Was wine non-alcoholic in Jesus's time?

[VictoryinJesus]

Abuse could supersede a discussion on any topic. It’s really 2 different topics.

I’m sorry but I don’t see how you can have one without the other. Like the woman with the issue of blood. Her topic is relevant to physical healing, and just as relevant to Spiritual healing. Her story of the physicians that couldn’t heal her, and the One who could are both relevant. Could be the topic of wine in His time; IS the answer to abuse of wine in ours. meaning if His topic was drinking the Holy Spirit and you will be filled.
Why want to talk about wine and not the antidote to the abusive of it?

NEW THREAD: Disciplining children in Jesus’ time.

ABUSIFIED: Most discipline is now called child abuse. Here is my personal story …

Same with “wine” is also “discipline of children” …those verses can be used to support an opinion man has but, again, is that ever truly the point in “take the rod to your child and in doing so, you will save your child from death.” To me this speaks of Gods’ chastisement of His children not as our father’s disciplined after their own pleasure; but His for our profit. To me that verse is not disclosing a way for man but is instead telling us again what His discipline accomplishes. Which is that we may share in the Fathers likeness. Huge differences in “here is my personal story” that may make you sad, but at the same time it will reveal the opposite of God the Fathers discipline and His discipline of His children in bringing them out of their bondage. Ultimately the “rod”
That delivers a child out of death being His Rod. Not a stick or switch. Not a literal one. I don’t think that was ever the point. So we can talk about the literal ones “switches” if you want. Make a topic about it and sure you will get sad stories of “this is my story. Of “in the wrong hands” and you may go “oh hush you now, your story is not the point.” God is the point. Ok …which story do you want then to stay on topic? Only: Where Jesus turned water into the best wine?

NEW THREAD: Health care in Jesus’ time.

ABUSIFIED: Perhaps the rich got some modicum of health care in Jesus’ time, the vast majority of people got none. Here is my personal story …

“health care in Jesus’ time”
Never thought about it much, but it doesn’t appear to be much different today. Yes we have medicine but most of the time just like the physicians the woman with an issue of blood went to …there were no answers. Same with scholars and teachers of His time saying “what doctrine is this that this man speaks of? Who has heard such things as this man speaks?” There is a feeling of hopelessness I feel because no physician really can tell me what MS is, why I have it, or what track or path it will take. Same with my mind…not many psychiatrists can tell me where it all went wrong and how to get it back. I think I got the most honest answer from a psychiatrist the other day, they said “we can give you an antidepressant but it isn’t perfect. It is not going to fix or take away your problems. It will only help. That is its job, to aide or help with what you are going through to make it easier. But there is no perfect medicine.” I’m sorry if that is too much “let me tell you my story”. I do that. I read His word …with my wrong story very familiar and intimate…how it all went sideways…by the way I don’t think He gets tired or worn out by my story. In fact I think He has been touched by it. He says “ok. Now Let Me tell you My Story.” If you want to have a thread about Christ story about drinking wine …I am going to ask “what is the point?”

What is your point?
Because I will say it again; I don’t think our point on drinking wine, is the same as His point on drinking wine. I also don’t think his usage of “wine” doesn’t translate fairly to “liquor”
And “beer”. Or “a sword”
Into “a gun”
Maybe we like to think so, but I’m not convinced because of His Story, not mine.

 

[Wrangler]

I’m sorry but I don’t see how you can have one without the other.

Try harder. One is objective. The other is subjective.

Objective: Was there wine in Jesus' day? Yes or No.

Subjective: Let me tell you how I feel about abuse ...

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Try harder. One is objective. The other is subjective.

Objective: Was there wine in Jesus' day? Yes or No.

Subjective: Let me tell you how I feel about abuse ...

Maybe wrong but Jesus maybe could tell a story of how He feels about abuse.

Was there wine in Jesus’ day?
Yes.
Let me ask you: what is your point that there was wine in Jesus’ day?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Try harder. One is objective. The other is subjective.

Objective: Was there wine in Jesus' day? Yes or No.

Subjective: Let me tell you how I feel about abuse .

Ok. I see your point. Subjective: Based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions. Objective: (of a person or their judgement) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

 

[Wrangler]

Was there wine in Jesus’ day?
Yes.
Let me ask you: what is your point that there was wine in Jesus’ day?

I am a logical, fact based man. I prefer to start with the facts. And the fact is that there was wine with alcohol in Jesus' day and he drank it.

That is all.

 

[Wrangler]

Objective: (of a person or their judgement) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

Well, objective is independent of a person or their judgement or their personal feelings.

Objective Fact: Mozart was a musical composer.

Objective Analysis: Mozart is widely considered one of the greatest classical composers of all time.

Subjective Analysis: Let me tell you about how I feel when I listen to music, in general, and Mozart, in particular ...

Regarding wine, by definition, it is a liquid that contains alcohol. This is an objective fact. I question the agenda of anyone who claims otherwise. It is a word game to assert the existence of non-alcoholic wine. It's like asserting the existence of a human being who does not exist in time and space. Huh? What is your agenda is making such an epistemological error?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I am a logical, fact based man. I prefer to start with the facts. And the fact is that there was wine with alcohol in Jesus' day and he drank it.

That is all.

Okay. Again I do see your point. It is that simple yea? The topic of the thread(unless I misunderstand), is do you think there was alcohol in the wine. Because others debate there wasn’t. Not that there was wine, but was it fermented wine? Some say no he didn’t drink ferment fruit of the vine. Others say yes he drank ferment fruit of the vine. You being a logical man in facts, I think, again if I understand you are making the point “it is a simple. yes. The fruit from the vine was fermented.” Not unfermented.

It that a fair understanding?

You are right again that the fruit of the vine is always the center of the discussion on whether it was fermented or not. So much so I know little to nothing about the bread …did the bread have yeast or not? Do we care what type of bread it was or was it just bread? The kind you bake and break with friends.

Neither of the above having anything to do with “let me tell you about abuse…”? Which is why you said it is sad that talking about whether the fruit of the vine was fermented or not …had to go there? “Let me tell you about abuse…”? You brought up bread for example: in discussing whether the bread had yeast in it or not; has absolutely nothing to do with overeating so it “overeating) shouldn’t be brought into?

Was the wine fermented?
Did the bread contain yeast?
Simply answers? Again what is your stance?

 

[Wrangler]

Not that there was wine, but was it fermented wine?

There is only one type of wine and that is fermented. To claim otherwise is to play word games, to call things by their improper names. Grape juice is not wine.

 

[Wrangler]

Did the bread contain yeast?

I'm not as knowledgable about bread as I am about wine. As far as I know, bread normally contains yeast. Again, by definition, normally or usually allows for instances where it lacks this attribute. This is why, when yeast is to be excluded in the Bible, it explicitly calls one to make 'unlevened' bread. By contrast, there is no Biblical call to drink 'unfermented' wine. And it is my position that is because it would be a contradiction in terms. From Definition of BREAD

bread​

1 of 2

noun​

ˈbred

Synonyms of bread
1
: a usually baked and leavened food made of a mixture whose basic constituent is flour or meal

From Definition of WINE

wine​

1 of 2

noun​

ˈwīn

often attributive
Synonyms of wine
1
a
: the alcoholic fermented juice of fresh grapes used as a beverage

 

[Candidus]

I am a wine maker. Grape juice would only be available in the autumn at harvest time. Without refrigeration systems, it would start to ferment within a couple months. The would be no grape juice at Passover time; and as for serving grape juice at a wedding celebration which often lasted for a week with most of the village present. At the Wedding at Cana, Jesus made about 120 gallons of wine. People who say that Jews served grape juice at a wedding are not familiar with Jewish culture; nor God’s culture.

BTW, fine wine is on the menu for The Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

So, what your are saying is... Jesus provided enough booze to have a Kegger!