You are confused 'hall-goer', as I do not go to church. I am a member of the body of Christ Jesus, the church - who are people.
What are the main doctrinal differences between Jehovah's Witnesses and mainstream Christianity?
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What about the Person/Being of the Holy Ghost/Spirit? What about Him?
theJW
Member
There IS no Him.
GOD is the one sending the holy (set aside) spirit (breath, wind).
The words help us understand it as the POWER of God.
I see you have chosen to use 'wind' instead of 'mind/heart/intelligence (a Being with). Why?
Joh_14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh_16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
The Father and the Holy Ghost/Spirit sent the Son (a Being/Person).
Isa_48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
The Father and the Son likewise sent the Holy Ghost/Spirit (a Person/Being):
Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh_15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Some stumble over the Holy Spirit being called “it”, and by this claim that He is only a force, a power, a non-intelligence.
Yet, they should also recognize that Jesus was called “it” [Revelation 12:4 KJB], “child” [Revelation 12:2,4,5 KJB], “holy thing” [Luke 1:35 KJB] and “holy child” [Acts 4:27,30 KJB], all of which are also neuter gender. Jesus is still a "person" [Hebrews 1:3; 2 Corinthians 2:10 KJB] and masculine.
The Father in Heaven, who indeed is a "person" [Hebrews 1:3; Job 13:8 KJB], is also given neuter terms, such as "Ancient of Days" [Daniel 7:9,13,22 KJB] and "Majesty" [Hebrews 1:3, 8:1 KJB], "I AM", "the living" [Matthew 16:16, 26:63; John 6:69; Acts 14:15 KJB], "Maker" [Job 36:3; Hosea 8:14; Hebrews 11:10 KJB], "Creator" [Romans 1:25; 1 Peter 4:19 KJB], and even referred to as "it" connected with "this voice", and "angel" (message) [John 12:29 KJB], etc, etc.
The wicked angels, also "persons" (fallen, contrasted to unfallen) [Luke 15:7 KJB], are also called “it” [Luke 8:29, 9:39, 11:14, etc. KJB], but they too are intelligent [though created] beings and cited in the masculine.
Neuter terms do not automatically mean inanimate, for instance, the terms “child”, “babe”, “person”, “mail-carrier”, “flight attendant”, etc.
Some stumble over the the fact that the Holy Ghost is called "power", but so are angels, and Jesus.
Luk_1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Act_8:10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
1Co_1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
The Holy Ghost/Spirit ("another Comforter") comes with the "power", being "Power" Himself, as Jesus also was as the previous Comforter
Do not be deceived by the word "power/s" into thinking we are dealing with a mere force, since the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost/Spirit, as well as unfallen (as Gabriel and legions of Light) and fallen angels (as Lucifer and legions of Lie-ght), etc are all designated as "powers", each whom are living persons, living beings and living intelligences (Eph 1:20-21, 3:10, 6:12; Col 1:16; Tit 3:1; 1 Pet 3:22). Beware of arguments which only present half the facts.
Luk_22:69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.
It means might of authority.
Mar_12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
theJW
Member
Jesus spoke a little different because he KNEW his God and came from Him.
Do you REALLY think, RC, that a Triune God sent 2 Parts of Themselves? REALLY?
Do you REALLY think, RC, that a Triune God sent 2 Parts of Themselves? REALLY?
"Before you go calling me a 'trinitarian' and show that you do not understand my position, see what I do NOT believe. ... " - What are the main doctrinal differences between Jehovah's Witnesses and mainstream Christianity?
What I do believe - What are the main doctrinal differences between Jehovah's Witnesses and mainstream Christianity?
"Triune" = catholic Tertullian heresy.
theJW
Member
theJW
Member
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
You are correct about the first part, but it has too much baggage to be safe.
The second part is a false ideology. It is error.
Elohiym (plural word) are three Persons/Beings. JEHOVAH (singular name) = family name.
The Person/Being of the Son (also God, like the word Boss) returned to His Father (God, Boss).
That is why I said about John 1:1. "God" (Son) was "with" "the God" (Father), two Persons/Beings that are in nature Deity, each called God, that work in harmony.
There is not a singular Person/Being that is 3.
I answered this already elsewhere: What are the main doctrinal differences between Jehovah's Witnesses and mainstream Christianity?
Perhaps you may consider this arugment from scripture, which is self-contained, sealed, and cannot be broken:
The Apostle Paul, likewise, while writing the NT book of Hebrews under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost (2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Pet. 1:21, 3:16 KJB), cites quite a bit of the OT texts (Heb. 1:7 (Psa. 104:4); Heb. 1:8-9 (Psa. 45:6-7); Heb. 1:10-12 (Psa. 102:12,25-27) KJB, &c), in specific application, to demonstrate that the Son of the Father is both, [1] the highest (uncreated, eternal, infinite) messenger of the Father (Heb. 1:1-3,9 KJB, “Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son”), being a ‘fellow’ (Heb. 1:9 KJB) messenger (an office, a position) of the other (created, finite) messengers (Heb. 1:6,7,14 KJB; like Gabriel, ‘Herald’, &c), and [2] “God”, “Lord” (LORD; JEHOVAH, the Son; 1 Cor. 12:3; Php. 2:11 KJB). Notice how Paul continues this same thought, found in Hebrews 1 (Heb. 1:12 KJB, “thou art the same”), in some of the final statements of Hebrews 13 (Heb. 13:8 KJB, “Jesus Christ the same”) KJB:
Hebrews 1:8 KJB - But unto the Son he (the Father) saith, Thy throne, O God (the Son), is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Psalms 45:6 KJB - Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
Psalms 45:7 HOT - כסאך אלהים עולם ועד שׁבט מישׁר שׁבט מלכותך׃
Psalms 44:7 Hexapla - ὁ θρόνος σου, ὁ θεός, εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος, ῥάβδος εὐθύτητος ἡ ῥάβδος τῆς βασιλείας σου.
Hebrews 1:9 KJB - Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God (the Son), even thy God (the Father), hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Psalms 45:7 KJB - Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Psalms 45:8 HOT - אהבת צדק ותשׂנא רשׁע על־כן משׁחך אלהים אלהיך שׁמן שׂשׂון מחבריך׃
Psalms 44:8 Hexapla - ἠγάπησας δικαιοσύνην καὶ ἐμίσησας ἀνομίαν· διὰ τοῦτο ἔχρισέν σε ὁ θεὸς ὁ θεός σου ἔλαιον ἀγαλλιάσεως παρὰ τοὺς μετόχους σου.
Hebrews 1:10 KJB - And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Psalms 102:12 KJB - But thou, O LORD, shalt endure for ever; and thy remembrance unto all generations.
Psalms 102:13 HOT - ואתה יהוה לעולם תשׁב וזכרך לדר ודר׃
Psalms 101:13 Hexapla - σὺ δέ, κύριε, εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα μένεις, καὶ τὸ μνημόσυνόν σου εἰς γενεὰν καὶ γενεάν.
Psalms 102:26 HOT - לפנים הארץ יסדת ומעשׂה ידיך שׁמים׃
Psalms 101:26 Hexapla - κατ᾿ ἀρχὰς σύ, κύριε, τὴν γῆν ἐθεμελίωσας, καὶ ἔργα τῶν χειρῶν σού εἰσιν οἱ οὐρανοί·
Hebrews 1:11 KJB - They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Psalms 102:26 KJB - They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
Psalms 102:27 HOT - המה יאבדו ואתה תעמד וכלם כבגד יבלו כלבושׁ תחליפם ויחלפו׃
Psalms 101:27 Hexapla - αὐτοὶ ἀπολοῦνται, σὺ δὲ διαμενεῖς, καὶ πάντες ὡς ἱμάτιον παλαιωθήσονται, (Hebrews 1:12 KJB begins here) καὶ ὡσεὶ περιβόλαιον ἀλλάξεις αὐτούς, καὶ ἀλλαγήσονται·
Hebrews 1:12 KJB - And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Psalms 102:27 KJB - But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
Psalms 102:28 HOT - ואתה־הוא ושׁנותיך לא יתמו׃
Psalms 101:28 Hexapla - σὺ δὲ ὁ αὐτὸς εἶ, καὶ τὰ ἔτη σου οὐκ ἐκλείψουσιν.
Hebrews 13:4 KJB - Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
John 5:22 KJB - For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
John 5:27 KJB - And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Hebrews 13:5 KJB - Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
See Gen. 26:24, 28:15, 31:3, 46:4; Exo. 3:12; Deu. 31:6; Jos. 1:5; 1 Kin. 8:57; 1 Chr. 28:20; Psa. 46:7,11; Isa. 7:14, 8:8,10; Mat. 1:23, 28:20; Jhn. 13:33, 14:18; Act. 18:10 KJB.
Hebrews 13:6 KJB - So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.
Psalms 30:10 KJB - Hear, O LORD, and have mercy upon me: LORD, be thou my helper.
Psalms 54:4 KJB - Behold, God is mine helper: the Lord is with them that uphold my soul.
Matthew 15:25 KJB - Then came she and worshipped him (Jesus), saying, Lord, help me.
Hebrews 13:7 KJB - Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Hebrews 13:8 KJB - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Malachi 3:6 KJB - For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Hebrews 1:12 KJB - And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou (LORD; JEHOVAH, the Son) art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Refers back to Psalms 102; Malachi 3:6.
Quoted from my book on Michael the Archangel, here - Michael The Archangel Who Is Like Unto God The Highest Messenger (BOOK) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
theJW
Member
I don't understand Hebrew, but that didn't mean two,three, four or more people. It meant intensisty.
NO translation- even the pro-trinity ones- ever says "Gods" or "Them" or "They".
theJW
Member
I don't deal with lists.
I take them one at a time for examination.
But, the KJB has MANY Mistakes.
Care to look at them?
Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
Hos 1:4 And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel.
Hos 1:5 And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.
Hos 1:6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
Hos 1:7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Plenty of evidence, even beyond the stuff you forgot to ellipse from my actual response.
Sure, after you read, what I have read. Then we'll talk. - Internet Archive: Digital Library of Free & Borrowable Books, Movies, Music & Wayback Machine
theJW
Member
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
It's not "clear" one little bit that is the context of John 1:1 - unless you read it into the text. How can anything BE something and WITH that same thing at the same time?
theJW
Member
I've heard them ALL before. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
But not here. Funny how you have to write 20 paragraphs rather than admit the simple truth. What you wrote is wrong and in direct contradiction to Scripture. Mark 1:1 says the son of God is named Jesus. Therefore, his name is not any other name, including Jehovah.
Let's keep it real!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Somehow, this verse is proof text to you that Jesus' name is Jehovah?
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