What becomes of our faith if the Genesis account is NOT literal?

[ElieG12]

Jesus Christ was a perfect man like Adam. He had not inherited sin genetically, so his physical constitution was similar to that of Adam before he sinned. If Jesus had followed the law faithfully during his life, he could have lived forever, because his righteousness would have assured his continued existence. We thought it was like a perfectly designed machine that never fails if not forced and operated exactly as the designer's manual instructs.

When the Devil tempted Jesus to jump from a height he told him something interesting. He reminded him of God's promise that the angels would watch over him so that he would not stumble and fall and be injured (Matt. 4:6; Luke 4:10). That was the guarantee that if he remained obedient he would never die. So Jesus would have been eternal.

But what happened? Well, he was eternal, but he wasn't immortal. His mission was mainly to sacrifice his life. For that, he had to be mistreated to the point of losing his life. Although his body was perfect and he enjoyed eternal life conditioned by his righteousness, his body could not withstand the physical abuse to which he would be subjected. In other words: a perfect person with eternal life in view because of his righteousness can still die, because he is not immortal.

Adam could not be favored with the guarantee of being cared for so as not to get hurt (eating of the tree of life), but worse than that, he lost the right to the natural continuity of his life, which he would have maintained if he had remained obedient.

 

[St. SteVen]

How are we defining "immortality"? If a mortal has an afterlife, is that immortality?

I know some are against the "immortality of the soul" doctrine.

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[Wrangler]

You seem to be insisting on some kind of immortality that needs no means of sustenance aside from the abstract idea of said immortality. Correct me if I'm wrong.

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Rather the converse; I'm insisting some kind of mortality that needs some means of deviating (Tree of Life) to prevent the default consequence of being mortal, namely, death.

 

[ElieG12]

How are we defining "immortality"? If a mortal has an afterlife, is that immortality?

I know some are against the "immortality of the soul" doctrine.

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The Bible has the definition:

John 5:26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.

It is life that does not depend on external factors. It never ends and nothing can stop it.

The afterlife of the dead is a myth. It would be like saying humans are inmortals no matter what, which is false.

 

[St. SteVen]

The Bible has the definition:

John 5:26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.

It is life that does not depend on external factors. It never ends and nothing can stop it.

The afterlife of the dead is a myth. It would be like saying humans are inmortals no matter what, which is false.

That seems contradictory. Please explain.

You say: "It is life that does not depend on external factors. It never ends and nothing can stop it."
And then you say: "The afterlife of the dead is a myth. It would be like saying humans are inmortals no matter what, which is false."

Which is it? Does life never end, or is the afterlife of the dead is a myth?

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[ElieG12]

That seems contradictory. Please explain.

You say: "It is life that does not depend on external factors. It never ends and nothing can stop it."
And then you say: "The afterlife of the dead is a myth. It would be like saying humans are inmortals no matter what, which is false."

Which is it? Does life never end, or is the afterlife of the dead is a myth?

Both are true.

Only after the first kind of resurrection a dead person (a brother of Jesus and no one else) go with him and is granted immortality. Again: AFTER THEIR RESURRECTION, not at the moment of death.

Most dead Christians will be resurrected on earth, like John the Baptist:

Matt. 11:11 Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.

So there is a divisor line to limit the pass to heaven, and John is under that line. Only a few will cross that line to rise above in the form of spirits and receive immortality like Jesus.

Rev. 20:6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.

 

[St. SteVen]

Both are true.

Only after the first kind of resurrection a dead person (a brother of Jesus and no one else) go with him and is granted immortality. Again: AFTER THEIR RESURRECTION, not at the moment of death.

Most dead Christians will be resurrected on earth, like John the Baptist:

Matt. 11:11 Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.

So there is a divisor line to limit the pass to heaven, and John is under that line. Only a few will cross that line to rise above in the form of spirits and receive immortality like Jesus.

Rev. 20:6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.

If you are in hell burning for all eternity while you feel the torment of pain, are you alive or dead?

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[ElieG12]

The Bible doesn't support that doctrine.

Immortality is a prize that only some persons receive. If someone is living forever without dying, wherever it is, that is immortality. It is evidently a false doctrine:

1 Cor. 15:53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: “Death is swallowed up forever.” 55 “Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting producing death is sin, and the power for sin is the Law. 57 But thanks to God, for he gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!

2 Cor. 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, should be torn down, we are to have a building from God, a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens. 2 For in this house we do indeed groan, earnestly desiring to put on the one for us from heaven, 3 so that when we do put it on, we will not be found naked. 4 In fact, we who are in this tent groan, being weighed down, because we do not want to put this one off, but we want to put the other on, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now the one who prepared us for this very thing is God, who gave us the spirit as a token of what is to come.

Adam was not given immortality when he was created. He could not even maintain the eternal life that was normal when he was perfect and obeyed the command. Where do you think he went when he died?

Gen. 3:17 And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 It will grow thorns and thistles for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

 

[St. SteVen]

Adam was not given immortality when he was created.

What was the penalty for eating thereof?

Death? Why would that be a penalty if you were mortal?

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[ElieG12]

He lost the eternal life he was created with.

 

[BarneyFife]

What was the penalty for eating thereof?

Death? Why would that be a penalty if you were mortal?

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Now, do you see what you've started? Can't take you anywhere!

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[ElieG12]

Unless you want to run in circles and want everything to be repeated again and again

Eternal life is one thing. Immortality is something else.

A perfect human body like Adam's when he was created could live forever. In that condition of perfect and just (out of obedience) his body could still be hurt for various reasons. He would have to have a guarantee that God would ensure that nothing that could endanger his physical integrity happened to him. That guarantee was the tree of life.

When he disobeyed he automatically lost perfection. He began to age right at that very moment, and death would be the end of the process. Upon being expelled from Eden, his condition worsened, because the situation outside was hostile, and he no longer had the possibility of enjoying God's guaranteed care.

Immortality is not possible in bodies of flesh and bones. It is only granted to the spirits, and only if the Creator gives it to any of them in addition to the eternal life that they enjoy.

For not dying no one needs to be immortal. Eternal life is enough.

 

[TheHC]

My pleasure. Thanks for joining the discussion.


The the scriptures were inspired by God, why would they need to depend on up-to-date scientific knowledge?


Do you believe that Adam was the first man and that all of humankind are in Adam's race?
If not, what happens to my list of questions/observations in the OP?

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We have to keep in mind, who is controlling this world. (1 John 5:19)
So we should expect attempts by this Deceiver to mislead mankind; IOW, for humans to be misled, in all fields of knowledge.

For instance, scientists see changes in organisms in small ways, like MRSA (it’s still bacteria), or Darwin’s finches (they’re still finches), or Lenski’s LTEE (it’s still E.coli). Then, they see that all life has DNA, with animals & plants comprised of the same genes.

Is there evidence that evolutionary mechanisms can build any molecular machinery, like say a bacterial flagellum? Not a stitch!

(These are mindless forces. They can only work on / alter what already exists.)

But this doesn’t stop scientists from running with the idea that “we share genes through a common ancestor.”

 

[St. SteVen]

Now, do you see what you've started? Can't take you anywhere!

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I have some regular banter with a guy at work.
He says, "Here comes trouble!"
I respond, "With a capital T!"

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[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
My pleasure. Thanks for joining the discussion.
The the scriptures were inspired by God, why would they need to depend on up-to-date scientific knowledge?

We have to keep in mind, who is controlling this world. (1 John 5:19)
So we should expect attempts by this Deceiver to mislead mankind; IOW, for humans to be misled, in all fields of knowledge.

So, Satan was corrupting the god-breathed scriptures in the minds of the writers? Wow.
Maybe I am misunderstanding you?

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[St. SteVen]

But this doesn’t stop scientists from running with the idea that “we share genes through a common ancestor.”

So, the atheist scientists believe that the Genesis record concerning Adam is literal even when Christians don't? Wow.

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[ElieG12]

So, the atheist scientists believe that the Genesis record concerning Adam is literal even when Christians don't? Wow.

Where do you get that Christians believe that the biblical account of what happened in Eden is not literal?

Just because some "Christians" have been misled by atheist-infested false biblical scholarship does not mean that they have had any influence on how true Christians view the Bible.

Come on, do you really think they can control people's beliefs by impressing them with some false knowledge?

1 Cor. 2:13 These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, as we explain spiritual matters with spiritual words.

... 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God, for it is written: “He catches the wise in their own cunning.”

 

[BarneyFife]

Where do you get that Christians believe that the biblical account of what happened in Eden is not literal?

Just because some "Christians" have been misled by atheist-infested false biblical scholarship does not mean that they have had any influence on how true Christians view the Bible.

Come on, do you really think they can control people's beliefs by impressing them with some false knowledge?

1 Cor. 2:13 These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, as we explain spiritual matters with spiritual words.

... 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God, for it is written: “He catches the wise in their own cunning.”

What constitutes "atheist-infested false biblical scholarship?"

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[ElieG12]

What constitutes "atheist-infested false biblical scholarship?"

Yeah. What's that?

 

[BarneyFife]

Yeah. What's that?

Uh, your own words.

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