Was the Transfiguration a vision, or an actual appearance of Moses and Elijah?
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Do you happen to do original language word studies at all, @TrevorHL ?
We have translated the Greek according to the words written in that language.
In Matthew the word “coming” (“erchomai”) is used because that is what is written in Greek......and it means.....
“to come
of persons
to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning
to appear, make one's appearance, come before the public” (Strongs)
The word Peter used is “parousia”, which means....“presence”.
It includes the arrival, but someone’s “presence” means that they are already here, even if you did not see them arrive, or “come” into your presence.
So I will stand by the NWT, which I have found to be so much more accurate and reliable than the old outdated KJV.
You imply that our translation is faulty, when in actual fact it is the KJV that is misleading.
Throughout Matthew Ch 24, we see the repeated use of “parousia” in relation to Jesus prophesy on his return.
(Matt 24:3; 27; 37; 39) So “if “coming” was meant, it would be stated.....but “presence” is more correct.
Jesus gave the “sign of his presence”….not the sign of his “coming”. He is already here and has been for a long time, the sign has been fulfilled in every detail since his return. He has been busy overseeing the work he assigned his disciples to carry out “till the end” of the present world system of things ruled by the devil…..and only when that preaching work is carried out to its completion, will “the end” come. (Matt 24:14; Matt 28:19-20)
It is now not far away….
It always makes me smile when I hear people tell me what we believe.....what you just stated is inaccurate.
We most certainly do not deny that Jesus will return because he clearly stated that he would.
So what does his return mean for Christians and those who are not?
The capacity in which he returns is that of judge and executioner, with his angelic forces. (Matt 25:32-33; 41; 46) The ‘separating of the sheep from the goats’ will be finalized in their sentence being carried out.
It will be a very visible event and no one will not know or wonder what is happening and why.
What does the Bible say? Let’s take a closer look....
Acts 1:10–11 (KJV): 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Acts 1:10-11 (NWT 2013) 10 And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, suddenly two men in white* garments stood beside them 11 and said: “Men of Galʹi·lee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was taken up from you into the sky will come in the same manner as you have seen him going into the sky.”
Here it is from Strongs (NASB) with the numbers so you can see what word is used....and how it is translated from the Greek…..
Acts 1:10
“And as they were gazing G816 intently G816 into the sky G3772 while He was going, G4198 behold, G2400 two G1417 men G435 in white G3022 clothing G2067 stood G3936 beside G3936”
Acts 1:11
“They also G2532 said, G3004 “Men G435 of Galilee, G1057 why G5101 do you stand G2476 looking G991 into the sky? G3772 This G3778 Jesus, G2424 who has been taken G353 up from you into heaven, G3772 will come G2064 in just G3779 the same G5158 way G5158 as you have watched G2300 Him go G4198 into heaven.” G3772”
Tell me what you see in the way these words are translated.....”sky” and “heaven” are the same word, but translated differently…..from their earthly human standpoint, Jesus was going up into the sky. A cloud caught him from their vision and Jesus disappeared from their sight.….just as we might see a airplane disappear into clouds. The apostles were not gazing into heaven…were they? They were looking into the sky.
Acts 3:19–21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Yes….Jesus went to heaven as it was prophesied in Psalm 110:1-2….to “sit at God’s right hand until his enemies were placed as a stool for his feet”. When that time came, it was the time for “restitution of all things”….the coming of God’s kingdom, to fix everything that was broken by the rebellion in Eden.
But Christ was to “begin ruling in the midst of his enemies”…..not a time of peace, but a time of turmoil…..of “anguish of nations not knowing the way out” of the troubles that these end times would produce. (Luke 21:25-28)
Acts 3:19-21 (NWT): 19 “Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out,s so that seasons of refreshing may come from Jehovah himself 20 and he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus. 21 Heaven must hold this one within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old.
It’s all in the way you see what is really written, as opposed to what you think is written. Jesus will not leave heaven to reside here on earth again…why would he need to? That mission was completed almost 2000 years ago. He went back to heaven from whence he came, to take up his role as the appointed King of God’s Kingdom. Heaven is the place where he went to “prepare a place” for his elect.…his “chosen ones” (saints)
Heaven is the place from which their rulership will be administered, through the humans that God will choose to maintain his order here.…more than likely those who have already proven themselves in the past to be excellent leaders…..Noah, Abraham, and Moses come to mind as outstanding examples of faith and courage.
Revelation 21:2-4 shows us what the coming of God’s Kingdom to rule redeemed mankind will mean for this earth. A restoration of all that God purposed in the beginning.…the whole reason why Jesus came in the first place to bring us back to God’s original purpose for us. (Isa55:11)
None of the ancients was taken into the “new covenant”…all died before Jesus came to open the opportunity to become “kings and priests” in that coming Kingdom. (Rev 20:6) The number is clearly stated as “144,00 bought from the earth” “from among mankind” (Rev 14:1-4) which began with the choosing of the apostles….these form the foundations of God’s Kingdom, not the ancients who, like John the Baptist, died before Jesus opened the way to heaven, and so these have an earthly hope.
Why do you see it as a “lesser role” when any assignment from God is a privilege? If they serve him in heaven or on earth, it is all still part of Jehovah’s original purpose……to have an earth populated with obedient ones who will take care of all that he has made, and being endowed with his qualities, they will look after his creation as he would.
People get so fixated on going to heaven, that they forget where God created us to live forever….right here in paradise on earth…..that purpose never changed, but Christendom ran away with themselves, and made the Bible say what it never did.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Verse 10 is as vital as verse 5…and 6 for that matter….
From the Jewish Tanakh….
| For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten. | הכִּ֧י הַֽחַיִּ֛ים יֽוֹדְעִ֖ים שֶׁיָּמֻ֑תוּ וְהַמֵּתִ֞ים אֵינָ֧ם יֽוֹדְעִ֣ים מְא֗וּמָה וְאֵֽין־ע֤וֹד לָהֶם֙ שָׂכָ֔ר כִּ֥י נִשְׁכַּ֖ח זִכְרָֽם: | |
| 6 Also their love, as well as their hate, as well as their provocation has already been lost, and they have no more share forever in all that is done under the sun. | וגַּ֣ם אַֽהֲבָתָ֧ם גַּם־שִׂנְאָתָ֛ם גַּם־קִנְאָתָ֖ם כְּבָ֣ר אָבָ֑דָה וְחֵ֨לֶק אֵֽין־לָהֶ֥ם עוֹד֙ לְעוֹלָ֔ם בְּכֹ֥ל אֲשֶֽׁר־נַֽעֲשָׂ֖ה תַּ֥חַת הַשָּֽׁמֶשׁ: |
| 10 Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave, where you are going. | יכֹּ֠ל אֲשֶׁ֨ר תִּמְצָ֧א יָֽדְךָ֛ לַֽעֲשׂ֥וֹת בְּכֹֽחֲךָ֖ עֲשֵׂ֑ה כִּי֩ אֵ֨ין מַֽעֲשֶׂ֤ה וְחֶשְׁבּוֹן֙ וְדַ֣עַת וְחָכְמָ֔ה בִּשְׁא֕וֹל אֲשֶׁ֥ר אַתָּ֖ה הֹלֵ֥ךְ שָֽׁמָּה: |
Don’t rely on later Jewish Talmud interpretations because Jesus rejected the Pharisees interpretation in his day as “doctrines of men” (Matt 15:7-9) telling them that it invalidated their worship.
What did Solomon write as opposed to what is translated into our English Bibles?
Verse 6 speaks of human emotions….even “love” as being “lost”. Why would God’s most important attribute, programmed into humans as part of being made in God’s image, be missing after death?
“Sheol” is rendered “the grave” because the ancient Jews did not believe in conscious life after death as an immediate event, depending on a pagan Greek idea about an immortal soul, which is not found in God’s word.
They believed in resurrection, which was to take place under the rule of Messiah’s kingdom....a future event as Jesus taught. (John 5:28:29)
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TrevorHL
Member
Greetings again Aunty Jane,
Kind regards
Trevor
I do not have time this morning to answer every minor detail, but the above is part of the JW concept that Jesus returned in 1914, and this return was an invisible presence. I believe that when Jesus returns he will no longer be in heaven as stated in Acts 3:19-21, but he will be literally on earth and will be seen by the Apostles and faithful in the same manner as the Apostles saw him after the resurrection and upon the Mount of Olives.
When Christ comes he will first engage the nations in the Battle of Armageddon, and he will subdue the nations and other opposition at that time and then rule over the remnant of the nations when he reigns on the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem for the 1000 years.
The New Covenant is the Covenant made with Abraham, and Abraham will be a partaker as a result of the confirmation of this Covenant by the blood of Jesus.
JWs also believe in heaven going.
Kind regards
Trevor
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
In keeping with what is taught in the entirety of Scripture, I don’t have to “make” anything of them….I interpret them through the eyes of those who wrote them.
The resurrection is a sure hope held out to all but the incorrigibly wicked, so because God can see the future as clearly as he sees the past and the present (omniscience) “to him they are all alive” because he can already see them at work in his new world.
The rich man and Lazarus is a parable that if taken literally, is absurd.
How would Jews have interpreted Jesus illustration? The bosom of Abraham is a position of favor with God.
The Pharisees, pictured by the rich man, changed places with the beggar who pictured the “lost sheep” or the spiritually impoverished ones to whom Jesus was sent. The religious leaders lost their place in God’s arrangement by rejecting their Messiah, but the ones who accepted Jesus as the one they were waiting for, took their place as the favored ones in God’s eyes now.
John is speaking about spiritual death. Physical death is already conquered by Jesus’ sacrifice and the resurrection hope…it is the living who can be walking around as physically living, but spiritually dead people.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
The year 1914 is calculated according to Daniel’s prophesy and each part of the sign fits that period of time perfectly….from the unprecedented warfare to the earthquakes and pestilences, the false prophets…..and to the love of the majority becoming cold and uncaring. Christians were to be persecuted and hated because of adhering to their faith. (Matt 24:3-14) They would be “no part of the world”…no part of its corrupt politics…it’s greedy commercialism…or its inept and hypocritical false religion. They would also be active evangelists…
What was the 1914 War called?……“The First World War”…..a kind of warfare that mankind had never before experienced, at a time when it seemed the least likely to happen.
An obscure figure, Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated in Sarajev, (Yugoslavia) which set in motion a chain of events that brought the whole world into conflict. They called it “the shot that was heard around the world” because of the repercussions that ensued. Alliances that were made drew nations into battle who had no horses in that race…..no monkeys in that circus.
Christ’s first action as king of God’s Kingdom was to oust satan and his hordes from heaven….something John saw in his Revelation, which was given towards the end of the first century and contained prophesy that would occur at the time of the end….which was then, yet future.
Rev 12:7-12 says….
”And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”
From 1914 onward we have seen the gradual disintegration of society to where we are now…. with an angry reaction to this, the devil and his hordes have been busy whipping up violence and immorality which are rife even in nations who profess to be “Christian”. As Jesus predicted, things on earth would be “just like the days of Noah” (Matt 24:37-39)…..the time prior to the first cleansing of the earth by a flood……the second cleansing will be by fire…..the fire of Jehovah’s anger at those who deliberately ignore his Sovereignty and treat their fellow man with contempt and treat his creation as a garbage tip.
The continual creation and manufacture of the most heinous weapons imaginable, are now either in existence, or soon to be. What the superpowers have at their disposal now would make WW1 look like a teddy bear’s picnic. And yes, the nations will battle Christ and his angels at Armageddon……but we already know who prevails.
No sorry….this is a different covenant altogether…one inaugurated by Jesus at the Last Supper….and made exclusively with his disciples. Not a covenant just for Jews, but for people of all nations to gain an approved standing with God. This “new covenant” was foretold by Jeremiah. (Jer 31:33) Not one written on parchment, but on hearts.
Only a chosen “few” (144,000) by comparison with millions of those who survive the great tribulation, and those who will be resurrected to live on earth.
God’s first purpose to have his earth filled with obedient humankind who would act as caretakers for all that God had created here, will yet be fulfilled. (Isa 55:11)
Going to heaven was never part of that original purpose.
God knew that only those who had lived in sinful flesh would understand and be compassionate rulers and priests for those who had this condition thrust upon them through no fault on their part.
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Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
Is this a trick question? The verse literally says he went into heaven:
2Kings 2:11
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
The only honest answer is... I don't know.
I don't believe in a "spiritual realm" as Auntie calls it. The heavens are the heavens... they exist in this plane of reality. One only needs to look up to see them. Whatever happened there, I believe it happened FOR REAL.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Did you read post #14? The explanation given was from the Bible and from Strongs Concordance….
The “heaven” mentioned in 2 Kings 2:11 is not “heaven” where God is, (Matt 6:9) but the “heavens” where birds fly….the “heavens” are also where the planets and stars are located that we see in the night sky….
Elijah did not go to heaven, he was simply taken away by God to a new assignment….whisked away into the sky in a spectacular display…but he did not die.
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TrevorHL
Member
Greetings again Aunty Jane,
Yes, I consider the dates in the Book of Daniel are important, and I consider that they are like Milestones, indicating progress towards the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon the earth. I consider that the period 1914-1917 covering the First World War is significant, partly because the outcome in 1917 was that the Ottoman Turk was pushed out of the Holy Land in fulfillment of Daniel 11:40 and Revelation 16:12, the drying up of the Ottoman Euphrates Power, and this outcome enabled a greater return of the Jews to the Holy Land. This was an event necessary to pave the way for other prophecies relating to the coming Time of Trouble and the future Battle of Armageddon and the establishment of the Kingdom of God centred in Jerusalem Isaiah 2:1-4. I am not sure as to what is the "official" JW view of other dates in Daniel, such as the 2300 evening/mornings of Daniel 8 and the three time periods in Daniel 12. I consider that the 2300 represents the time from BC 334-333 to AD 1967 when the Jews retook Jerusalem, another important step towards the establishment of the kingdom of God centred in Jerusalem.
Galatians 3:14–29 (KJV): 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Kind regards
Trevor
How was your Sunday here in NSW? I have been to our Memorial Meeting this morning where we have worship, prayer, hymns, exhortation and partaking of the weekly bread and wine in memory of the death and resurrection of Jesus. We also have a warm fellowship of like minded brothers and sisters and after the meeting I discussed with a number of these some different Scriptural matters. Our Sunday schedule is Sunday School at 9 AM, then Memorial Meeting at 11 AM, and then an Evening Public Witness at 6 PM with interested friends invited to attend and others are able to watch online in response to our advertising.
Yes, I consider the dates in the Book of Daniel are important, and I consider that they are like Milestones, indicating progress towards the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon the earth. I consider that the period 1914-1917 covering the First World War is significant, partly because the outcome in 1917 was that the Ottoman Turk was pushed out of the Holy Land in fulfillment of Daniel 11:40 and Revelation 16:12, the drying up of the Ottoman Euphrates Power, and this outcome enabled a greater return of the Jews to the Holy Land. This was an event necessary to pave the way for other prophecies relating to the coming Time of Trouble and the future Battle of Armageddon and the establishment of the Kingdom of God centred in Jerusalem Isaiah 2:1-4. I am not sure as to what is the "official" JW view of other dates in Daniel, such as the 2300 evening/mornings of Daniel 8 and the three time periods in Daniel 12. I consider that the 2300 represents the time from BC 334-333 to AD 1967 when the Jews retook Jerusalem, another important step towards the establishment of the kingdom of God centred in Jerusalem.
I do not recall ever reading a JW explanation of the Battle of Armageddon and what it really entails. Perhaps you could give a brief summary. As well as Revelation 16:12-16, possibly you could answer who is the King from the North in Ezekiel 38, and who is the King of the North mentioned in Daniel 11:40-45. My JW friend derided my view of Ezekiel 38, but did not answer as to who would be the King of the North in the time of the end.
I am not sure as to how you understand the following:
Galatians 3:14–29 (KJV): 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Kind regards
Trevor
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
I did read it. I didn't agree with it... but I did read it.
If you looked up shamayim (heavens) in Strong's, you should know that it's the same word, whether talking about the earth's atmosphere, or space, or 'God's abode' as some like to say. There is no other word for any particular heaven.
There are some books that enumerate different heavens - usually 3, 7, or 10. But you can't nail down 2Kings 2:11 as being any particular heaven... that's not in the verse. The text is ambiguous in this respect, and nobody should try to force it to mean one thing or the other to the exlcusion of the others.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
Most arguments from Ecclesiastes don't work (including this one), because Solomon's main idea in that book is that human wisdom fails.
In support of this main idea, he gives many statements which are EXAMPLES of human wisdom. That is - they fail. In this chapter, I would point you to the verses immediately following:
11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. 12 For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them. 13 This wisdom have I seen also under the sun, and it seemed great unto me:
How many of these statements are simply false? The race IS to the swift, and the battle IS to the strong... and while it is fine to recognize that time erodes that swiftness and strength, Solomon's main point remains that this "wisdom" is ultimately not worth a pile of beans. Events remain in God's hands.
Solomon is saying, "here are some ideas that seem good but come to nothing."
We tend to come behind him and say, "here are some ideas that seem good" but forget that they all come to nothing.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
G’day Trevor….hope you have had an enjoyable day too….nice that we are in the same timezone and the same state. I am in southern NSW……what about you?
Does your brotherhood have a name that identifies it from other churches? It’s a sad fact that humans always seem to want to ‘divide and conquer‘ for some reason…..there was only one “Christianity” in the beginning…but now there are literally thousands of sects, all claiming to teach the truth….there are not thousands of versions of the truth, however.…there can only be one. It’s up to us to find the diamond in a pile of broken glass….God will help us, if we let him.
My “Sunday” (not the Sabbath) began with our weekly meeting in which we had a visiting brother from another congregation to give us a very lively talk about the Bible’s place in science…..I love it when science and the Bible agree….something that I find true more often than not. It’s science ‘fiction’ that disagrees with the Bible…..like evolution. Yet even in the proven facts of adaptation, we can see the ability in living things to adapt to their environment. Adaptation is not organic evolution however, because the species (kind) itself does not change, but alters in small ways to adapt to a change in their diet or environment. Science took that way over the top to suggest that we all evolved from the primordial soup….utter nonsense.
We have different topics discussed every week so no boring sermons like I used to sit through in church.
We have no “Sunday School” as I did as a child growing up in the Anglican church because we have our children learning with us. We don’t segregate them. We have videos for the kids as part of family worship at home. It’s important that parents be the teachers of their own children. We train to be teachers and they are our most important students.
We also have two weekly meetings to train for the ministry (a service to God in which we all participate) and a Bible study discussing topics of interest in one of our publications. Nearly all our meetings are interactive as we share research on the study material.
We also have zoom meetings for those who are elderly or infirm and cannot make it to the Kingdom Hall.
Zoom was he way we kept to our regular schedule of meetings and Bible study during the pandemic.
We celebrate our memorial of Christ’s death annually as it replaced the Passover, which was also observed annually. Only the elect partake of the bread and wine since these alone are parties to “the new covenant” inaugurated by Jesus at the Last Supper. Those who are not parties to the covenant are beneficiaries of it.
We see no distinction between those who are called to heaven and those who will serve God on earth…both are important roles…..where we serve doesn’t really matter, as it is God who chooses where we will end up, and what part we will play in his service.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
We have studied the book of Daniel quite deeply and it’s fascinating how the prophesies coincide with the times we are experiencing now. The march of world powers who held dominion over God’s people down through time, beginning with Babylon and ending with the current rulers of our day.
Daniel’s prophesies do not go further than our time. Now is “the time of the end”….the time for God’s Kingdom to “come”, and his will “to be done on earth as it is in heaven”……I prayed that prayer at church every week without ever knowing what I was praying for….
Understanding that prayer was a game changer for me.
The Battle of Armageddon is the culmination of these end times when the forces of good and evil clash for the last time….we already know who wins.
The Greek “Har Ma·ge·donʹ”, taken from Hebrew and rendered “Armageddon” by many translators, means “Mountain of Megiddo,” or “Mountain of Assembly of Troops.” The Bible associates the name, not with a nuclear holocaust, (as some suspect) but with the coming universal “war of the great day of God the Almighty.” (Rev. 16:14, 16) This name is applied specifically to “the place [Greek, toʹpon; that is, condition or situation]” to which earth’s political rulers are being gathered in opposition to Jehovah and his Kingdom by Jesus Christ. Such opposition will be shown by global action against Jehovah’s servants on earth. Jesus counts whatever is done to his disciples is done to himself.
Here is a link to a study article we did a while back….
King of the North and King of the south in the Time of the End.
The covenant made with Abraham is one of many. After passing a very difficult test of his faith, God said to Abraham…..
”By myself I swear,’ declares Jehovah, ‘that because you have done this and you have not withheld your son, your only one, 17 I will surely bless you and I will surely multiply your offspring like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand on the seashore, and your offspring will take possession of the gate of his enemies. 18 And by means of your offspring all nations of the earth will obtain a blessing for themselves because you have listened to my voice.’” (Genesis 22: 16-18)
Forgive me but I cannot stand the language of the old KJV….I find it outdated and frustrating, so I will convert all KJV quotes to modern English.
The Abrahamic covenant is not “the new covenant”, which was made “for a kingdom”….
The promise made to Abraham was not to benefit only Israel but to people of “ALL THE NATIONS” who put faith in Jesus Christ. Christianity was once a Middle Eastern religion, as was Judaism….but with the conversion of the first gentile, Cornelius, the way was open for God’s promise to Abraham to be fulfilled in “all nations”…..and the gospel spread out into the whole world.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
There is no need to force anything when the Bible answers that question for us….no one went to heaven before Jesus (John 3:13)…..there it is. So because Elijah was still acting as a prophet to King Jehoram of Judah years later, it is clear that he was still on earth, still serving his God in the capacity for which he was taken to his new location.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Where did Solomon get his wisdom? What he wrote was not his wisdom, but God’s….right?
“And God gave Solʹo·mon wisdom and discernment in very great measure and a broadness of heart like the sand on the seashore. 30 Solʹo·mon’s wisdom surpassed the wisdom of all the people of the East and all the wisdom of Egypt. 31 He was wiser than any other man, wiser than Eʹthan the Ezʹra·hite and Heʹman, Calʹcol, and Darʹda, the sons of Maʹhol; his fame spread among all the surrounding nations. 32 He composed* 3,000 proverbs and his songs numbered 1,005. 33 He would speak about the trees, from the cedar in Lebʹa·non to the hyssop that grows on the wall; he would speak about the animals, the birds, the creeping things and the fish. 34 People from all the nations came to hear Solʹo·mon’s wisdom, including kings from all over the earth who had heard about his wisdom.” (1 Kings 4:29-34)
As 2 Timothy 3:16-17 so rightly put it…”ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired of God and beneficial…”….
What Solomon wrote is absolutely 100% God’s truth. When God is in opposition to man and his plans and ideas, then all that Solomon wrote about those things is true. Man places trust in his wealth and power, but ultimately their evil plans backfire on them and they end up as dead as anyone else…..their schemes are futile.
Perhaps you need to adjust the lenses through which you are reading God’s word.
And that was his message…..God’s message, that no plans of men will ever come to anything of value if they are in opposition to God’s.
Solomon also wrote in Proverbs 14:12….
“There is a way that seems right to a man,
But in the end it leads to death.”
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TrevorHL
Member
Greetings again Aunty Jane,
Kind regards
Trevor
I am in the Lake Macquarie/Newcastle region. I moved from Sydney over 40 years ago. I live near the Lake, and in a small acreage portion of the suburbs.
I am a Christadelphian, and this became a fellowship from about 1843. It initially grew in the US and also in Great Britain. I accept their understanding of the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Name Acts 8:5-6,12.
I appreciate the information about your weekly schedule. Perhaps there is much more emphasis on preaching by comparison to our meetings that concentrate on the spiritual growth of our members and also our children in Sunday School.
The article does identify Russia as the King of the North and we agree here. Where I differ is that I consider that the invasion of the Holy Land is literal, not a parable concerning the antagonism between Russia and the JWs. I consider that this will be the Battle of Armageddon and God's faithful will not be the target of this invasion, but it will be Russia's bid for world power. I also consider that the Battle of Armageddon will be the first of many literal conflicts. The defeat of Russia by the intervention of Christ will only be a first major step in the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon the earth with Jesus reigning in the Temple Throne of David in literal Jerusalem.
I consider that the covenant made to Abraham is the one and only Covenant which is confirmed by the sacrifice, the death and resurrection of Jesus.
Kind regards
Trevor
From the OP:
Acts 16:9, "And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us." This also is something that was to happen in the future.
Acts 18:9-10, "Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace: For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city." Jesus is telling Paul that, in the near future, no man shall hurt him.
Visions should not be interpreted as literal. For example, look at Genesis 37:5-10. When Joseph dreamed that his "sheaf arose, and stood upright," and his brother’s sheaves bowed down to Joseph’s sheaf (verse 7), or when Joseph dreamed that "the sun and the moon and the eleven stars" bowed down to Joseph (verse 9); is this literal? No. This was a prophetic vision of something that was to occur in the future; when Joseph’s mother, father, and brothers would bow down to him as King.
Both Moses and Elijah were still in their graves, but in vision both they and Jesus were seen in glory of the resurrection, and event to which Moses and Elijah have not yet attained at that time (Hebrews 11:39). The vision was granted the disciples after Jesus had spoken of the glory of immortality in the coming Kingdom.
The following relates to the appearances of Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus (Matthew 17:1-9, Mark 9:2-10, Luke 9:28-36). After the Transfiguration, Jesus said, while leaving the mountain, "Tell the vision to no man" (Matthew 17:9). Jesus calls the transfiguration a vision! A vision is not a material reality, but a supernatural picture observed by the eyes. The same Greek word for "vision" was used of Peter's vision of the unclean beasts being made clean (Acts 10:3, 17, 19; 11:5). They were not real but a supernatural picture. In the case of the transfiguration, it was a prophetic vision which would take place in the future. Peter, James and John saw the Son of Man glorified in the Kingdom through a prophetic vision. Here are other examples:
Acts 16:9, "And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us." This also is something that was to happen in the future.
Acts 18:9-10, "Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace: For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city." Jesus is telling Paul that, in the near future, no man shall hurt him.
Visions should not be interpreted as literal. For example, look at Genesis 37:5-10. When Joseph dreamed that his "sheaf arose, and stood upright," and his brother’s sheaves bowed down to Joseph’s sheaf (verse 7), or when Joseph dreamed that "the sun and the moon and the eleven stars" bowed down to Joseph (verse 9); is this literal? No. This was a prophetic vision of something that was to occur in the future; when Joseph’s mother, father, and brothers would bow down to him as King.
Both Moses and Elijah were still in their graves, but in vision both they and Jesus were seen in glory of the resurrection, and event to which Moses and Elijah have not yet attained at that time (Hebrews 11:39). The vision was granted the disciples after Jesus had spoken of the glory of immortality in the coming Kingdom.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
It is God's prerogative when to resurrect the dead or translate the living. They are resurrected because they are dead; they are translated because God chooses that they don't see the death (sleep) which is endemic to humanity.
Moses was resurrected even though it doesn't specifically say so however the fact that he was seen with Elijah (who was translated) reveals something interesting; Moses representing those of God's people who have died throughout history and are resurrected at the last trump and Elijah, those translated and changed at the same event as described in 1 Corinthians 15: 51-55 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
These two as well as Enoch and who knows how many others ( no doubt those who came out of the graves at Jesus' resurrection, Matthew 27:51-53) were also taken to heaven (an early exception to the general resurrection) which as mentioned at the outset, is God's prerogative.
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