I don’t really know. The Bible does say Jesus yielded up the ghost.
What did Christ mean saying, God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
(Psalm 139:7-8)
God is said to be omnipresent. I strongly suspect that anything excluded from God's presence can no longer exist.
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With regard to the resurrection of the dead, Jesus reminded the Sadducees of how God spoke to Moses: "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob." He did not say: "I was", making him understand that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had been, but no longer were. He said: "I am". Because Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are. Immortal. Like all men in their immortal part, while ages last, and later, also in their bodies raised for eternity. They exist, as Moses, the prophets, the just exist, as, unfortunately, Cain exists, and those of the Deluge, and the sodomites, and all those who died in mortal sin. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
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God made man in his own image, but did not make him immortal or of the same substance that he possesses. Our Creator is composed of spirit and is eternal. Humans were made, however, out of the ground or organic substance that constitutes the earth. Adam only became a living being (but not an immortal soul) when God breathed life into him.
Here is a good explanation on this false idea spread from Bible Scholar Samuele Bacchiocchi's study, "...Throughout human history, people have refused to accept the finality that death brings to life. They have tried to deny the reality of death by teaching various forms of life after death. A key component of this teaching has been the belief in the survival of the soul apart from the body at the moment of death.
In spite of all the scientific breakthrough, the popularity of the belief in the immortality of the soul has not subsided. On the contrary, it is spreading today like wildfire. According to a recent Gallup Poll, 71 percent of Americans believe in some form of conscious life after death.1 The popularity of this belief can be attributed, not only to the traditional teachings of Catholic and Protestant churches, but also to such factors as the polished image of mediums and psychics, the sophisticated "scientific" research into near-death experiences, and the popular New Age channeling with the alleged spirits of the past.
The result is that few beliefs are more widely held today than that of the "immortal soul." Virtually everyone is familiar with this belief. If asked, the average religious person would define the belief something like this: A human being is composed of both body and soul. The body is the temporary physical flesh-and-blood "shell" that houses the soul. The soul is the nonmaterial, immortal component that leaves the body at death and lives on consciously forever in heaven or hell (or purgatory for the Catholics).
Is this popular belief taught in the Bible? Does the Bible teach that we have an immortal soul that leaves the body at death and heads on for heaven or hell, or purgatory? The answer of the average religious person is "YES"! They simply assume that the belief in the immortality of the soul is taught in the Bible. Is this true? Absolutely NOT!..
The serpent's lie, "You will not die" (Gen 3:4) has lived on throughout human history to our time. The belief in some form of life after death has been held in practically every society. The need for reassurance and certainty in the light of the challenge that death poses to human life, has led people in every culture to formulate beliefs in some forms of afterlife. Such beliefs, as we shall see, reflect human attempts to achieve immortal life through human speculations, rather than divine revelation.
Egyptians' Belief in the Immortality of the Soul
It is difficult to pinpoint historically the origin of the belief in the immortality of the soul, since all the ancient civilizations held to some forms of conscious life after death. The Greek historian Herodotus, who lived in the fifth century before Christ, tells us in his History that the ancient Egyptians were the first to teach that the soul of man is immortal and separable from the body. At death the soul passes through various animals before being reborn in human form. The cycle was suppose to take three thousand years.2
Nowhere in the ancient world was the concern for the afterlife so deeply felt as in Egypt. The countless tombs unearthed by archaeologists along the Nile offer an eloquent testimony to the Egyptian belief in conscious life after death. They spent an outrageous amount of time and money preparing for life after death. They practiced elaborate ceremonies to prepare the pharaohs for their next life. They constructed massive pyramids and other elaborate tombs filled with luxuries the deceased were supposed to need in the hereafter. The famous Book of The Dead is a collection of ancient Egyptian funerary and ritual texts, which describes in great details how to meet the challenges of the afterlife.
Greek Philosophers Promoted Immortality of the Soul
The Egyptian belief in the immortality of the soul existed centuries before Judaism, Hellenism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam. According to Herodotus, eventually the Greeks adopted from the Egyptians the belief in the immortality of the soul. He wrote: "The Egyptians also were the first who asserted the doctrine that the soul of man is immortal. . . . This opinion, some among the Greeks have at different periods of time adopted as their own."3
The Greek philosopher Socrates (470-399 B. C.) traveled to Egypt to consult the Egyptians on their teachings on the immortality of the soul. Upon his return to Greece, he imparted this teaching to his most famous pupil, Plato (428-348 B. C.).
In his book, The Phaedo, Plato recounts Socrates' final conversation with his friends on the last day of his life. He was condemned to die by drinking hemlock for corrupting the youths of Athens by teaching them "atheism," that is, the rejection of the gods. The setting was an Athenian prison and the time the summer of 399 B. C. Socrates spent his last day discussing the origin, nature, and destiny of the human soul with his closest friends.
In the dialogue Socrates repeatedly declares death to be "the separation of the soul from the body" in which it is encased. His language is strikingly similar to that of many Christian churches today. "The soul whose inseparable attribute is life, will never admit of life's opposite, death. Thus the soul is shown to be immortal, and since immortal, indestructible. . . . Do we believe there is such a thing as death? To be sure. And is this anything but the separation of the soul and body? And being dead is the attainment of this separation, when the soul exists in herself and separate from the body, and the body is parted from the soul. That is death. . . . Death is merely the separation of soul and body."4 In Phaedo, Plato explains that there is a judgement after death for all souls, according to the deeds done in the body. The righteous souls go to heaven and the wicked to hell.5
This teaching found its way first into Hellenistic Judaism especially through the influence of Philo Judaeus (ca. 20 B.C. A. D. 47) and later into Christianity especially through the influence of Tertullian (ca. 155-230), Origen (ca. 185-254), Augustine (354-430), and Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274). These writers attempted to blend the Platonic view of the immortality of the soul with the biblical teachings on the resurrection of the body....
In spite of all the scientific breakthrough, the popularity of the belief in the immortality of the soul has not subsided. On the contrary, it is spreading today like wildfire. According to a recent Gallup Poll, 71 percent of Americans believe in some form of conscious life after death.1 The popularity of this belief can be attributed, not only to the traditional teachings of Catholic and Protestant churches, but also to such factors as the polished image of mediums and psychics, the sophisticated "scientific" research into near-death experiences, and the popular New Age channeling with the alleged spirits of the past.
The result is that few beliefs are more widely held today than that of the "immortal soul." Virtually everyone is familiar with this belief. If asked, the average religious person would define the belief something like this: A human being is composed of both body and soul. The body is the temporary physical flesh-and-blood "shell" that houses the soul. The soul is the nonmaterial, immortal component that leaves the body at death and lives on consciously forever in heaven or hell (or purgatory for the Catholics).
Is this popular belief taught in the Bible? Does the Bible teach that we have an immortal soul that leaves the body at death and heads on for heaven or hell, or purgatory? The answer of the average religious person is "YES"! They simply assume that the belief in the immortality of the soul is taught in the Bible. Is this true? Absolutely NOT!..
The serpent's lie, "You will not die" (Gen 3:4) has lived on throughout human history to our time. The belief in some form of life after death has been held in practically every society. The need for reassurance and certainty in the light of the challenge that death poses to human life, has led people in every culture to formulate beliefs in some forms of afterlife. Such beliefs, as we shall see, reflect human attempts to achieve immortal life through human speculations, rather than divine revelation.
Egyptians' Belief in the Immortality of the Soul
It is difficult to pinpoint historically the origin of the belief in the immortality of the soul, since all the ancient civilizations held to some forms of conscious life after death. The Greek historian Herodotus, who lived in the fifth century before Christ, tells us in his History that the ancient Egyptians were the first to teach that the soul of man is immortal and separable from the body. At death the soul passes through various animals before being reborn in human form. The cycle was suppose to take three thousand years.2
Nowhere in the ancient world was the concern for the afterlife so deeply felt as in Egypt. The countless tombs unearthed by archaeologists along the Nile offer an eloquent testimony to the Egyptian belief in conscious life after death. They spent an outrageous amount of time and money preparing for life after death. They practiced elaborate ceremonies to prepare the pharaohs for their next life. They constructed massive pyramids and other elaborate tombs filled with luxuries the deceased were supposed to need in the hereafter. The famous Book of The Dead is a collection of ancient Egyptian funerary and ritual texts, which describes in great details how to meet the challenges of the afterlife.
Greek Philosophers Promoted Immortality of the Soul
The Egyptian belief in the immortality of the soul existed centuries before Judaism, Hellenism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam. According to Herodotus, eventually the Greeks adopted from the Egyptians the belief in the immortality of the soul. He wrote: "The Egyptians also were the first who asserted the doctrine that the soul of man is immortal. . . . This opinion, some among the Greeks have at different periods of time adopted as their own."3
The Greek philosopher Socrates (470-399 B. C.) traveled to Egypt to consult the Egyptians on their teachings on the immortality of the soul. Upon his return to Greece, he imparted this teaching to his most famous pupil, Plato (428-348 B. C.).
In his book, The Phaedo, Plato recounts Socrates' final conversation with his friends on the last day of his life. He was condemned to die by drinking hemlock for corrupting the youths of Athens by teaching them "atheism," that is, the rejection of the gods. The setting was an Athenian prison and the time the summer of 399 B. C. Socrates spent his last day discussing the origin, nature, and destiny of the human soul with his closest friends.
In the dialogue Socrates repeatedly declares death to be "the separation of the soul from the body" in which it is encased. His language is strikingly similar to that of many Christian churches today. "The soul whose inseparable attribute is life, will never admit of life's opposite, death. Thus the soul is shown to be immortal, and since immortal, indestructible. . . . Do we believe there is such a thing as death? To be sure. And is this anything but the separation of the soul and body? And being dead is the attainment of this separation, when the soul exists in herself and separate from the body, and the body is parted from the soul. That is death. . . . Death is merely the separation of soul and body."4 In Phaedo, Plato explains that there is a judgement after death for all souls, according to the deeds done in the body. The righteous souls go to heaven and the wicked to hell.5
This teaching found its way first into Hellenistic Judaism especially through the influence of Philo Judaeus (ca. 20 B.C. A. D. 47) and later into Christianity especially through the influence of Tertullian (ca. 155-230), Origen (ca. 185-254), Augustine (354-430), and Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274). These writers attempted to blend the Platonic view of the immortality of the soul with the biblical teachings on the resurrection of the body....
Correct. In Gen. 1:26, we read, "Let us make man according to our image and likeness [...]". In Gen. 2:7, we read, "God formed the man of dust of the earth, and breathed upon his face the breath of life [...]". What are bones? A proof of the power of God Who made man with dust, but nothing else. The act of having "breathed the breath of life upon" indicates giving something that makes a man who he is: a creature bearing the image and likeness of God.
In Jn. 4:24, we read, "God is Spirit", and thus the "breath of life" is a spirit (soul): God's image and likeness. This wonderful thing which is a soul, a thing created by God to give man His image and likeness as an unquestionable sign of His Most Holy Paternity, shows signs of the qualities characteristic of Him Who creates it. It is therefore intelligent, spiritual, free, immortal, and so on, like the Father Who created it.
Scripture confirms that Satan lied, as well as the existence of immortal souls, and physical and spiritual death:
"but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for on the day that you eat from it you will certainly die" (Gen. 2:17)
"By the sweat of your face, you shall eat bread, until you return to the ground, because from it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return" (Gen. 3:19)
"Your sins have separated you and God" (Is. 59:2)
"[...] The soul that sins shall die" (Eze. 18:4)
"My spirit (soul) has rejoiced in God my Savior [...] (Lk. 1:47)
"Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna" (Matt. 10:28)
"For the wages of sin is death [...]" (Rom. 6:23)
In this life, we can use our free will to either cultivate good or evil fruit. Evil fruit is disobedience of God's Laws. Eve's and Adam's act of disobedience brought about death, physical and spiritual, into this world. Acts of disobedience, or sins, can separate our soul from God here on Earth, to the point of killing it (an eternal separation from God) if we persist in sinning unto physical death willfully, and with full knowledge and understanding that it's wrong.
After our temporal body dies, our immortal soul returns to God for judgment, and will either continue to live a life with God in Heaven, or continue to live a life separated from God in Hell for eternity (death of the spirit), because God is not of the dead, but the living (Ex. 3:6, Matt. 22:32, Mk. 12:27, Lk. 20:38).
One day, our body will be resurrected and our soul re-joined to it. In Jesus' and Mary's case, their souls have already been re-joined to their bodies. Until other souls are re-joined to their bodies, they are still alive and communicate with others in Heaven, as well as on Earth if it's God's will.
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
The only way you can justify the natural immortality of the soul, is by redefining the meaning of death, and in doing so making scripture of none effect. The soul that sins, it shall die. Separation in and of itself, is not death. However, because such separation is in context a separation from the only source of life, then true eternal death, not separation by itself, is the only conclusion. Death is the opposite to life.
As you described, creation of man entailed the breath of life given to a lifeless pile of wet mud. The Bible describes death as being the breath of life returning to God. That leaves a lifeless pile of wet mud... eventually.
It's not a matter of redefining the meaning of death, because death does mean the end of life as you say, in terms of both death of the body and death of the spirit. A soul (spirit) that is separated from God doesn't have life, and thus is spiritually dead, though it's immortal.
In Gen. 1:26, we read, "Let us make man according to our image and likeness [...]". In Gen. 2:7, we read, "God formed the man of dust of the earth, and breathed upon his face the breath of life [...]". What are bones? A proof of the power of God Who made man with dust, but nothing else. The act of having "breathed the breath of life upon" indicates giving something that makes a man who he is: a creature bearing the image and likeness of God. In Jn. 4:24, we read, "God is Spirit", and thus the "breath of life" is a spirit (soul): God's image and likeness. This wonderful thing which is a soul, a thing created by God to give man His image and likeness as an unquestionable sign of His Most Holy Paternity, shows signs of the qualities characteristic of Him Who creates it. It is therefore intelligent, spiritual, free, immortal, and so on, like the Father Who created it.
After our temporal body dies, our immortal soul returns to God for judgment, and will either continue to live a life with God in Heaven, or continue to live a life separated from God in Hell for eternity (death of the spirit), because God is not of the dead, but the living (Ex. 3:6, Matt. 22:32, Mk. 12:27, Lk. 20:38).
One day, our body will be resurrected and our soul re-joined to it. In Jesus' and Mary's case, their souls have already been re-joined to their bodies. Until other souls are re-joined to their bodies, they are still alive and communicate with others in Heaven, as well as on Earth if it's God's will.
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Read Genesis again. Man was not given a soul. He was given life in the form of breath/spirit, and he became a soul.
God is spirit. John 4:24.
God only is immortal. 1 Timothy 6:15,16.
Therefore God only is an immortal spirit. We are not gods.
I just said that God breathed the "breath of life" into man. What is the "breath of life"? We know it's God's image and likeness. What do we know about God's image and likeness? For example, again, in Jn. 4:24 we read, "God is spirit" and thus the "breath of life" breathed into man is a spirit, also known as the "soul". A spirit is immortal because it's a non-physical entity, meaning it is not subject to the same limitations of decay and death that physical bodies experience; essentially, the essence of a being, not bound by the physical world, continues to exist even after the body dies. That's why God Who is a Spirit became human so as to die a bodily death.
This wonderful thing which is a soul (spirit), a thing created by God to give man His image and likeness as an unquestionable sign of His Most Holy Paternity, shows signs of the qualities characteristic of Him Who creates it. It is therefore intelligent, spiritual, free, immortal, and so on, like the Father Who created it.
In this life, we can use our free will to either cultivate good or evil fruit. Evil fruit is disobedience of God's Laws. Eve's and Adam's act of disobedience brought about death, physical and spiritual, into this world. Acts of disobedience, or sins, can separate our soul from God here on Earth, to the point of killing it (an eternal separation from God) if we persist in sinning unto physical death willfully, and with full knowledge and understanding that it's wrong.
After our temporal body dies, our immortal soul returns to God for judgment, and will either continue to live a life with God in Heaven, or continue to live a life separated from God in Hell for eternity (death of the spirit), because God is not of the dead, but the living (Ex. 3:6, Matt. 22:32, Mk. 12:27, Lk. 20:38).
One day, our body will be resurrected and our soul re-joined to it. In Jesus' and Mary's case, their souls have already been re-joined to their bodies. Until other souls are re-joined to their bodies, they are still alive and communicate with others in Heaven, as well as on Earth if it's God's will.
"Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna". (Matt. 10:28)
Yet, God made us in His image and likeness, for example by giving us a spirit (soul) which is immortal as shown above, and thus 1. Tim. 6:16 doesn't mean what you think it does.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
That all sounds well and good, all couched in spiritual terms and even with Bible references. But it's all deception, and you have to deny clear bible truth in order to sustain it. Only God is immortal. We receive immortality as a gift. That gift comes to us at the second coming. And only those in Christ receive it. Everyone else according to John 3:16 perishes. The soul that sins dies. Much of what you present above is assumption. Like claiming that soul and spirit are the same.
“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. ”
Genesis 2:7 KJV
Unfeigned Bible
What you are proposing is typically Catholic dogma, based on tradition inherited from Greek philosophy and not scripture. It is the same as every occult religion, and Mormonism, teaches. That men can become gods. That immortality is a natural trait of humankind. Exactly what Satan suggested to Eve as the bonus of sin...ye shall not surely die. And priests and pastors still preach that lie to this day... even in forums such as this.
Only God is eternal because only He has no beginning or end. God is immortal because He is Spirit which is a non-physical entity, meaning it is not subject to the same limitations of decay and death that physical bodies experience; essentially, the essence of a being, not bound by the physical world, continues to exist even after the body dies.
Certain people will dwell with God Heaven for eternity, but that's not because only they received immortality, as even people that will dwell in Hell for eternity are immortal because of their spirit (soul). God makes every man in His image and likeness: "Let us make man according to our image and likeness [...]" (Gen. 1:26). In Gen. 2:7, we read, "God formed the man of dust of the earth, and breathed upon his face the breath of life [...]". What are bones? A proof of the power of God Who made man with dust, but nothing else. The act of having "breathed the breath of life upon" indicates giving something that makes a man who he is: a creature bearing the image and likeness of God. What do we know about God's image and likeness? Again, for example, in Jn. 4:24 we read, "God is Spirit", and thus the "breath of life" that He breathes into man is a spirit, also known as the "soul", and thus 1. Tim. 6:16 doesn't mean what you think it does. The spirit (soul) shows signs of the qualities characteristic of Him Who creates it. It is therefore intelligent, spiritual, free, immortal, and so on, like the Father Who created it.
Natural traits are characteristics or attributes of an organism that are expressed by genes and/or influenced by the environment, and I said that we are immortal because of the spirit (soul) God gives each man. So, what do you mean when you say that I'm proposing "immortality is a natural trait of humankind"?
In this life, we can use our free will to either cultivate good or evil fruit. Evil fruit is disobedience of God's Laws. Eve's and Adam's act of disobedience brought about death, physical and spiritual, into this world. Acts of disobedience, or sins, can separate our spirit (soul) from God here on Earth, to the point of killing it (an eternal separation from God) if we persist in sinning unto physical death willfully, and with full knowledge and understanding that it's wrong. Therefore, Satan did lie to Eve, but again, it doesn't mean that humans don't have a spirit (soul) which is immortal, though it can still become spiritually dead, as in be separated from God.
After our temporal body dies, our immortal soul returns to God for judgment, and will either continue to live a life with God in Heaven, or continue to live a life separated from God in Hell for eternity (death of the spirit), because God is not of the dead, but the living (Ex. 3:6, Matt. 22:32, Mk. 12:27, Lk. 20:38).
One day, our body will be resurrected and our soul re-joined to it. In Jesus' and Mary's case, their souls have already been re-joined to their bodies. Until other souls are re-joined to their bodies, they are still alive and communicate with others in Heaven, as well as on Earth if it's God's will.
"Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna". (Matt. 10:28)
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I think that only God is eternal because He is God. We aren't, either God or eternal. Except eternal life is given as a gift. Not because of what we are. But because of Who Jesus is, and what He had accomplished on our behalf.
Initially, you said, "Only God is immortal", and I said that only God is eternal because only He has no beginning or end, but He and humans are immortal. Regarding immortality, again, God is immortal because He is Spirit which is a non-physical entity, meaning it is not subject to the same limitations of decay and death that physical bodies experience; essentially, the essence of a being, not bound by the physical world, continues to exist even after the body dies. The immortal part of humans is their image and likeness of God that He gave us: the spirit (soul).
Does that mean Satan didn't lie to Eve when he told her she wouldn't die for disobeying God? No! Again, in this life, we can use our free will to either cultivate good or evil fruit. Evil fruit is disobedience of God's Laws. Eve's and Adam's act of disobedience brought about death, physical and spiritual, into this world. Acts of disobedience, or sins, can separate our spirit (soul) from God here on Earth, to the point of killing it (an eternal separation from God) if we persist in sinning unto physical death willfully, and with full knowledge and understanding that it's wrong. Therefore, Satan did lie to Eve, but again, it doesn't mean that humans don't have an immortal spirit (soul), though it can still become spiritually dead, as in be separated from God.
After our temporal body dies, our immortal soul returns to God for judgment, and will either continue to live a life with God in Heaven, or continue to live a life separated from God in Hell for eternity (death of the spirit), because God is not of the dead, but the living (Ex. 3:6, Matt. 22:32, Mk. 12:27, Lk. 20:38).
One day, our body will be resurrected and our soul re-joined to it. In Jesus' and Mary's case, their souls have already been re-joined to their bodies. Until other souls are re-joined to their bodies, they are still alive and communicate with others in Heaven, as well as on Earth if it's God's will.
"Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna". (Matt. 10:28)
Initially, you said, "We receive immortality as a gift. That gift comes to us at the second coming. And only those in Christ receive it". Again, certain people will receive the reward of eternal life with God in Heaven, but that's not because only they received immortality, as even people that will dwell for eternity in Hell are immortal because of their spirit (soul), because God makes every man in His image and likeness: "Let us make man according to our image and likeness [...]" (Gen. 1:26). In Gen. 2:7, we read, "God formed the man of dust of the earth, and breathed upon his face the breath of life [...]". What are bones? A proof of the power of God Who made man with dust, but nothing else. The act of having "breathed the breath of life upon" indicates giving something that makes a man who he is: a creature bearing the image and likeness of God. What do we know about God's image and likeness? Again, for example, in Jn. 4:24 we read, "God is Spirit", and thus the "breath of life" that He breathes into man is a spirit, also known as the "soul", and thus 1. Tim. 6:16 doesn't mean what you think it does. The spirit (soul) shows signs of the qualities characteristic of Him Who creates it. It is therefore intelligent, spiritual, free, immortal, and so on, like the Father Who created it.
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Amen brother, Death has no place in those who are alive like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob....
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
That is assumption based on wrong premises. Angels are spirits, yet they are not immortal, because scripture says the devil will be destroyed. So are human sinners. And you continue to conflate soul and spirit despite being referred to
Genesis 2:7 which says unequivocally that man became a living soul/being/person. Not has a soul. And the spirit is not a separate individual entity or life form that exists independently from the body. There is no dualism in Christian thought. That is paganism and occultism. Greek philosophy. Try applying your interpretation of soul to the following...
“And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother’s son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came. ”
Genesis 12:5 KJV
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