What are the main doctrinal differences between Jehovah's Witnesses and mainstream Christianity?

[David in NJ]

As one so addressed, my reply is to appeal to the obvious translation error of this passage, which I have addressed many times before, but for the sake of new readers I will address it again…

Phil 2:5-10 does not say what is implied by this error in translation…here’s why….

The NASB and the ESV render this passage more correctly….

“Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

Please note the glaring anomalies in the interpretation of this well used passage of Scripture..…

1) Jesus existed in God’s ”form”….so, what “form“ does God have? The Bible says that “God is a spirit” (John 4:24) so Jesus existed in spirit form in heaven before being “sent” by his Father in human form to redeem mankind.

2) He did NOT regard “equality with God a thing to be grasped”….the very thought that he could ever achieve equality with his Father was never in his mind or thoughts even though his abilities in performing miracle might make some assume that he was a god….and want to worship him. Jesus plainly told the devil that God alone is to be worshipped. (Luke 4:8)

This happened to Paul when he was bitten by the serpent and did not die (Acts 28:6)..…or on another occasion when Paul and Barnabas healed a man, the people wanted to worship them as gods. (Acts 14:8-14)

3) Being humble as a human servant of his Father, Jesus was “obedient to the point of death”…..so to whom was he obedient?
Is God obedient to his equal self? Can an immortal God die?

4) After successfully completing his mission, Jesus returned to his Father in heaven and was “highly exalted“….can God highly exalt himself? And can he thereafter give himself “a name that is above every name” when God (Yahweh) already has a name above all others as “the Most High over all the earth” (Psalm 83:18)

5) So, “in the name of Jesus every knee will bow” (“kamptō”)…..does this mean worship? Or is bowing an act of respect as it was in Bible times?

6) How does this declaration by Paul finish?
”every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father”….

Christ’s whole mission was to glorify his Father…not himself.

And addressing Christ as “Lord” is not calling him “God” but is addressing him with a title of respect, which is what the word “Lord” in Greek, conveys.
“kyrios” also means….

1. the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
2. in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
3. is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master” (Strongs)

Christ in his capacity as redeemer was a “servant” of his God and Father. He was also the “Master” of his disciples, as their teacher.

So perhaps all in Christendom who read that erroneaou passage in their translations of the Bible, should think again and see what it actually says, rather than what they want it to say….?

Amplified Bible
who, although He existed in the form and unchanging essence of God [as One with Him, possessing the fullness of all the divine attributes—the entire nature of deity], did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped or asserted [as if He did not already possess it, or was afraid of losing it];

Christian Standard Bible
who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be exploited.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage.

American Standard Version
who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
He who, while he was in the form of God, did not esteem this as a prize, that he was the equal of God,

Contemporary English Version
Christ was truly God. But he did not try to remain equal with God.

 

[face2face]

Amplified Bible
who, although He existed in the form and unchanging essence of God [as One with Him, possessing the fullness of all the divine attributes—the entire nature of deity], did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped or asserted [as if He did not already possess it, or was afraid of losing it];

Christian Standard Bible
who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be exploited.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage.

American Standard Version
who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
He who, while he was in the form of God, did not esteem this as a prize, that he was the equal of God,

Contemporary English Version
Christ was truly God. But he did not try to remain equal with God.

Wow a deterioration of versions

Was that intentional David?

 

[face2face]

However, as you seem to believe that the Son came into existence in eternity past by some means of the Ancient of Days, that means you have an evolutionary 'god', a mercurial 'god', one that gains attributes over time, such as the attribute of "Father", which means you do not know that the other attributes of the Ancioent of Days are not also gained before it.

ReChoired

Maybe you unknowningly landed on an interesting point here.

Dear friends, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that whenever it is revealed we will be like him (Jesus), because we will see him just as he is. 3:3 And everyone who has this hope focused on him purifies himself, just as Jesus is pure) 1 Jn 3:2–3.

What limitations to do apply to the Saints being like Jesus who is also a Son?

Will you inherit a name?
A place in His Kingdom with authority and power?
Will you reign with Christ?
Will you be exalted to sit with Christ enthroned in Power?

Can you seperate Christ from the Saints in any way?

We will either be like him in everyway or not.

If not - state how?

F2F

 

[Aunty Jane]

this shows a poor understanding of the cross.

1. The wage of sin is death (its not physical death, if it was, everyone who physically died. paid for their own sins) it is spiritual death

Spiritual death results in physical death…..Adam and his wife disobeyed God’s command, and suffered the stated penalty…..God did not stipulate the kind of “death” that would ensue, but they got to experience physical death for the first time when their firstborn murdered his brother in a premeditated act of jealous hatred….a product of the sin now inherent in their nature.

Their spiritual death happened immediately, and caused a separation from God that they never regained.
I am not sure if they ever knew the difference….but death has ruled as king in this world ever since….yet neither spiritual or physical death were a part of God’s first purpose for mankind on this carefully prepared planet….he gave the first humans the mean to “live forever” in mortal flesh. (Gen 3:22-24)

2. Jesus died spiritually on the cross. (My God My God why have you forsaken me0 in fact, he said it is finished before he died physically. Meaning the sin debt was paid in full at this time (the greek word tettelesti literally means "paid in full" but the interpreter wrote it is finished, In either case, the sin debt was already paid.

In understanding his role as “redeemer” we know that Christ had to die the same death as Adam…the “ransom” demanded an equivalent exchange….”a life for a life”….that is what atonement means….”at-one-ment”…one for one.
As a perfect sinless man, Jesus had no sin to cause spiritual death. His words were prophetic and impossible to utter once there was no breath left in him. Jesus on his execution stake asked this question, not because he did not know why his God, had forsaken him, but in order that prophecy might be fulfilled. The prophecy here was found in Psalm 22:1, which was written by David, who was a prophetic type of the Lord Jesus Christ in many respects.
As he was about to take his last breath, he confidently stated that his mission was successfully completed. He had indeed paid for the redemption of the whole human race….but alas, not all would accept the terms upon which it was given.

3. Since the sin debt is paid, God is free to offer his salvation to everyone, But he will not force it on you. He wants you to recieve it. If you do, you will be saved, If you do not, you will remain condemned. and will suffer the second death.

Yes..offered but never forced….God appointed Jesus to be the judge of all humankind….those on earth at the time of his return in that capacity, will answer to him…..and those who have paid the penalty for sin with their own death (the wages of sin is death) will be still offered redemption even if they “practiced vile things”, by means of a resurrection. (John 5:28-29) This is not “the first resurrection”, which applies only to God’s elect (anointed ones) who are specifically chosen for a role in the heavenly kingdom as “kings and priests” (Rev 20:6)

The general resurrection of the dead does not occur until all wickedness on earth is eliminated by the coming of God’s Kingdom, to rule mankind as God intended from the beginning….when God’s will is “done on earth as it is in heaven”. (Matt 6:9-10)

physical death is not the penalty of sin, it is one of the many results of sin. or consequences of sin..

Physical death was not in God’s original purpose for mankind on this earth….it was only to enter man’s experience if he disobeyed the only negative command there was. Yet Adam and his wife were not the first rebels…..defection came from a disgruntled spirit creature who in his magnificence, desired worship for himself. He could not attain it from creatures who were his equal in power, but the newly created humans could serve him as a god even if it was by deception. He deliberately targeted the woman to tempt the man into disobedience and once that was accomplished….he had them! Sinful mankind have been his pawns ever since….some willingly, others by deception.

With rebellion now in both realms, God had some decisions to make….would he destroy the rebels and start again? Or use the rebellion as a object lesson to create precedents for all eternity to come so that no rebel could ever challenged his rightful Sovereignty again….he would allow the devil to create a world where all humans would be caught in the act of being themselves…..but he never left them without his guidance….it was up to them to implement his recommendations and gain the promised reward….it was never forced.

As difficult as it has been to endure the lessons…they will never be endured in vain…as this will settle once and for all time the rightful Sovereignty of our Creator over his own creation. (Matt 24:13)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Amplified Bible
who, although He existed in the form and unchanging essence of God [as One with Him, possessing the fullness of all the divine attributes—the entire nature of deity], did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped or asserted [as if He did not already possess it, or was afraid of losing it];

Christian Standard Bible
who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be exploited.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage.

American Standard Version
who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
He who, while he was in the form of God, did not esteem this as a prize, that he was the equal of God,

Contemporary English Version
Christ was truly God. But he did not try to remain equal with God.

Which translation agrees with the Bible’s entire narrative? And which ones are trying to incorporate a doctrine that is absent from Scripture altogether? Pick your scholars….

 

[David in NJ]

Wow a deterioration of versions

Was that intentional David?

Here is more:
New International Version
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

New Living Translation
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

English Standard Version
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Berean Standard Bible
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Berean Literal Bible
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in the heavens and on earth and under the earth,

King James Bible
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

New King James Version
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,

New American Standard Bible
so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

NASB 1995
so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

NASB 1977
that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE SHOULD BOW, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth,

Legacy Standard Bible
so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

 

[David in NJ]

Which translation agrees with the Bible’s entire narrative? And which ones are trying to incorporate a doctrine that is absent from Scripture altogether? Pick your scholars….

They all say the SAME Truth:

"that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

 

[David in NJ]

Wow a deterioration of versions

Was that intentional David?

They all say the SAME Truth:

"that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

 

[David in NJ]

As one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, I state emphatically — and I speak for all of us — that Christ’s death is the only ransom for mankind! Only His death, and our displaying faith in its atoning value, is the basis for forgiveness of our sins, and for our opportunity to live again by means of the Resurrection!!

Yes, the wages of sin is death. Death is the price all humans pay for being sinful. (No torment.)

But that doesn’t make us live again!

Our opportunity / chance to live again, for both “the righteous and the unrighteous” (Acts 24:15), is only the resurrection, which is provided through Christ’s sacrifice!

"displaying faith in its atoning value, is the basis for forgiveness of our sins,"

That alone will not save you from your sins for that is not the 'FAITH' that SAVES us.

But if you listen carefully to the Apostle Paul and follow EXACTLY what he has written, you will find the TRUTH unto Salvation = if you obey.

Acts 24:14-16
But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers,
believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets.
I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.
This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense toward God and men.

 

[David in NJ]

@Keiw @Aunty Jane @face2face @TheHC

Good Night

 

[Aunty Jane]

They all say the SAME Truth:

"that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Yes, this is the last point I addressed….they all address one truth, but not all subscribe to the same interpretation.….and the fact that calling Jesus “Lord” does not make him God.
He is our ”Lord”…the way a slave addressed his Master…the way Sarah referred to Abraham as her “lord”….out of respect for his position. All he accomplished in his earthly mission was for the glory of his God….not for himself.

How about the other 5 points that you didn’t mention? How would you support your view of this passage, which when broken down, does not even infer what is written in those translations.

@Keiw @Aunty Jane @face2face @TheHC

Good Night

Hope you have a restful sleep….

 

[Randy Kluth]

@Angelina posted in forum rules

quote:
Christianity Board has alway prided itself in being a place of scholarly discussion, friendship and an environment where members can grow, learn and share their experiences in Christ.

Our team at Cyb have worked hard over the years to ensure that this ethos is maintained and upheld however, we would like to bring to your attention, certain recurring topics, that have caused much division and strife here over the years.

These topics have tended to cause heated debate, strife and division between members and/or inappropriate behavior within those discussions, which simply will not be tolerated here at CyB

We are not disputing the fact that these topics are important however, they also tend to bring out the worse in members. To a point where such behavior is unacceptable in a Christian forum

At the moment, we only have issue with one particular topic, which is "The Trinity".

This topic may not be initiated, discussed or debated at Christianity Board, whether it be for or against the Trinitarian view. Included in this is the side mantra of "Jesus is not God" Such posts/threads will be deleted immediately and disciplinary action will be taken in the form of warning points and/or bans depending on the outcome. Old threads will also be removed from public view as well as new ones.

Yes, I don't think this is a forum I can remain in. I would discuss this, but where it was posted it forbade any response. In other words, the 1st major test of orthodoxy in Church history, the Trinity, cannot be discussed here. So we'll probably get a lot of JWs to take advantage. Maybe you'll get a lot of Unitarians?

The litmus test for what should be forbidden is not argument or emotion. Evil can use that to get things removed. Good things can get removed that way. I don't wish to be part of that.

If this was purely temporary due to immediate need, I could understand that. But I see an indefinite ban on Trinitarian language. It's not my Forum. Goodbye

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes, I don't think this is a forum I can remain in. I would discuss this, but where it was posted it forbade any response. In other words, the 1st major test of orthodoxy in Church history, the Trinity, cannot be discussed here. So we'll probably get a lot of JWs to take advantage. Maybe you'll get a lot of Unitarians?

The litmus test for what should be forbidden is not argument or emotion. Evil can use that to get things removed. Good things can get removed that way. I don't wish to be part of that.

If this was purely temporary due to immediate need, I could understand that. But I see an indefinite ban on Trinitarian language. It's not my Forum. Goodbye

Banning the hot heads who could not keep a civil tongue would have been better, but to ban the topic altogether is an affront to free speech…..it’s one of the most important topics and JW are as hamstrung as anyone else….

 

[face2face]

@Keiw @Aunty Jane @face2face @TheHC

Good Night

Rest well David for who know the Morning star might rise from the east and never set again!

 

[TheHC]

Jesus was given authority by the Father, because He had given up such in taking on the "form of a servant", for before He was in "the form of God", and was "equal with God".

Even after His resurrection, the Christians referred to Jesus as God’s “Servant.” (In their prayer addressed to “Sovereign Lord” (who, according to them, wasn’t Jesus) at Acts 4:24-30, twice they referred to Jesus, as God’s “holy servant”!

This was after his resurrection, so he wasn’t “limited by His human nature”, which is the excuse so often given.

They did not worship Jesus; the “Sovereign Lord” they prayed to, was Jesus’ Father. No other.


And the following is tied to your statement, maybe it’ll enlighten you, too (I can only hope):

AMPLIFIED BIBLE
….did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped….

“Grasped”… now this is close; but “asserted” is not supported at Philippians 2:6…
And the ASV…

American Standard Version
who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

“Grasped”, again.

This is what the Greek verb used here, “har•pag’mon”, means: to grasp for, violently reach for, snatch, steal. Never does it mean to ‘hold onto’.

Hopefully y’all can see the application… it does not support any idea of Jesus’ Godship; it’s in agreement with the rest of the context: of Jesus being obedient, and God - His Father - exalting him “to a superior position.”

Grief, @Aunty Jane, @tigger2, & @Keiw … and @face2face … Some of these biased translators have really twisted it, haven’t they? (But context will usually straighten it out.)

Taking away the unique supreme ONEness that rightfully belongs solely to our Father, Jehovah. Exodus 20:2-4; Deut. 6:4

 

[face2face]

Yes, I don't think this is a forum I can remain in. I would discuss this, but where it was posted it forbade any response. In other words, the 1st major test of orthodoxy in Church history, the Trinity, cannot be discussed here. So we'll probably get a lot of JWs to take advantage. Maybe you'll get a lot of Unitarians?

Sounds wonderful Randy, as though the Kingdom has arrived! The reality is every Christian forum is experiencing precisely what the early Churches experienced as Paganism and Christianity collided and resulted in what we have today. I'm sure you have something to offer but if you leave I hope you find a home.

 

[face2face]

Even after His resurrection, the Christians referred to Jesus as God’s “Servant.” (In their prayer addressed to “Sovereign Lord” (who, according to them, wasn’t Jesus) at Acts 4:24-30, twice they referred to Jesus, as God’s “holy servant”!

This was after his resurrection, so he wasn’t “limited by His human nature”, which is the excuse so often given.

They did not worship Jesus; the “Sovereign Lord” they prayed to, was Jesus’ Father. No other.


And the following is tied to your statement, maybe it’ll enlighten you, too (I can only hope):

“Grasped”… now this is close; but “asserted” is not supported at Philippians 2:6…
And the ASV…

“Grasped”, again.

This is what the Greek verb used here, “har•pag’mon”, means: to grasp for, violently reach for, snatch, steal. Never does it mean to ‘hold onto’.

Hopefully y’all can see the application… it does not support any idea of Jesus’ Godship; it’s in agreement with the rest of the context: of Jesus being obedient, and God - His Father - exalting him “to a superior position.”

Grief, @Aunty Jane, @tigger2, & @Keiw … and @face2face … Some of these biased translators have really twisted it, haven’t they? (But context will usually straighten it out.)

Taking away the unique supreme ONEness that rightfully belongs solely to our Father, Jehovah. Exodus 20:2-4; Deut. 6:4

One poster on here, quoted from Hebrews

Hello HC.

We have not formily been introduced.

I tried to show @ReChoired the context and application of Pauls words to the Philippians is speaking to the likeness of Christ in mind. That is in our thinking. Trinitarians have forced nature into the text and we know why, however the exhortation in Pauls letter is in being Christ-Like in thinking. Unlike Eve grasping the fruit and seeking the likeness of the Elohim by force! Christ did not do the same...he became a servant of God ignoring the privileges he had as a Son!

We could say Even though Christ was God's Son in image and likeness (not unlike Adam before he sinned) he choose to become a servant and the Son of Man over being the Son of God with Power!

 

[face2face]

 

[face2face]

The Spirit of Paul in Verse 7 is NOT teaching a Christ divesting himself of deity, nothing of the sort - Rather than taking to himself what was was rightfully his; i.e Kingship, Power and All Authority being his birthright, he emptied himself of every and all entitlements of a Son and died a servant thereby fulfilling His Fathers Will in every way. He poured out all his life as a suffering servant unto death.



tn Heb “because he laid bare his life”; traditionally, ASV “because he (+ hath KJV) poured out his soul (life NIV) unto death.”

This is the meaning of Philippians 2:7

Because Christians don't understand his humanity they can never understand Phi 2:7 & Isa 52:12

F2F

 

[face2face]

It was impossible for the Christ to have pre-existed in any form, other than that of being in the Logos of God's thinking from before the foundation of the earth.