit. Paul in Rom. 10 spoke of the Jews as seeking to establish their own righteousness rather than submitting to the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD/CHRIST (by faith). Elsewhere it says the Jews did not combine their efforts with FAITH.

That I "disparage" righteousness is another false accusation or misunderstanding of what is being said.
 
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Johann

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Being born again doesn't automatically guarantee ones entrance into the kingdom, but it does guarantee that one may receive the power to make the right choices according to God's will and purposes. These choices come at the leading and prompting of the holy Spirit therefore they are not derived from within, but without. It is those choices and right decisions that determine dest

Ignore it and let you save face regarding it? Or should I keep “going hard” on insisting you speak with us without those silly guiles?
You want me to apologize to Epi, of course I will.
Does not mean you are way off target re biblical doctrines, which is very apparent for all to see, and you have a way in twisting, not only the scriptures, but other members words, to save face.
 
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Episkopos

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"Remember it wasn't Abraham's righteousness that was credited to him for righteousness, it was his faith."

This statement is a beauty...the statement of the day so far. How a mind can conjure up such a ridiculously muddled statement and pretend to be serious is beyond me. Religion does CRAZY things to people's heads. I would advise against religiosity that turns logic on its head.

Righteous is as righteous does. It's still doing righteousness if by faith or by works. If ALL our righteousness is as filthy rags so is our own faith. So there is NO logic...just religious mumbo-jumbo. This above statement in red comes from a filthy rags type of righteousness. Call it out. ALL OUR righteousness... means ALL....even the righteousness we say is God's that we CLAIM for ourselves. It's all filthy. It's filthy because it is tainted with ego.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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I have a hunch that you and Episkopos believe Catholics are saved who live righteously and follow the rules (correct me if I'm wrong).
Liz, there is so much more to Gods judgement than you have yet seen. He is far MORE merciful and right than your indoctrination has taught you. And your indoctrination of leaven will prevent your ever seeing it unless you spit it out.
 

Episkopos

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Liz, there is so much more to Gods judgement than you have yet seen. He is far MORE merciful and right than your indoctrination has taught you. And your indoctrination of leaven will prevent your ever seeing it unless you spit it out.
SBG is on a roll today! :woohoo!:
 

Lizbeth

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What a wise post. I wish the immature here could see that you are speaking with much more wisdom than they can take in. Bless you sister...for your patience, kindness, and will, in right doing before the Lord and toward the truth. :)
As I and others have been trying to bring, we have been crucified with Christ but then we need to learn to walk in that. It's a question of what and how much of that we are walking in in real time, sowing to the spirit, not the flesh. There certainly is an aspect of growth and increase that needs to be happening.

Please don't let anyone lead you astray with flattery and rob you of THE ONLY GOSPEL THAT CAN SAVE, with pats on the back. Nobody is denying the reality that we are still battling the flesh and the devil. But don't you know the devil is a LIAR and father of LIES....it's like he didn't get the memo that Jesus is now ruling, not him....once again this is by faith not necessarily by sight. Our task now is to, by the SPIRIT, enforce the rule of Christ against a relentless usurper who lives in our flesh.

I've heard/read testimonies of those who have victory or have been baptized in fire, that is not me by experience, but I only get a sense that is entering another level in the Lord. I don't know how to conceptualize it and was hoping we could try and see if the Lord would help us and bring His light, as we discuss those things, but unfortunately Epi doesn't want to go there right now. And right now his understanding of the foundation of the gospel is UNSPIRITUAL and has no grasp of what FAITH is. Sorry I don't mean to offend anyone, but there it is. We are not saved by any other way than by faith.
 
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Johann

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"Remember it wasn't Abraham's righteousness that was credited to him for righteousness, it was his faith."

This statement is a beauty...the statement of the day so far. How a mind can conjure up such a ridiculously muddled statement and pretend to be serious is beyond me. Religion does CRAZY things to people's heads. I would advise against religiosity that turns logic on its head.

Righteous is as righteous does. It's still doing righteousness if by faith or by works. If ALL our righteousness is as filthy rags so is our own faith. So there is NO logic...just religious mumbo-jumbo. This above statement in red comes from a filthy rags type of righteousness. Call it out. ALL OUR righteousness... means ALL....even the righteousness we say is God's that we CLAIM for ourselves. It's all filthy. It's filthy because it is tainted with ego.
Ol' Epi....

Abraham believed God; i.e. the promises of God: that he would be his shield and exceeding great reward, Gen_15:1; that he would give him an heir of his body, Gen_15:4; that he would multiply his seed, Gen_15:5, whereby he understood not only his fleshly seed, but also the Messiah, the Saviour of the world, which was come of his loins; He took on him the seed of Abraham, Heb_2:16.

And besides these promises in Gen_15:1-21, he believed that promise which was made him, Gen_12:3, That in him and his seed all families of the earth should be blessed. That in these promises the Messiah is understood, is evident from Gal_3:8,16; and that Abraham had an eye to him is evident, without exception, from

Joh_8:56.
It was counted unto him for righteousness; i.e. he was justified thereby: to have faith imputed for righteousness, and to be justified by faith, is the same thing. Faith is not our righteousness materially, but objectively and organically, as it apprehends and implies the righteousness of Christ, which is the matter of our justification.

Our adversaries the papists oppose the imputation of Christ’s righteousness to us; they cavil at the very word, and call it putative righteousness: and yet the apostle useth the word ten times in this chapter, and in the same sense that word ten times in this chapter, and in the same sense that we take it.


But how shall we reconcile our apostle with St. James, about the manner of Abraham’s justification: he says expressly, Jas_2:21, that Abraham our father was justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac; and thence he infers, Rom_4:24, that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

They are easily reconciled, forasmuch as the one discourseth of the cause of our justification before God; the other, of the signs of justification before men. The one speaks of the imputation of righteousness; the other, of the declaration of righteousness. The one speaks of the office of faith; the other, of the quality of faith. The one speaks of the justification of the person; the other, of the faith of that person. The one speaks of Abraham to be justified; the other, of Abraham already justified.

Yes?
 

stunnedbygrace

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You want me to apologize to Epi, of course I will.
Does not mean you are way off target re biblical doctrines, which is very apparent for all to see, and you have a way in twisting, not only the scriptures, but other members words, to save face.
I wasn’t looking for an apology actually. I want you to reject that stupid and useless way of life we were taught to operate in and just speak sincerely with us.
It’s okay to disagree. It’s okay for you to insist your flesh has been crucified. But because I see mine is not yet, it does not mean I’m a drugged out and delusional liar. I am your sister. I’m being as truthful as I possibly can with you. What part of you has died? It’s a fair question. I only know of my flesh needing to die, which is to say my ego, selfishness, pettiness, resentfulness, my own will, my self interest. I read it as that is why I pick up my cross to follow. So my question to you is, what part of you was crucified?
 

Lizbeth

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Liz, there is so much more to Gods judgement than you have yet seen. He is far MORE merciful and right than your indoctrination has taught you. And your indoctrination of leaven will prevent your ever seeing it unless you spit it out.
Well bring the scrips for that sister and let us take a look. Or maybe start another thread about this would probably be better. I have no vested interest and it's no more my wish than it is God's will that any man perish....yet sadly we read in scripture that many will...and only a remnant will be saved.

Jesus said no man can come to the Father except by Him. There is no other name under heaven by which man can be saved. If any man have not the spirit he is none of His.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Please don't let anyone lead you astray with flattery and rob you of THE ONLY GOSPEL THAT CAN SAVE, with pats on the back.
That’s you trying to convince me that Epi flatters me to have me agree with him? It makes me all the more firm that I will stick with my brother when I see that there is a campaign underway to work against unity, to divide rather than build up together. He does not flatter for the sake of flattery. That’s not who he is. He has left behind the guiles of the world and so have I.
Are you saying the only gospel that can save me is the one that says I’m delusional and lost if I see and say my flesh is not crucified yet?
 
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