What Do The Book of Daniel DECEIVERS Present?!?

[Phoneman777]

Daniel talks of two different events of desecration, that you've lumped all into one. Daniel 8 was future to Daniel, but before Christ. Daniel 9 is after Christ, in 70 AD.

What verses in Daniel 8 do you point to for a "before Christ" desecration?

 

[Bobby Jo]

Really? ... .

Blah, blah, blah.

Let me know when you have something worth saying...
Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

That was when the Grecian Empire began to exercise dominion over the land/country of Judah, i.e. the southern kingdom of the tribes of Israel. Alexandra the Great came and saw but left again. Some 70 or so years later, the Grecian Empire entered and stayed for a period of time.
Babylon on the other hand came, took the people into exile and then left. Why did this occur? Because they did not give the land rest as was required by the Lord.
The Grecian came and added to idolatrous worship in the land.

Daniel 12
4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. ​

... that would be approximate to 1948. Unless the angel is the liar.

Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

To All,

What are the CLUES in 12:4 & 9 that PLACE the end time in the era approximate to 1948?

Well, how about running to and fro? We used sail (using sails to catch the wind), and we used to travel by horse drawn cart. But lately man has been traveling some 60 to 600 miles per hour.

Secondly, if we were fortunate, we had a library nearby, or maybe an Encyclopedia Set in our homes. But now we have INSTANT KNOWLEDGE AT OUR LITERAL FINGER TIPS. You need to figure out how to change the back sparkplugs? Watch a YouTube video. You need to find directions? Look on Google Maps. You need to find when the restaurant closes? Find their Homepage.

Or, -- some apparently contrive ANCIENT fulfillments when the running was from an angry bull; and the knowledge was which leaves NOT to use (nettles) when relieving yourself.


Yep,
Bobby Jo

 

[CharismaticLady]

Start at Genesis_1:1 like I did and continue reading until you find it. But do not stop there, continue reading until you get to Revelation_22:21, and if you did not see the passage, start all over again. Better still, keep repeating this practice until all the whole prophetic words in the Bible becomes crystal clear.

Shalom

Well you should know, shouldn't you? I'm studying this now, and you want me to take a year. That's not very nice.

 

[CharismaticLady]

No it wasn't. The facts prove the Little Horn comes out of one of the four winds, not the horns.

People who've heard of Antiochus the Chump: history majors and Jesuit Futurists
People who've heard of Alex the Great: the entire planet Earth

Yet, somehow, the Chump is supposed to be "exceeding great" beyond Alex, right?

Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven. (directions) 9 And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land.

Don't you see that from the ruler (horn) of one of the directions (winds), the little horn took over three directions, Israel, the Glorious Land, being one of them? What does it matter if it is one of the directions, or a descendant of the ruler of that direction, it has the same outcome? Daniel is so grieved, because this vision is about HIS PEOPLE.

But the real problem is the 2300 evenings and mornings of Daniel 8. You have been taught that these days are years. In prophecy interpretation there is a law of first usage, meaning determining whether these "days" are prophetic as 1 day/1 year; 1 day/1000 years, or a 24 hour day. The first place we see a day counted as evening and morning is in Genesis 1. Now you are going to have to decide if God made the earth as 1 day/billions of years as evolutionist believe; 1 day/1 year; 1 day/1000 years, or a literal 24 hour period. If you choose in error, your Sabbath could be a billion years. ;) I am a creationist and believe God doesn't need billions of years, and He created the earth in 6 days, and rested on the 7th. 2300 24hr days is a little over 6.3 years, the exact account of the first Jewish revolt from 167 BC to 160 BC. Antiochus Epiphanes IV was their torturer. He reigned from 173 BC to 164 BC., defiling the temple, sacrificing a pig to Zeus.

Why are you so set on changing the history of the Jewish people?

This was the first abomination of desolation (Daniel 8) and surrounded the first Jewish revolt against oppression. The second abomination of desolation (70 AD) was in the middle of the second Jewish revolt of oppression from 66 AD to 73 BC (7 years), Daniel 9:26-27. Notice the middle of the week the temple was destroyed.

 

[CharismaticLady]

What verses in Daniel 8 do you point to for a "before Christ" desecration?

See the post above. To answer your question of before Christ was 167 BC to 160 BC concerning the 2300 evenings and mornings (a little over 6 1/3 years.) That is before Christ. You've heard of Hanukkah haven't you? Look up its origin. Of course, I'm say that you will most likely just disregard the facts that this is about Israel and go with the Investigative Judgment theory. I'm not trying to be mean, but, where is that in Scripture? I truly want you to open your mind and be a Berean.

 

[Jay Ross]

Well you should know, shouldn't you? I'm studying this now, and you want me to take a year. That's not very nice.

My dear CharismaticLady, when you ask questions that show you have not comprehended what others have posted or what is actually in the scriptures, and use SDA recollections to frame your starting point, then going back to the start of your studying of the scriptures would be a very good thing. It is not very nice the level of bullying that goes on from certain members either, particularly those who come with the SDA playbook. Also, being a creationist is really the start point of your difficulties in understanding the scriptures and the prophecies. Many years ago I was in your position, but I have come to realise that when in #210, I presented three very different words that have been translated as day, and suggested that it would be profitable to consider that the meanings of these same root base words have very different meanings should have prompted you into researching the actual meaning of the words in the Hebrew Text. It seems to me that you are accepting the translations as being infallible but the reality is that the translations have many contextual errors scattered throughout the translations themselves.

It has take me many years of studying the scriptures to come to the understanding that I have presently reached, and my understanding my still need to change as new revelation comes over time.

Paul in Romans 11:25-26 makes reference to the Daniel 8:14 passage and the context of both passages endorses the idea of the trampling occurring over a very extended time period. Paul prophetically suggest that the Jews will not be redeemed until the fullness in time of the heathen gentiles has reached its completion, after the period of the decreed time is finished. From Hosea 6:1-3 we know that Israel will not be redeemed/gathered back to the lord until the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers during the first two ages of the existence of Israel will be for a further two ages/days of the Lord, i.e. the visitation is for around 2,000 or so years. If there are around 2,000 or so years of the sanctuary and the hosts being trampled after the birth of Christ, then logically, it is very difficult to justify your position of the time span being just 2,300 days. You are out by a time factor of 365.35 times.

Now if we accept the lesson of the fig tree in matt 24:32, then from when the fig tree begins to bud leaves again, until the Summer Season Harvest will begin is a period of around 91 plus years depending on the weather and the conditions are just right for the tree to begin budding again. Using the above, we now know the approximate time when this age will end and the Millennium Age will begin. Then subtracting the 2,300 years from this date, we then have an approximate understanding of when the trampling of the sanctuary and the hosts began. The question then is, when did the Grecian empire armies return to occupy and have dominion over the Land of Judah? If we can establish that the Grecian Empire began having dominion over the Land of Judah some time around 260-250 BC, then the Maccabee uprising is not the solution to our understanding of the Daniel 8:14 prophecy.

Shalom

PS: - I was being nice, by the way. I could have been more cutting in my comments to you.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... It is not very nice the levelling of ...

... handwavium that some pass for Scripture "interpretation".

They can't arrive to any SPECIFICS because their version of "puzzle pieces" don't fit the shape or colors of the surrounding pieces. And they don't dare refute the SPECIFICS offered by those who UNDERSTAND the Scriptures because their ignorance/mis-information/dis-information/lies/deceptions would be exposed.

Whew,
Bobby Jo

 

[CharismaticLady]

My dear CharismaticLady, when you ask questions that show you have not comprehended what others have posted or what is actually in the scriptures, and use SDA recollections to frame your starting point, then going back to the start of your studying of the scriptures would be a very good thing. It is not very nice the levelling of bullying that goes on from certain members either, particularly those who come with the SDA playbook. Also, being a creationist is really the start point of your difficulties in understanding the scriptures and the prophecies. Many years ago I was in your position, but I have come to realise that when in #210, I presented three very different words that have been translated as day, and suggested that it would be profitable to consider that the meanings of these same root base words have very different meanings should have prompted you into researching the actual meaning of the words in the Hebrew Text. It seems to me that you are accepting the translations as being infallible but the reality is that the translations have many contextual errors scattered throughout the translations themselves.

It has take me many years of studying the scriptures to come to the understanding that I have presently reached, and my understanding my still need to change as new revelation comes over time.

Paul in Romans 11:25-26 makes reference to the Daniel 8:14 passage and the context of both passages endorses the idea of the trampling occurring over a very extended time period. Paul prophetically suggest that the Jews will not be redeemed until the fullness in time of the heathen gentiles has reached its completion, after the period of the decreed time is finished. From Hosea 6:1-3 we know that Israel will not be redeemed/gathered back to the lord until the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers during the first two ages of the existence of Israel will be for a further two ages/days of the Lord, i.e. the visitation is for around 2,000 or so years. If there are around 2,000 or so years of the sanctuary and the hosts being trampled after the birth of Christ, then logically, it is very difficult to justify your position of the time span being just 2,300 days. You are out by a time factor of 365.35 times.

Now if we accept the lesson of the fig tree in matt 24:32, then from when the fig tree begins to bud leaves again, until the Summer Season Harvest will begin is a period of around 91 plus years depending on the weather and the conditions are just right for the tree to begin budding again. Using the above, we now know the approximate time when this age will end and the Millennium Age will begin. Then subtracting the 2,300 years from this date, we then have an approximate understanding of when the trampling of the sanctuary and the hosts began. The question then is, when did the Grecian empire armies return to occupy and have dominion over the Land of Judah? If we can establish that the Grecian Empire began having dominion over the Land of Judah some time around 260-250 BC, then the Maccabee uprising is not the solution to our understanding of the Daniel 8:14 prophecy.

Shalom

PS: - I was being nice, by the way. I could have been more cutting in my comments to you.

Thank you for your thorough response. :)

 

[Enoch111]

... that would be approximate to 1948. Unless the angel is the liar.

Since the angel never mentioned 1948, you are simply making up your own eschatology and suggesting that no one else knows anything about Bible prophecy. Your obsession with 1948 is as foolish as the SDA obsession with 1844.

 

[Jay Ross]

Thank you for your thorough response. :)

Thanks.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Since the angel never mentioned 1948, you are simply making up your own eschatology and suggesting that no one else knows anything about Bible prophecy. Your obsession with 1948 is as foolish as the SDA obsession with 1844.

Something very significant to the Jewish people happened on 1948, so there must be a prophecy somewhere that it fulfills. I just don't know where. As for 1844, you are right. Nothing happened on that day of any importance to the Jewish people, except a publication: Discourse on the Restoration of the Jews.

 

[Jay Ross]

Something very significant to the Jewish people happened on 1948, so there must be a prophecy somewhere that it fulfills. I just don't know where. As for 1844, you are right. Nothing happened on that day of any importance to the Jewish people, except a publication: Discourse on the Restoration of the Jews.

Genesis_15:16 is the prophecy that pointed to the 1948 return to the Land of Canaan. However to understand this prophecy, we need to consider that 15:16 is a very separate prophecy to the 15:13-14 prophecy.

The understanding is centred around the understanding of the Hebrew word וְד֥וֹר wə·ḏō·wr Were the embedded Hebrew root H:1755 has the meaning of "a revolution of time, i.e. An age or generation;". Now if we consider that an age is a little longer than 1000 years, then this prophecy is speaking of a time period of between 3,000 plus - 4,000 plus years when Abraham's descendants would return to the Land of Canaan in the first half of the verse and the second half of the verse speaks of the condition of the Amorite people when they return.

From my understanding of the Chronology of the OT, Isaac was born in the year 2052 BC so the time span from 2052 BC to 1948 AD is exactly 4,000 years in the fourth age of the existence of the Abraham's descendant born to Sarah, his wife. Is it a coincidence that exactly 4,000 years separate these two events? I do not believe so. The prophecy of 15:16 would have been just as correct if the time span had of been 100 years either side of the 4,000 year time span.

However, the precise 4,000 years between these two events, i.e. Isaac's birth and the descendants return to the Land, is confirmed by the other prophecies that lock in this date to God's prophetic timeline.

Shalom

 

[Bobby Jo]

...
The understanding is centred around the understanding of the Hebrew word וְד֥וֹר wə·ḏō·wr Were the embedded Hebrew root H:1755 has the meaning of "a revolution of time, i.e. An age or generation;". Now if we consider that an age is a little longer than 1000 years, ...

I like gymnastics, and I like math, but I don't like math gymnastics. Flips, tumbles, grabbing air, -- is not an accepted mathematical premise. That is unless you have a agenda, a FALSE AGENDA, but an agenda.


Please stop pulling "doctrines" out of your unmentionable orifices,
Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

Since the angel never mentioned 1948, you are simply making up ...

... HISTORY. It's common to those who base their understanding of world events with respect to SCRIPTURE.


Did someone leave the asylum door unlocked?
Bobby Jo

 

[Phoneman777]

Don't you see that from the ruler (horn) of one of the directions (winds), the little horn took over three directions, Israel, the Glorious Land, being one of them? What does it matter if it is one of the directions, or a descendant of the ruler of that direction, it has the same outcome? Daniel is so grieved, because this vision is about HIS PEOPLE.

It was the Medo Persian Ram that attacked in three directions, not the He-goat Greek Empire. However, the "Little Horn" is said to come out of "one of them" - "them" referring to one of the four winds, not the horns. Daniel's prophecies move East to West.

But the real problem is the 2300 evenings and mornings of Daniel 8. You have been taught that these days are years.

The 70 Weeks are "amputated" from the 2,300, which means both prophecies begin at the same time: 457 B.C. What temple and what priesthood was available to be cleansed 2,300 literal days after the decree? None.

In prophecy interpretation there is a law of first usage, meaning determining whether these "days" are prophetic as 1 day/1 year; 1 day/1000 years, or a 24 hour day. The first place we see a day counted as evening and morning is in Genesis 1.

This is a purely subjective "law", seeing that Genesis is historic, not prophetic, and we've several passages in the OT and NT where the pre-incarnate and incarnate Jesus Himself employs the "day/year" principle for prophecy already.

Now you are going to have to decide if God made the earth as 1 day/billions of years as evolutionist believe; 1 day/1 year; 1 day/1000 years, or a literal 24 hour period.

Actually, since the "law of first rule" is purely subjective for reasons above, we can believe God created in six days and rested on the Sabbath, and also that the 2,300 Days is a prophetic symbol which is to be interpreted as years.

2300 24hr days is a little over 6.3 years, the exact account of the first Jewish revolt from 167 BC to 160 BC.

I simply cannot believe how advocates of 2,300 literal days completely ignore the plain words of Gabriel that the 70 Weeks are "amputated" from the 2,300. The moment he launches into his explanation of the 2,300 days which so confused Daniel, he immediately begins with "70 Weeks are amputated"...inescapable...irrefutable...totally Scriptural :) You simply cannot disconnect and transport into the future to some 2nd century B.C. Jewish rebellion and apply those Days to it, when they are intrinsically tied to the beginning of the 70 Weeks, which was centuries before that rebellion.

Antiochus Epiphanes IV was their torturer. He reigned from 173 BC to 164 BC., defiling the temple, sacrificing a pig to Zeus.

And Nebuchadnezzer sacrificed humans in Solomon's temple to the glory of his god Baal, and Titus sacrificed humans in Zerruababel's temple to the glory of Apollo in 70 A.D. Which is an "exceeding great" abomination?

Why are you so set on changing the history of the Jewish people?

I don't, I just put their history in proper prophetic perspective.

This was the first abomination of desolation (Daniel 8) and surrounded the first Jewish revolt against oppression.

It wasn't, because Jesus had almost completed His journey to the Cross when He spoke of the AoD as still being future.

The second abomination of desolation (70 AD) was in the middle of the second Jewish revolt of oppression from 66 AD to 73 BC (7 years), Daniel 9:26-27. Notice the middle of the week the temple was destroyed.

No, that was the AoD that Daniel predicted and of which Jesus reminded the people - when the Romans surrounded the city and planted their Sun God standards on the holy, sacred ground which surrounded Jerusalem - the same Sun god that the Jewish leaders were worshiping that God called the greatest of all Ezekiel's visual abominations. :)

 

[Phoneman777]

See the post above. To answer your question of before Christ was 167 BC to 160 BC concerning the 2300 evenings and mornings (a little over 6 1/3 years.) That is before Christ. You've heard of Hanukkah haven't you? Look up its origin. Of course, I'm say that you will most likely just disregard the facts that this is about Israel and go with the Investigative Judgment theory. I'm not trying to be mean, but, where is that in Scripture? I truly want you to open your mind and be a Berean.

I am a Berean...one who understands that the 2,300 Days and the 70 Weeks have the same starting date because the one is amputated from the other.

Surely, you must understand that the thing that is being amputated has to be smaller than the thing from which it is amputated, and not visa-versa, right?

The 70 Weeks are 490 days which are amputated from the 2,300 days, and since we all recognize that the 70 Weeks are 490 years, that means the 2,300 must also be years, too, because that's the only way the smaller 70 Weeks can be amputated from the larger 2,300 Days.:cool:

 

[Jay Ross]

I like gymnastics, and I like math, but I don't like math gymnastics. Flips, tumbles, grabbing air, -- is not an accepted mathematical premise. That is unless you have a agenda, a FALSE AGENDA, but an agenda.


Please stop pulling "doctrines" out of your unmentionable orifices,
Bobby Jo

Thanks Bobby Jo for your words of affirmation. I appreciate it. Wolf! Wolf!

Now if you believe that I am wrong then please present a scripturally based rebuttal that does not come out of your unmentionable orifice(s). When you can produce a rebuttal that is not based on your conjecture of when and how God's prophecies have or will occur, then people, including myself, may start to listen to you. Otherwise your bulling tactics may cause you to be ignored by more than just myself.

In any case, your tactics remind me of a fellow, I previously knew, on a now defunct forum that was prophecy focused where the user's name was from a babies first attempts of gibberish utterances.

 

[Bobby Jo]

Thanks Bobby Jo for your words of affirmation. I appreciate it. ...

My words were not for you! They were for anyone gullible enough to believe your ramblings.

And for anyone interested, the SPECIFIC YEAR 1948 and it's associated SIGNIFICANCE is CITED IN SCRIPTURE. But you won't find it where some FALSELY allude.


Bobby Jo