Was the Transfiguration a vision, or an actual appearance of Moses and Elijah?

[St. SteVen]

If I were in a court scene and the self confessed witness was called to the stand to witness yet they only spoke of themselves, gave advice or pontificate, the Judge would dismiss them as an unreliable witness.....and we the jury would justifiably agree.

It might be a case of Bibliolatry.

Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author

I have encountered some that I thought had fallen into this trap. I asked them, "What would become of your faith if you put your whole library out on the curb on trash day?" The guilty are left mostly speechless. Or, alternatively VERY angry. How come? To be clear, I love the Bible and use...

www.christianityboard.com

[

 

[face2face]

It might be a case of Bibliolatry.

Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author

I have encountered some that I thought had fallen into this trap. I asked them, "What would become of your faith if you put your whole library out on the curb on trash day?" The guilty are left mostly speechless. Or, alternatively VERY angry. How come? To be clear, I love the Bible and use...

www.christianityboard.com

[

It's a danger to kiss the book (RCC) and not the God who inspired it! Allow it to give its light and don't project onto it your own imaginations.
F2F

 

[Aunty Jane]

OK @quietthinker ….Jehovah’s Witnesses are those who take the message (gospel, good news) of God’s Kingdom out to the people as Jesus instructed. (Matt 10:11-14; Matt 28:19-20; Matt 24:14) He commanded that it be done, so if you need me to tell you who Jehovah is and what he has done in the outworking of his purpose…..I could bend your ear for a few hours…pages and pages…..is that what you requested?

If you start at the beginning (like all good stories) you get a fair idea of what caused life to be so tragically difficult for so many people on this earth….then you get to understand why God took the decisions he did in solving the issues that satan raised in Eden…….wise and far reaching, to not only resolve the issues, and defend his Sovereign right to dictate the terms of the freedom he gave to his children…..he also wanted to also preserve the gift of free will, which was intended to be a precious gift. But in our sinful condition, it turned into a curse. Every evil act perpetrated on this earth is a result of the abuse of someone’s free will, exercised selfishly or with little regard as to consequences.

We had to learn to drive it….the hard way, since we could not be told. Perfect creatures chose to disobey their Supreme Sovereign and he could rightly have vaporized all three with just one breath, but he chose to allow humans and angels to see and experience the end result of their choices….with precedents set for all eternity, Jehovah can guarantee that rebellion will never happen again.…not in heaven or on earth.

Whilst so many in Christendom’s churches wonder why God has done this or that, and why so many people are suffering, wondering why God doesn’t fix what he has the power to do….they seem to have no idea what has gone on behind the scenes.

God and his adversary are engaged in a legal battle, because Satan has slandered his Creator with all kinds of accusations…enough to make a perfect woman doubt her Sovereign Creator, and basically commit suicide in the process. In tempting her husband as she herself was tempted, together they signed the death warrant for the entire human race. Was this God’s will in the beginning? He gave them a perfect start.

Once satan had achieved his aim, how was God going to rescue the children of these rebels.?…and at the same time educate them about the ways that satan uses to remove them from God’s favor, and prevent them from inheriting everlasting life?

Those who understand the big picture, can see clearly why God has responded to the original rebellion, the way he has. Once the precedents are set, they are there forever, so no rebel will ever rear their ugly head again…..no one will cause confusion about who God is, for all of those he saves, will know him and will understand what he requires of us mortals. His purpose for us has never changed (Isa 55:11)….so what he purposed in the beginning, will be achieved at the end….

Can you tell me what that original purpose was QT?

 

[face2face]

Once satan had achieved his aim, how was God going to rescue the children of these rebels.?…and at the same time educate them about the ways that satan uses to remove them from God’s favor, and prevent them from inheriting everlasting life?

Again, you cannot prove an angel fell, you have no connection or back story to show this make believe creature imitated a serpent or exists at all!

Projecting once agani!

F2F

 

[quietthinker]

OK @quietthinker ….Jehovah’s Witnesses are those who take the message (gospel, good news) of God’s Kingdom out to the people as Jesus instructed. (Matt 10:11-14; Matt 28:19-20; Matt 24:14) He commanded that it be done, so if you need me to tell you who Jehovah is and what he has done in the outworking of his purpose…..I could bend your ear for a few hours…pages and pages…..is that what you requested?

My request was for you to tell me OF Jehovah ie, an introduction into his character. Commands or threats do not elicit attraction, they generate obligation. Attraction is also not generated by talking about yourself particularly when the request was to know (which you claim) OF Jehovah.

Here is an example; I said to the girl I was going out with, please marry me; if you do you will have a wonderful life with all the trappings; if you refuse, I'm sorry but I'll have to blow your brains out.

Do you understand this example in the light of the purpose of this exchange?

 

[ChristinaL]

Did Elijah go to heaven? Is that what is says in 2 Kings 2:11?

There is sound Scriptural reason to believe that Elijah was carried away into the “sky”, not taken to “heaven” at all.

First of all because the Bible plainly says that no one went to heaven before Jesus….
John 3:13….
”…no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man.”

….that means that no dead people ever went to heaven before he did. Jews believed that “sheol” was the grave….a place where the dead slept in an unconscious condition. (Eccl 9:5, 10) The same place from which Jesus raised his friend Lazarus, whom he said was “sleeping”. (John 11:11-14)

And no human can go to heaven because it is a spiritual realm in which mere mortals cannot exist. (1 Cor 15:50) Those who will be taken to heaven must of necessity shed their human flesh to take on a spiritual body in order to dwell where God and the angels reside.
This was revealed only after Jesus death and resurrection, with the outpouring of the holy spirit at Pentecost.

Secondly the word in Hebrew where Elijah was taken is “šāmayim”, which means…
heaven, heavens, sky…

1. visible heavens, sky
   1. as abode of the stars
   2. as the visible universe, the sky, atmosphere, etc

Genesis ch 1 speaks of the birds flying there. So this word does not translate as the “heavens” where God resides but the physical heavens, where birds fly….sometimes translated as “the firmament”…..or the expanse of earth’s atmosphere. Elijah was transported to another destination and assignment by God in a most spectacular fashion.

And the third reason is that Elijah sent a letter to King Jehoram some time after he was taken from his assignment in that windstorm and his place was taken by Elisha, who does not go through the custmary period of mourning, because if his Master was taken to heaven, he would have to have died in order to go there.
It was a number of years after his being taken in the windstorm, that Elijah is still alive and active as a prophet, this time to the king of Judah.
Because of the wicked course taken by King Jehoram of Judah, Elijah writes him a letter expressing God’s condemnation, which is fulfilled shortly thereafter. (2 Chronicles 21:12-15)

So the evidence is just not there that Elijah went to heaven before Jesus.

Only those taken into the new covenant have that privilege….and it is the apostles who form the foundation of God’s Kingdom in heaven. (Rev 21:14) It was with them that Jesus instituted that new covenant.
The ancients were content with receiving a future resurrection under the rule of that Kingdom (Heb 11:13) …..they will be resurrected to take up important roles in the earthly part of God’s Kingdom no doubt, having received God’s spirit and blessing during their lifetime of faithful service.

"Carried away into the sky"......of if not heaven then tell us where is Elijah? The commentary you used is mindless nonsense

 

[Aunty Jane]

"Carried away into the sky"......of if not heaven then tell us where is Elijah? The commentary you used is mindless nonsense

The ”commentary” you are denying, is a widely held and respected source of reference.…Strongs Concordance. The only mindless nonsense is from those who don’t know their Bible but like to pretend that they do.
The same word is used to describe the physical heavens above and beyond the Earth’s atmosphere……as well as the spiritual heavens where God and his angels reside.
Elijah did not go to heaven because the Scriptures tell that he remained on earth. He would have died a natural death like all the other ancient servants of God who did not believe in immortal souls, but in the resurrection of the dead back to life on earth.

Jews had no notions about going to heaven because they believed that death was the opposite of life…. so, who changed that unalterable truth? The one who told Eve…”you surely will not die”….he lied.

If you have read any of the exchanges here, it has all been explained very clearly…..
Elijah was transported in a windstorm to another location on earth where he acted as a prophet to the King of Judah. He wrote a letter to that king some years later.….it was not “heaven sent”.

Where is Elijah today? He is sleeping in his grave with all the other faithful ones of old who died before Jesus opened the way to heaven, which “calling” was only for ‘the chosen ones‘ among his disciples. (Heb 3:1)

Hebrews ch11 recounts some of those ancient faithful ones and says of them….

”In faith all of these died, although they did not receive the fulfillment of the promises; but they saw them from a distance and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land.”

This world was not the one that God purposed for any of us to live in…it is the one we inherited when God gave rulership of it over to the devil to prove what a deluded loser he was. (Luke 4:5-7; 1 John 5:19) He would use the devil to separate the “sheep“ from the “goats”….

Paul goes on to say of these ancient ones..…Vs 39-40…
”And yet all of these, although they received a favorable witness because of their faith, did not obtain the fulfillment of the promise, 40 because God had foreseen something better for us, so that they might not be made perfect apart from us.”

Those ancient ones would not precede the ones chosen by God for life in heaven…..so they would “sleep” and await the promised resurrection, back to this earth to enjoy all that God purposed for mankind at the beginning. (Isa 55:11)
It never was a training ground for heaven….it was lovingly created to be mankind’s permanent home. (Rev 21:2-4)

 

[ChristinaL]

Again, you cannot prove an angel fell, you have no connection or back story to show this make believe creature imitated a serpent or exists at all!

Projecting once agani!

F2F

I have seen Satan (and the devil is female btw) so dont you dare tell me she doesnt exist

 

[ChristinaL]

The ”commentary” you are denying, is a widely held and respected source of reference.…Strongs Concordance. The only mindless nonsense is from those who don’t know their Bible but like to pretend that they do.
The same word is used to describe the physical heavens above and beyond the Earth’s atmosphere……as well as the spiritual heavens where God and his angels reside.
Elijah did not go to heaven because the Scriptures tell that he remained on earth. He would have died a natural death like all the other ancient servants of God who did not believe in immortal souls, but in the resurrection of the dead back to life on earth.

Jews had no notions about going to heaven because they believed that death was the opposite of life…. so, who changed that unalterable truth? The one who told Eve…”you surely will not die”….he lied.

If you have read any of the exchanges here, it has all been explained very clearly…..
Elijah was transported in a windstorm to another location on earth where he acted as a prophet to the King of Judah. He wrote a letter to that king some years later.….it was not “heaven sent”.

Where is Elijah today? He is sleeping in his grave with all the other faithful ones of old who died before Jesus opened the way to heaven, which “calling” was only for ‘the chosen ones‘ among his disciples. (Heb 3:1)

Hebrews ch11 recounts some of those ancient faithful ones and says of them….

”In faith all of these died, although they did not receive the fulfillment of the promises; but they saw them from a distance and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land.”

This world was not the one that God purposed for any of us to live in…it is the one we inherited when God gave rulership of it over to the devil to prove what a deluded loser he was. (Luke 4:5-7; 1 John 5:19) He would use the devil to separate the “sheep“ from the “goats”….

Paul goes on to say of this ancient ones..…Vs 39-40…
”And yet all of these, although they received a favorable witness because of their faith, did not obtain the fulfillment of the promise, 40 because God had foreseen something better for us, so that they might not be made perfect apart from us.”

Those ancient ones would not precede the ones chosen by God for life in heaven…..so they would “sleep” and await the promised resurrection, back to this earth to enjoy all that God purposed for mankind at the beginning. (Isa 55:11)
It never was a training ground for heaven….it was lovingly created to be mankind’s permanent home. (Rev 21:2-4)

You do not know the scriptures at all.

When Satan said 'you surely will not die', the serpent said that because Eve was thinking they would die physically that very day, but God was speaking primarily of spiritual death.

Elijah was not transported by a windstorm to another location that is utter bs. He was not a prophet to some King of Judah and didnt write any letter

The quote from heb 11 speaks of all who DIED in faith but Elijah and Enoch did not die

The BODY sleeps. Soul sleep is a Satanic lie

 

[Johann]

You do not know the scriptures at all.

When Satan said 'you surely will not die', the serpent said that because Eve was thinking they would die physically that very day, but God was speaking primarily of spiritual death.

Elijah was not transported by a windstorm to another location that is utter bs. He was not a prophet to some King of Judah and didnt write any letter

The quote from heb 11 speaks of all who DIED in faith but Elijah and Enoch did not die

The BODY sleeps. Soul sleep is a Satanic lie

Guess, since you are new here, leave that baggage at the door, don't bring it in here.

There's enough chaos as it is.

J.

 

[Johann]

I have seen Satan (and the devil is female btw) so dont you dare tell me she doesnt exist

Where do you get that from? "The devil is a female?"

The devil, also known as Satan, is generally considered a male figure, though not in a strictly biological sense, as angels and spiritual beings in the Bible do not have gender in the way humans do. The Bible refers to Satan with masculine pronouns, particularly in the original Hebrew and Greek texts. For instance, in the book of Job (Job 1:6-12), Satan is referred to as "he" using masculine pronouns in Hebrew.

In Isaiah 14:12-15, where the fall of Lucifer is described, Lucifer is also depicted using masculine pronouns, although the term "Lucifer" itself is more symbolic, referring to a "morning star" or "light-bringer." This passage is often interpreted as a metaphor for Satan’s fall from grace.

In the New Testament, Satan is often referred to in Greek as "ho diabolos" (ὁ διάβολος), which is a masculine noun, meaning "the slanderer" or "accuser." Jesus speaks of Satan as "the father of lies" (John 8:44), again using masculine language.

It's important to remember that these descriptions are not necessarily about physical gender but rather about the roles and attributes assigned to Satan in biblical narrative. The spiritual nature of angels and demons makes gender distinctions less applicable than they are for humans.
SATAN/DEVIL IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
There is surely progressive revelation in the NT as to the development of evil, but not as elaborate as the rabbis claim. A good example of this difference is the "war in heaven." The fall of Satan (Devil) is a logical necessity, but the specifics are not given (see SPECIAL TOPIC: THE FALL OF SATAN AND HIS ANGELS). Even what is given is veiled in apocalyptic genre (cf. Rev. 12:4,7,12-13; see SPECIAL TOPIC: APOCALYPTIC LITERATURE). Although Satan (Devil; see SPECIAL TOPIC: DEVIL) is defeated and exiled to earth, he still functions as a servant of YHWH (cf. Matt. 4:1; Luke 22:31-32; 1 Cor. 5:5; 1 Tim. 1:20).
 We must curb our curiosity in this area. There is a personal force of temptation and evil, but there is still only one God and mankind is still responsible for his/her choices. There is a spiritual battle, both before and after salvation (i.e., Romans 7; Ephesians 6). Victory can only come and remain in and through the Triune God. Evil has been defeated and will be removed (cf. Luke 10:18; John 12:31; Rom. 16:20; Heb. 2:14-15; 1 John 2:13; 3:8; 5:18; Rev. 20:10)!
This angelic being is called by several names/titles in the NT (mostly alphabetical order)
the most common (devil, devils)
"Devil" ‒ diabolos, many times, beginning in Jesus' temptation in the wilderness in Matthew 4 and Luke 4; also featured in 1 John 3:8,10 and Revelation 12 and 20; see SPECIAL TOPIC: DEVIL
"devils" ‒ diamonion (Beelzebub as prince of demons, note the PLURAL), many times in the Gospels
"accuser" ‒ Rev. 12:10 (many names/titles in Revelation 12)
"adversary" ‒ 1 Pet. 5:8
"Beelzebub" ‒ Matt. 12:24,27; Mark 3:22; Luke 11:15,19
"Beliel" ‒ 2 Cor. 6:15
"deceiver" ‒ Rev. 12:9 (disguised himself as an Angel of Light ‒ 2 Cor. 11:14-15)
"enemy" ‒ Matt. 13:39
"evil one" ‒ Matt. 5:39; 6:13; 13:19,38; John 17:15; Eph. 6:16; 2 Thess. 3:3; 1 John 2:13; 3:12; 5:18-19
"father of lies" ‒ John 8:44
"god of this world (age) ‒ 2 Cor. 4:4
"great dragon" ("the serpent of old," Genesis 3) ‒ Rev. 12:3
"murderer" ‒ John 8:44
"the prince of the power of the air" ‒ Eph. 2:2
"the ruler of this world" ‒ John 12:31; 16:11 (also note 1 John 5:19)
"sinner" ‒ 1 John 3:8
"tempter" ‒ Matt. 4:3; 1 Thess. 3:5
These titles are descriptive of his character and agenda! For more descriptive titles, see SPECIAL TOPIC: DEVIL

SPECIAL TOPIC: PERSONAL EVIL

Personal Evil -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

www.freebiblecommentary.org

J.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I have seen Satan (and the devil is female btw) so dont you dare tell me she doesnt exist

Well, I know who is having a lend of you…..”the devil is female”?! And you have seen her? A spirit creature has gender? I think you just cancelled out any credibility that you think you had.

Do we understand what gender is for?
Do we understand why God presented himself and his son as “male”?
Do we know why the angels never presented themselves as “female”?

Please give us your understanding of these things….

You do not know the scriptures at all.

I certainly know what Scripture teaches in its entirety, without resorting to false accusations. With every post you seem to have an attitude problem and with the above admission, I think we should take everything you say with several grains of salt.

When Satan said 'you surely will not die', the serpent said that because Eve was thinking they would die physically that very day, but God was speaking primarily of spiritual death.

Since both of these conditions resulted from the rebellion in Eden, what was the devil telling Eve? Did she understand what spiritual death was? NO! She assumed that he meant the physical death that was the penalty for taking the fruit of the tree that was the only one in the garden, that God had claimed as his own property. The death penalty applied because stealing from your Sovereign is a capital crime. The fruit did not belong to her….she stole it….but only after the devil had negated the penalty, and made it seem beneficial to break God’s law.

He told the woman that she would not die physically, but in his far reaching plan, he would cover over the fact that physical death happened, by suggesting that you don’t really die….you can go on living in another form, in another realm. Was that what God told Adam? (Gen 3:19) What did ‘returning to the dust’ mean to him? Is that what God taught his people about death? (Eccl 9:5, 10)

Elijah was not transported by a windstorm to another location that is utter bs. He was not a prophet to some King of Judah and didnt write any letter

Elijah was still alive and active as a prophet at least five years later, apparently over in the territory of Judah. The Bible tells us: “Eventually there came a writing to [Jehoram, king of Judah] from Elijah the prophet.” This letter foretold the sickness and death of Jehoram because of his wrong, idolatrous course. (2 Chron 21:12-15)

A further evidence that Elijah did not die at the time of being taken into the “heavens” is that his servant and successor Elisha did not then hold the customary period of mourning for his master.

The quote from heb 11 speaks of all who DIED in faith but Elijah and Enoch did not die

It says plainly that Enoch “died”…..for goodness sake, do your homework. (Heb 11:5) How did Enoch not “see death”? God took his life gently so that his enemies would not do away with him in some terrible fashion.

It says that “before he was transferred, (from life to death) he received the witness that he had pleased God well.” Think on that for a moment if you can, and understand how redundant that statement would be if Enoch had gone to heaven?

The BODY sleeps. Soul sleep is a Satanic lie

Someone has swallowed the devil’s lie…..but you have lots of company….’immortal souls’ were the devil’s first lie. You will not find those two words side by side in a single passage of Scripture.

Where is the scriptural back up or evidence for anything you say?

 

[face2face]

"Carried away into the sky"......of if not heaven then tell us where is Elijah? The commentary you used is mindless nonsense

Elijah is dead and buried awaiting the resurrection.

 

[face2face]

I have seen Satan (and the devil is female btw) so dont you dare tell me she doesnt exist

Crackpot!

 

[quietthinker]

Crackpot!

I guess by making the above statement, you're assuming your pot is not cracked?

 

[face2face]

I guess by making the above statement, you're assuming your pot is not cracked?

I mean comón quiet, there is no such thing! As the meaning of the word implies "their head's full of crackpot ideas"

The only satan they have seen is a figment of their imagination.

F2F

 

[face2face]

I guess by making the above statement, you're assuming your pot is not cracked?

But to answer you question which is in the context of whether a fallen angle exists, no, my pot is not cracked lol

 

[quietthinker]

I mean comón quiet, there is no such thing! As the meaning of the word implies "their head's full of crackpot ideas"

The only satan they have seen is a figment of their imagination.

F2F

Are you definitively able to determine what another person has seen?

 

[Johann]

Are you definitively able to determine what another person has seen?

You know what Gnosticism is-right.

The spirit of this heresy is present with us today when people turn Christianity into an exclusive intellectual eliteness.

J.

 

[face2face]

Are you definitively able to determine what another person has seen?

Yes, because the claim is false...there is no such thing as fiery evil divine being (female) quiet.