What affect is there on The Fall and The Atonement, if Adam was not the first human?

[Taken]

Since Jesus died to pay the death penalty for original sin, what happens if you remove the original sinner?

Or to state this another way... How does our view of origins affect our doctrine?

Trying to sort this out in my own mind. Stuck somewhere between science and religion.

Send help! - LOL

This scripture shows that the fate of all humankind rested on the actions of the two Adams.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Before creation and making of manKIND….
Before the name of Gods Word was revealed
Before Gods Word was revealed is the Savior
Before Discoveries (ie SCIENCE) of manKind

The Word of God…was slain, murdered.
To that understanding…IS:
Thoughts, Ideas, words spoken (by ANY of Gods Creations) AGAINST Gods Truth…
IS: slaying, killing, murdering GODS TRUTH.

Gods Created and Made angel, Lucifer, thought in his heart, he could rise in power and authority EQUAL with God.

Isa 14:
[13] For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
[14] I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

It is an individuals CHOICE to trust and believe God is the Creator and Maker of ALL things.

Science (regardless of specific categorized fields)…. Is expressly about DISCOVERIES.
(Finding, guessworks, testing, trials, errors, speculations, advantages, disadvantages, reports, etc.)

Yes…God DID reveal to ancient men, SOME pertinent understanding of Discoveries and Favorable uses for such items. (Such as…
Fire, what burns, uses, the wheel, materials for construction, for clothing, weaving, etc.)

However, I would say to you…being the crux of an imposing matter, between creation and science…
WHO aside from God has made Claims…
THEY created and made…
The Heavens, The Earth, The Heavens celestial occupants, The Earth terrestrial occupants…?

I Know of no one…
Yet albeit, many have made Claims regarding their personal “theories”….of animals becoming humans…(yet the same animals still exist)…

Thus again…it hangs on…a choice…of WHOM to believe…the creator and maker?
Or
The created and made?

God bless you,
Glory to God,

Taken

 

[GodsGrace]

I imagine you have read The Lord of the Rings trilogy. Was that inspired? Was it true?
Perhaps something can be inspired without being true.

So here's what inspired means from These Stones Will Shout by Mark Link.
1. to animate the mind or emotions.
2. to stimulate and influence.
3. to elicite, create.

I'd say that, yes, The Lord of the Rings was inspired...most probably by Tolkien's world and religious paradigm.

Was it true?
Which part?
The story or what it represented?

The story could not have been true, but what it represents is true.

I don't feel that we could consider the OT in the same way as the NT.
The NT is a biography, it's history.

The OT contains history, but we should consider it to be stories (or myths) that were used to teach something and could even have been based on some facts.

So A and E did not have witnesses so that it could be reported as a journalist would.
We have to depend on the fact that it was inspired.

But I don't think the question here is not whether it was inspired or whether it was myth....
I think we need to ask ourself WHO inspired it.

Tolkien was inspired by something (probably more than a who).

But the story of the beginning was inspired, certainly, by a WHO.
That Who is God.
Desiring to reveal Himself to His creatures.
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is inspired BY GOD.

Is poetry inspired? Is it true?

A few topics on the question:

Absolute truth - Do we know what it is?​

Jesus said to Pilate, "... the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.” Pilate asked Jesus, "What is truth?" - John 18:37-38 NIV Still a good question. Absolute truth - Do we know what it is? ]

Pilate was staring at TRUTH in the face, wasn't he?

Is Truth Relevant? True and False are opinions. - True or False?​

A follow-up to this previous (short-lived) topic: https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/absolute-truth-do-we-know-what-it-is.63543/ Absolute truth - Do we know what it is? Jesus said to Pilate, "... the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the...

[

In our world of relativism....we can say that there IS TRUTH.
It's just that not everyone believes this anymore - even some churches (denominations).

There must be an absolute truth for a society to function.
That absolute truth must come from something higher than man since man will not be able to either invent or manage truth...
so that truth must come from God.
2 Peter 1:21
Prophecy has never been put forward by man's willing it.
It is rather that men, impelled by the Holy Spirit, have spoken under God's influence.

 

[GodsGrace]

It could be that "God created" is the fact, and how it happened (Genesis account) was myth.
Where did Moses get his education? (I'll let you answer)

Just as, the fact of the sinfulness of humankind is a fact, but how that came to be is myth.

[

OK.
But I really dislike that it's being called MYTH.
What myth meant in ancient times is not what it means today and it could be taken the wrong way.

The sinfulness of man is a fact.
The Genesis account does explain how man fell - by disobeying His creator.

I'd rather like to think of the story as an allegory:
a visible symbol representing an abstract idea (vocabulary.com)

Which does not take away from the fact that God did CREATE both the universe and we humans.
How all this happened we cannot know.

Moses' education?
I wonder why you ask.
He was raised in the palace of the Pharoah.
He had an excellent education.

 

[St. SteVen]

OK.
But I really dislike that it's being called MYTH.
What myth meant in ancient times is not what it means today and it could be taken the wrong way.

Yes, that is a barrier to understanding this. Today "myth" is seen as untrue.
People who hold the Bible in high regard bristle at the term.

Moses' education?
I wonder why you ask.
He was raised in the palace of the Pharoah.
He had an excellent education.

There was more. Later in life he lived with Jethro the Priest of Midian who had scrolls of their knowledge.
How much of the Genesis account was borrowed from that knowledge? The mythologies of Egypt and Midian.

[

 

[Windmill Charge]

Mythology was treated as fact in those days, at least to make a point.

Where do you find in the bible people treating biblical accounts as mythical stories.
What you have quoted is Paul giving a spiritual meaning to a factual account.

Everyone interprets evidence through their own understanding. We do it too

It's not about understanding but about bias and truth.

If God has given us a true account, then to deliberately twist that account to make it say something else is to lie about God and his message.

 

[RedFan]

Wow, great post.
This would make a good topic. Very few Christians understand this. The use of mythos and logos. (myth and reason)

Have you responded to the topic title question yet? What's your take?

[

My take: Whether Adam was actually the "first" man or the Genesis story was mythological, either way I'm not seeing much effect on the Christian doctrine of salvation. What matters is that sin entered the world through mankind's natural tendency to pridefulness and greed. Identifying a first instance of it is unnecessary.

 

[RedFan]

Where do you find in the bible people treating biblical accounts as mythical stories.

Why would we ever expect to see a mythical story followed by an account of someone believing it to be mythical? I hope you're not suggesting that lack of such an account proves the story wasn't mythical!

If God has given us a true account, then to deliberately twist that account to make it say something else is to lie about God and his message.

"True" account in what sense? Factually, or in the message?

 

[RedFan]

Moses' education?
I wonder why you ask.
He was raised in the palace of the Pharoah.
He had an excellent education.

I wonder how he learned to write in Hebrew.

 

[Lambano]

"True" account in what sense? Factually, or in the message?

I think what bothers people is that it is presented as a factual account and has traditionally been understood by the Church to be a factual account. That may necessarily be a limitation of the mythos literary genre. It's not a bug; it's a feature.

You could probably say the same thing about the "parable" genre, except the Church has always understood Jesus's parables to be stories that teach truth, not factual accounts.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Mythology was treated as fact in those days, at least to make a point.

Where do you find in the bible people treating biblical accounts as mythical stories.
What you have quoted is Paul giving a spiritual meaning to a factual account.

As I said, Mythology was treated as fact in those days, at least to make a point.
So, to answer your question, everywhere in the Bible. They seemed to make no distinction.
Except perhaps when the word "account" was used. Example below. The burning bush account.
Why did Jesus refer to it this way? And, "have you not read in the Book of Moses" ???

Mark 12:26
Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush,
how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?

Luke 20:37
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise,
for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


St. SteVen said:
Everyone interprets evidence through their own understanding. We do it too

It's not about understanding but about bias and truth.

If God has given us a true account, then to deliberately twist that account to make it say something else is to lie about God and his message.

This is why we don't understand mythology. We relegate it to a "false" story instead of looking at it as allegory.

You label mythology as NOT "true" and then assume the OT accounts therefore cannot be myth, because "God cannot lie."
But myths are not intended to be taken as "factual truth", but as allegorical truth.

Would you categorize the book A Pilgrim's Progress as a book of lies?

[

 

[St. SteVen]

You could probably say the same thing about the "parable" genre, except the Church has always understood Jesus's parables to be stories that teach truth, not factual accounts.

That's a great point. We read the parables and try to understand the point, but fail to see the OT that way.
(I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth)

[

 

[Lambano]

One of the NT Wright books I was reading spends considerable ink talking about "metanarratives". A metanarrative is the grand story in which we live. The Fall in the Garden of Eden is major part of our story, because it defines the problem we all live with: Human sin and Death. And that's a Truth that's not going away.

 

[St. SteVen]

A metanarrative is the grand story in which we live.

Wow.
Even makes me wonder if there was story/myth/metanarrative outside the parables.
Which might explain why we don't get the results we expect when we declare something in Jesus' name.
Of the hundreds of times I have done this, I have seen very meager results. Could even be circumstance.
Is this biblical "TRUTH" really a myth?

John 14:14 NIV
You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

John 16:23 NIV
In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you,
my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

John 16:24 NIV
Until now you have not asked for anything in my name.
Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.


[

 

[Lambano]

Wow.
Even makes me wonder if there was story/myth/metanarrative outside the parables.
Which might explain why we don't get the results we expect when we declare something in Jesus' name.
Of the hundreds of times I have done this, I have seen very meager results. Could even be circumstance.
Is this biblical "TRUTH" really a myth?

John 14:14 NIV
You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

John 16:23 NIV
In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you,
my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

John 16:24 NIV
Until now you have not asked for anything in my name.
Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.


[

I dunno. Is there a Truth on a deeper level than the literal that Jesus might be trying to tell us?

I'm still grousing about my own unanswered prayers.

 

[RedFan]

We have to draw the line somewhere between mythos/allegory/parable and factual reality (for me, the resurrection is top of the list). But I don't think that line can be drawn intelligently at the promise or expectation or prediction stage. If Jesus was being allegorical in promising that what is asked for in his name will be granted, yet we see that it isn't always "true," how would we describe the "truth" that is to be extracted from his promise?

The test for whether something in Scripture is even a candidate for mythos as opposed to factual understanding is whether we can conceive of a message carried by the mythos.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, that is a barrier to understanding this. Today "myth" is seen as untrue.
People who hold the Bible in high regard bristle at the term.


There was more. Later in life he lived with Jethro the Priest of Midian who had scrolls of their knowledge.
How much of the Genesis account was borrowed from that knowledge? The mythologies of Egypt and Midian.

[

The Genesis account is found in other ancient writings - although not as specific and definitely with more mythology (todays meaning).

As to your question about Moses....
It's an interesting question because this would have to be answered and I'm not knowledgeable enough:

Did Moses write down stories that were being passed down from generation to generation...
or
Did he write the Genesis account from scratch?
IOW, Is HE the person that was inspired by God?

I know for a fact that Genesis was written by more than one person...so it took more than just one person, Moses.
I'm sorry I can't remember the terms for these persons right now but I could look it up...
One of them is the Priestly writer, for instance.

I'd say that different persons were inspired and/or illuminated (slightly different).

What do YOU believe to be true?

 

[GodsGrace]

I wonder how he learned to write in Hebrew.

Are you really wondering?
Or do you know and are asking a rhetorical question?
Spit it out!!

 

[GodsGrace]

I wonder how he learned to write in Hebrew.

Oh. I just realized what you mean.
Yes...this is a problem, but if we can accept that perhaps Moses did not write all of Genesis the problem would be solved.
Are you familiar with the different writers theory?
I touched on it in post 56 but my knowledge in this is limited - have forgotten a lot.

 

[St. SteVen]

I dunno. Is there a Truth on a deeper level than the literal that Jesus might be trying to tell us?

The verses I quoted (pasted below) are pretty much a blank check for his followers.
But he didn't operate that way. "Not my will but thine be done." (from memory) But...

He also said, "... whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do
even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father." - John 14:12 NIV
When will we see that day?

John 14:14 NIV
You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

John 16:23 NIV
In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you,
my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

John 16:24 NIV
Until now you have not asked for anything in my name.
Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

[

 

[Lambano]

The verses I quoted (pasted below) are pretty much a blank check for his followers.

Or maybe those promises were for his immediate audience: Pete, Jimmy, John, Andy, Tommy, Nate, Phil, Matt, and Not so fast, Lambano.