What affect is there on The Fall and The Atonement, if Adam was not the first human?

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Windmill Charge

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what happens if you remove the original sinner?

Or to state this another way... How does our view of origins affect our doctrine?

Jesus died to atone for Adam and Adams decendants sin.
If there was no Adam or multiple Adan, beta, ceta etc then Jesus would have had to die for each of those multiple origins and for their decendants sins.

As there is no mention of multiple originators in the bible this idea can be forgotten.
 
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St. SteVen

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Jesus died to atone for Adam and Adams decendants sin.
If there was no Adam or multiple Adan, beta, ceta etc then Jesus would have had to die for each of those multiple origins and for their decendants sins.

As there is no mention of multiple originators in the bible this idea can be forgotten.
What do we do with the science and history that claims that Adam was either not the original man, or only a symbol for humankind?

Genesis 2:7 NIV
Then the Lord God formed a man[a] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life,
and the man became a living being.

Footnote:
The Hebrew for man (adam) sounds like and may be related to the Hebrew for ground (adamah);
it is also the name Adam (see verse 20).

[
 

GodsGrace

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Since Jesus died to pay the death penalty for original sin, what happens if you remove the original sinner?

Or to state this another way... How does our view of origins affect our doctrine?

Trying to sort this out in my own mind. Stuck somewhere between science and religion.

Send help! - LOL

This scripture shows that the fate of all humankind rested on the actions of the two Adams.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
You write great OPs SS.
Will reply to this tomorrow....
too tired right now.
'night.
 
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Windmill Charge

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What do we do with the science and history that claims that Adam was either not the original man, or only a symbol for humankind?


What is our authority on spiritual matters, do we believe what God haters say or do we believe what the Bible says?

Did Jesus lie when he mentioned that man was from the beginning of creation?
Did he knowingly imply that a 6 day creation was fact, that Adam was created by God?

Why do scientists claim that their interpretation of facts through their God hating bias, is the only possible explanation?
 
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GodsGrace

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Since Jesus died to pay the death penalty for original sin, what happens if you remove the original sinner?

Or to state this another way... How does our view of origins affect our doctrine?

Trying to sort this out in my own mind. Stuck somewhere between science and religion.

Send help! - LOL

This scripture shows that the fate of all humankind rested on the actions of the two Adams.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Great post SS....
Let's see where it goes.

First, it brings up some questions as to the verocity of Genesis-The Beginning.
Is it science? Is it metaphor? Allegory?
Can snakes speak?

So let's assume that Genesis is not literal - which it most probably isn't.
Does that make it any less TRUE?
No. It remains true in any case.

Why?

Because it's INSPIRED by God.
The person/s who wrote the first chapters of Genesis were ILLUMINATED/INSPIRED (take your pick) by God as to HOW the universe started and HOW humans came into existance.

The Christian religion is the one that most explains our beginnings and our human nature. The one that most explains the world as it is seen - with all its good and all its evil.

IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED....
Indeed.

And, there had to be a FIRST MAN and a FIRST WOMAN.
I'd say that Genesis comes really close - even IF it's not 100% how it happened in the details.

So with all that out of the way, I'd say that our origins are correct and that we indeed are affected by original sin
and that it makes no difference as to whether or not the first man was named Adam.

The most basic principles of Christianity remain:
Man is born sinful
He needs salvation.
God knew man would fail.
He planned on the atonement.

This basically covers it IMO.
But I'll be reading through because Adam and Eve and the Prodigal Son are my favorite biblical stories.
 

RedFan

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So let's assume that Genesis is not literal - which it most probably isn't.
Does that make it any less TRUE?
No. It remains true in any case.

Why?

Because it's INSPIRED by God.
The person/s who wrote the first chapters of Genesis were ILLUMINATED/INSPIRED (take your pick) by God as to HOW the universe started and HOW humans came into existance.
Perfetto, signiore!
 
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RedFan

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What do we do with the science and history that claims that Adam was either not the original man, or only a symbol for humankind?

Genesis 2:7 NIV
Then the Lord God formed a man[a] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life,
and the man became a living being.

Footnote:
The Hebrew for man (adam) sounds like and may be related to the Hebrew for ground (adamah);
it is also the name Adam (see verse 20).

[
I am one who views the Genesis creation story as allegorical yet still profoundly true. It's what Karen Armstrong, in her book The Case for God, would call mythos rather than logos:

"Logos (“reason”) was the pragmatic mode of thought that enabled people to function effectively in the world. It had, therefore, to correspond accurately to external reality. People have always needed logos to make an efficient weapon, organize their societies, or plan an expedition. Logos was forward-looking, continually on the lookout for new ways of controlling the environment, improving old insights, or inventing something fresh. Logos was essential to the survival of our species. But it had its limitations: it could not assuage human grief or find ultimate meaning in life’s struggles. For that people turned to mythos or “myth.”

"Today we live in a society of scientific logos, and myth has fallen into disrepute. In popular parlance, a “myth” is something that is not true. But in the past, myth was not self-indulgent fantasy; rather, like logos, it helped people to live effectively in our confusing world, though in a different way. Myths may have told stories about the gods, but they were really focused on the more elusive, puzzling, and tragic aspects of the human predicament that lay outside the remit of logos. Myth has been called a primitive form of psychology. When a myth described heroes threading their way through labyrinths, descending into the underworld, or fighting monsters, these were not understood as primarily factual stories. They were designed to help people negotiate the obscure regions of the psyche, which are difficult to access but which profoundly influence our thought and behavior. People had to enter the warren of their own minds and fight their personal demons. When Freud and Jung began to chart their scientific search for the soul, they instinctively turned to these ancient myths. A myth was never intended as an accurate account of a historical event; it was something that had in some sense happened once but that also happens all the time.

"But a myth would not be effective if people simply “believed” in it. It was essentially a program of action. It could put you in the correct spiritual or psychological posture, but it was up to you to take the next step and make the “truth” of the myth a reality in your own life. The only way to assess the value and truth of any myth was to act upon it. The myth of the hero, for example, which takes the same form in nearly all cultural traditions, taught people how to unlock their own heroic potential. Later the stories of historical figures such as the Buddha, Jesus, or Muhammad were made to conform to this paradigm so that their followers could imitate them in the same way. Put into practice, a myth could tell us something profoundly true about our humanity."
 

St. SteVen

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What is our authority on spiritual matters, do we believe what God haters say or do we believe what the Bible says?
These are great questions. Are science and history spiritual matters?

Did Jesus lie when he mentioned that man was from the beginning of creation?
Did he knowingly imply that a 6 day creation was fact, that Adam was created by God?
It's not a matter of true versus false. IMHO
Mythology was treated as fact in those days, at least to make a point.
This one comes to mind. What was "the spiritual rock that accompanied them"?
It was a myth about the rock that gave water following them.

1 Corinthians 10:4 NIV
and drank the same spiritual drink;
for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them,
and that rock was Christ.

Numbers 20:7-8 NIV
The Lord said to Moses,
8 “Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together.
Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water.
You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink.”

Compare: Deuteronomy 32:4, Exodus 17:1–7 and Numbers 20:1–14

Why do scientists claim that their interpretation of facts through their God hating bias, is the only possible explanation?
Everyone interprets evidence through their own understanding. We do it too.

[
 

St. SteVen

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I am one who views the Genesis creation story as allegorical yet still profoundly true. It's what Karen Armstrong, in her book The Case for God, would call mythos rather than logos:

"Logos (“reason”) was the pragmatic mode of thought that enabled people to function effectively in the world. It had, therefore, to correspond accurately to external reality. People have always needed logos to make an efficient weapon, organize their societies, or plan an expedition. Logos was forward-looking, continually on the lookout for new ways of controlling the environment, improving old insights, or inventing something fresh. Logos was essential to the survival of our species. But it had its limitations: it could not assuage human grief or find ultimate meaning in life’s struggles. For that people turned to mythos or “myth.”

"Today we live in a society of scientific logos, and myth has fallen into disrepute. In popular parlance, a “myth” is something that is not true. But in the past, myth was not self-indulgent fantasy; rather, like logos, it helped people to live effectively in our confusing world, though in a different way. Myths may have told stories about the gods, but they were really focused on the more elusive, puzzling, and tragic aspects of the human predicament that lay outside the remit of logos. Myth has been called a primitive form of psychology. When a myth described heroes threading their way through labyrinths, descending into the underworld, or fighting monsters, these were not understood as primarily factual stories. They were designed to help people negotiate the obscure regions of the psyche, which are difficult to access but which profoundly influence our thought and behavior. People had to enter the warren of their own minds and fight their personal demons. When Freud and Jung began to chart their scientific search for the soul, they instinctively turned to these ancient myths. A myth was never intended as an accurate account of a historical event; it was something that had in some sense happened once but that also happens all the time.

"But a myth would not be effective if people simply “believed” in it. It was essentially a program of action. It could put you in the correct spiritual or psychological posture, but it was up to you to take the next step and make the “truth” of the myth a reality in your own life. The only way to assess the value and truth of any myth was to act upon it. The myth of the hero, for example, which takes the same form in nearly all cultural traditions, taught people how to unlock their own heroic potential. Later the stories of historical figures such as the Buddha, Jesus, or Muhammad were made to conform to this paradigm so that their followers could imitate them in the same way. Put into practice, a myth could tell us something profoundly true about our humanity."
Wow, great post.
This would make a good topic. Very few Christians understand this. The use of mythos and logos. (myth and reason)

Have you responded to the topic title question yet? What's your take?

[
 
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St. SteVen

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So let's assume that Genesis is not literal - which it most probably isn't.
Does that make it any less TRUE?
No. It remains true in any case.

Why?

Because it's INSPIRED by God.
The person/s who wrote the first chapters of Genesis were ILLUMINATED/INSPIRED (take your pick) by God as to HOW the universe started and HOW humans came into existance.
I imagine you have read The Lord of the Rings trilogy. Was that inspired? Was it true?
Perhaps something can be inspired without being true.

Is poetry inspired? Is it true?

A few topics on the question:

Absolute truth - Do we know what it is?

Jesus said to Pilate, "... the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.” Pilate asked Jesus, "What is truth?" - John 18:37-38 NIV Still a good question. Absolute truth - Do we know what it is? ]

Is Truth Relevant? True and False are opinions. - True or False?

A follow-up to this previous (short-lived) topic: https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/absolute-truth-do-we-know-what-it-is.63543/ Absolute truth - Do we know what it is? Jesus said to Pilate, "... the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the...

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St. SteVen

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The Christian religion is the one that most explains our beginnings and our human nature. The one that most explains the world as it is seen - with all its good and all its evil.

IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED....
Indeed.
It could be that "God created" is the fact, and how it happened (Genesis account) was myth.
Where did Moses get his education? (I'll let you answer)

Just as, the fact of the sinfulness of humankind is a fact, but how that came to be is myth.

[
 

St. SteVen

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So with all that out of the way, I'd say that our origins are correct and that we indeed are affected by original sin
and that it makes no difference as to whether or not the first man was named Adam.

The most basic principles of Christianity remain:
Man is born sinful
He needs salvation.
God knew man would fail.
He planned on the atonement.
Excellent. Well said, thanks.

[
 
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St. SteVen

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New topic alert.


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