Was the Transfiguration a vision, or an actual appearance of Moses and Elijah?

[Aunty Jane]

I appreciate the information about your weekly schedule. Perhaps there is much more emphasis on preaching by comparison to our meetings that concentrate on the spiritual growth of our members and also our children in Sunday School.

The preaching work was assigned by Jesus himself who said he would be “with” his disciples in that all important work, right to “the end”. It was not a recommendation….it was a command. (Matt 28:19-20; 24:14)

Rom 10:14-15….
”However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!”

You notice that these preachers are “sent out”…not by men but by Christ himself (Matt 10:11-14)…..so those who do not, or cannot, fulfill this important assignment, do not have Christ’s backing…..it is a work accomplished only by the power of God‘s spirit…the motivating force that compels them to undertake this work out of obedience to their Master, Christ. They are just ordinary people carrying out a very difficult and unpopular work. (John 15:18-21)

The children also participate in this work because they too are disciples of Christ and because they are taught by example at home, and at our meetings, what it means to BE a “Christian” (rather than simply calling yourself one and concentrating on saving yourself)….they want to help people to learn how to save themselves in the coming showdown, where “sheep and goats” will be clearly identified and rewarded accordingly. There are no second chances.

The article does identify Russia as the King of the North and we agree here. Where I differ is that I consider that the invasion of the Holy Land is literal, not a parable concerning the antagonism between Russia and the JWs. I consider that this will be the Battle of Armageddon and God's faithful will not be the target of this invasion, but it will be Russia's bid for world power. I also consider that the Battle of Armageddon will be the first of many literal conflicts. The defeat of Russia by the intervention of Christ will only be a first major step in the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon the earth with Jesus reigning in the Temple Throne of David in literal Jerusalem.

The conflict between the king of the North and the king of the South has been waged since “the last days” began.….but the roles remain the same no matter what nation is fulfilling them. In the time of the end when we see the destructive capability of both sides, we can understand why God must intervene soon…otherwise those power hungry human leaders will lead us into a war that no one will win. God has already foretold his victory over all of them.

We do not see “the Holy Land” as holy at all. It is a place of violence and bloodshed, fought over by three “Abrahamic” faiths who hate one another and will kill those in opposition to them.

If you look back in Jewish history, you will see that Daniel’s prophesies confirm what the Scriptures say. Beginning with Babylon, the march of world powers he predicted, have subjugated God’s people in their own land ever since. The Jews dispersed after their release from Babylonian captivity and failed to return home….only a “remnant“ did as it was prophesied. It ceased being holy when Israel broke their covenant made with God at Mt Sinai…..this covenant was conditional as are all of God’s covenants. There are terms that would invalidate the covenant and break it, if the conditions are not met. (Isa 10:22-23)….but God never broke his promise.

Israel broke their covenant by their disobedience, and it was foretold that only an obedient remnant of that nation would be saved. Paul confirmed it. (Rom 9:27-29; Rom 11:4-5)

There is no “holy land” anymore….and the Jewish nation has long been abandoned by God because of their conduct (Matt 23:37-39)….he chose a new nation of spiritual “Israelites”…..ones Paul called “the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16)….these were the Jewish and gentile disciples of his son, who would now reap the rewards of their obedience to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

I consider that the covenant made to Abraham is the one and only Covenant which is confirmed by the sacrifice, the death and resurrection of Jesus.

That is such a stunted view…..there were many covenants that God made with his people.
The Abrahamic covenant was fulfilled despite the disobedient conduct of Abraham’s descendants. (1 Pet 2:4-5; 7-10)
The Law covenant was in force only until the sacrifice of Jesus fulfilled it. (Heb 9:19-20) We are no longer under Israel’s Laws.
The rainbow covenant promised that God would never again flood the world. (Gen 9:12-16)
The Davidic covenant ensured that a descendant of David would sit on Jehovah’s throne and rule his people. (2 Sam 7:16)

The ‘spiritual Israelites’ were now under the law of love…not by laws written on parchment, but by laws instilled in their hearts with love as their motivation. (Rom 2:28-29)

 

[St. SteVen]

Most arguments from Ecclesiastes don't work (including this one), because Solomon's main idea in that book is that human wisdom fails.

Agree.
The other reason is that he is writing about everything that happens under the sun.
So it doesn't work as a text to explain what happens after death in the afterlife.
It only applies to dead people (corpses) on earth. The dead know nothing. - LOL

[

 

[doctrox]

Moses was resurrected even though it doesn't specifically say so however the fact that he was seen with Elijah (who was translated) reveals something interesting; Moses representing those of God's people who have died throughout history and are resurrected at the last trump and Elijah, those translated and changed at the same event as described in 1 Corinthians 15: 51-55 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

These two as well as Enoch and who knows how many others ( no doubt those who came out of the graves at Jesus' resurrection, Matthew 27:51-53) were also taken to heaven (an early exception to the general resurrection) which as mentioned at the outset, is God's prerogative.

What saith Scripture?

Some people believe that Enoch did not die but was taken directly to heaven where God is. But, Enoch eventually died, as all humans die. How can we know? The apostle Paul mentioned the circumstances associated with Enoch in Hebrews 11:5, along with other men of faith, and then stated: "These all died in faith, not having received the promises" (Hebrews 11:13). Yes, Enoch died, and he did not receive the promise of heaven (verse 16) at the time the book of Hebrews was written.

Based on Hebrews 11:5, 13 and Jesus’ statement in John.3:13, "no man hath ascended up to heaven", how are we to understand the account of Enoch? Genesis 5:21-24 says that Enoch's days, alive on Earth, ended at 365 years old. The question is, did he die, was he taken to heaven alive, or was he transported to another location on Earth?

Let us examine the bold phrase in Genesis 5:24, where it says, "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him" and compare the same Hebrew phrase in:

Psalms 37:36, "Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found."

Psalms 39:13, "O spare me, that I may recover strength, before I go hence, and be no more."

The Hebrew for the phrases in bold are the same Hebrew as Genesis 5:24. As in the Psalms, the phrase means the person "passed away" or would eventually die. Let’s look at the same phrase in the book of Genesis:

Genesis 42:13, "And they said, Thy servants are twelve brethren, the sons of one man in the land of Canaan; and, behold, the youngest is this day with our father, and one is not." This was spoken by his brothers of Joseph. What’d they mean by "is not"?

Genesis 44:20, "And we said unto my lord, We have a father, an old man, and a child of his old age, a little one; and his brother is dead, and he alone is left of his mother, and his father loveth him." Here, the brothers recount their previous discussion about Joseph with Pharaoh. When they first said, "and one is not," they meant Joseph "is dead."

Matthew 2:18, "In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not." Where were Rachel's children? Dead.

Hebrews 11:5, "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him:" Does the phrase that says Enoch "should not see death" mean Enoch never died? Hebrews 11:13, "These all died [including Enoch] in faith." But not only that, verse 13 goes on to say that they did not receive the promises. One of the promises was a heavenly country (verse 16). If Enoch were in heaven, wouldn't he have received that promise?

Psalms 89:48, "What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah." Why would this Psalmist ask such a question concerning physical death if he believed Enoch did not see a physical death? The fact is, the Psalmist believed Enoch was in the grave and therefore asked this question.

So what does the phrase "should not see death" mean? Notice it is not in the present tense, that he "did not see" death, but that he "should not see death." John 8:51, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death" [see also John 11:26]. This phrase must mean "the second death," since all the Apostles kept Jesus’ sayings and yet died the first death.

Based on Hebrews 9:27, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" and Hebrews 11:13, "These all died in faith, not having received the promises," we must conclude that Enoch died the first death. To believe Enoch did not die is to deny the plain word of many other scriptures as well. For example, Romans 5:12; "...so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" and Romans 5:14, "...death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned." Are we to believe that Enoch did not sin? Are we to believe that a man who was not yet cleansed of sin by the blood of Jesus could enter heaven and dwell in God's presence?

But what about his translation in Hebrews 11:5? Does that mean he didn’t die? That’s what most people carelessly assume without proof. The Bible does not say that Enoch went to heaven when he was translated. Instead, it says he "was not found." According to Strong's, Thayer's and Bullinger's Greek Lexicons, "translate" means "to put or place in another place, to transport, to transfer." Nowhere in the Scripture does ‘translate’ mean to make immortal!

The same Greek word is rendered "carried over" in Acts 7:16 where Jacob's body was ‘translated’ or ‘transported’ to Sychem, where he was buried! The Scriptures say Jacob was translated to the place of burial! God took Enoch and buried him somewhere so as not to be found, just as he did with the body of Moses in Deuteronomy 34:6. No man knows where Moses' or Enoch’s grave is. God hid them for reasons known only to Him.

...continued...

 

[doctrox]

Notice another proof that ‘translate’ does not mean to make immortal. Paul wrote that the Father "hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son" (Colossians 1:13). The apostle Paul says that he was already translated, even though he was still physically alive! Although he was once part of the darkness of this world, he was translated, removed from darkness, into the light of the kingdom of God while he was physically alive!

At the age of 65, Enoch had a son named Methuselah. But how long did Enoch walk with God?

Genesis 5:22, "And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters."

So, Enoch followed God’s ways for three hundred years. Notice that the Scripture does not record that Enoch is still walking with God. It says that Enoch WALKED with God for three hundred years, and not one year more. Why? Because "all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years" (Genesis 5:23). Paul says, in Colossians 1:10, "That ye might walk worthy of the Lord." Enoch walked with God and pleased God. This is what Genesis 5:22, 24 means when it says "Enoch walked with God."

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 says that all die and all shall be resurrected, but Messiah must be first in the order. Enoch could not possibly have preceded him, especially if he were still flesh and blood as it says in verses 49-52.

 

[Wick Stick]

Where did Solomon get his wisdom? What he wrote was not his wisdom, but God’s….right?

Wrong.

God granted Solomon wisdom, but it was still the wisdom of men. He did not act with the Mind of God Himself... if he had, he wouldn't have had 700 concubines, taxed Israel into poverty to such an extent that it ignited civil war after his death, or continued the worship of foreign gods at the high places. The Bible reckons Solomon among the bad kings; not the good ones.

Anyhow, the whole thesis of the book of Ecclesiastes is that ALL the strivings of men, including wisdom... ESPECIALLY the wisdom of the author... come to naught. Man is impermanent... man's deeds are impermanent... the only chance for anything lasting is to act within God's plan, because God is everlasting.

https://www.sparknotes.com/lit/oldtestament/section12/

As 2 Timothy 3:16-17 so rightly put it…”ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired of God and beneficial…”….

What Solomon wrote is absolutely 100% God’s truth.

In context, Solomon is saying... A, B, & C seem smart, but they're flawed.

If you come afterwards and say, "look the Bible says A!" then you've made a mistake. You haven't proclaimed the same message as Ecclesiastes.

Perhaps you need to adjust the lenses through which you are reading God’s word.

I think you might need that adjustment... you're pulling things out of context and it's causing verses to mean basically the opposite of what was intended by the author.

Solomon also wrote in Proverbs 14:12….
“There is a way that seems right to a man,
But in the end it leads to death.”

YES! That's the message! Ecclesiastes is an enumeration of "ways that seem right to a man." Solomon poo-poos the whole lot of them at the end of the book!

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Aunty Jane,

The preaching work was assigned by Jesus himself who said he would be “with” his disciples in that all important work, right to “the end”. It was not a recommendation….it was a command. (Matt 28:19-20; 24:14)

I was speaking about emphasis and balance, Each one of our meetings are autonomous. We do not answer to a central authority. My opinion is that my particular meeting has the correct balance between spiritual growth of our members and children and our preaching activities.

The children also participate in this work

Yes, I consider this JW practice lacks balance.

The conflict between the king of the North and the king of the South has been waged since “the last days” began.….

I consider the the King of the South mentioned in Daniel 11:40 refers to the events of 1917. This was when the British occupied Egypt and pushed the Ottoman Turk out of the Holy Land in 1917. There has been no "King of the South" since the withdrawal of Britain from Egypt in the 1930's.

That is such a stunted view…..there were many covenants that God made with his people.

I believe that it is the Edenic promise and the Abrahamic Covenant expanded with the promises to David comprises the New Covenant, and this is confirmed with the sufferings, death and resurrection of Christ.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[quietthinker]

Notice another proof that ‘translate’ does not mean to make immortal. Paul wrote that the Father "hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son" (Colossians 1:13). The apostle Paul says that he was already translated, even though he was still physically alive! Although he was once part of the darkness of this world, he was translated, removed from darkness, into the light of the kingdom of God while he was physically alive!

At the age of 65, Enoch had a son named Methuselah. But how long did Enoch walk with God?

Genesis 5:22, "And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters."

So, Enoch followed God’s ways for three hundred years. Notice that the Scripture does not record that Enoch is still walking with God. It says that Enoch WALKED with God for three hundred years, and not one year more. Why? Because "all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years" (Genesis 5:23). Paul says, in Colossians 1:10, "That ye might walk worthy of the Lord." Enoch walked with God and pleased God. This is what Genesis 5:22, 24 means when it says "Enoch walked with God."

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 says that all die and all shall be resurrected, but Messiah must be first in the order. Enoch could not possibly have preceded him, especially if he were still flesh and blood as it says in verses 49-52.

hmmmm, you make a lot of words and texts here yet why am I not finding them persuasive? ...because the intent of various texts have been cobbled poorly.

 

[Aunty Jane]

What saith Scripture?

Indeed…..but it doesn’t seem to matter what Scripture says…..they will read it the way they want it to confirm their own ideas. I personally see what is plainly stated and what agrees with the rest of Scripture.

”Heaven“ is where God resides as Jesus stated in the Lord’s Prayer. If heaven is also where the birds fly, and where the planets and stars are located…..so, where are we to assume that God and the angels reside? The word clearly has more than one meaning.

The same Greek word is rendered "carried over" in Acts 7:16 where Jacob's body was ‘translated’ or ‘transported’ to Sychem, where he was buried! The Scriptures say Jacob was translated to the place of burial! God took Enoch and buried him somewhere so as not to be found, just as he did with the body of Moses in Deuteronomy 34:6. No man knows where Moses' or Enoch’s grave is. God hid them for reasons known only to Him.

Enoch is another good example of one who was probably going to die a horrible death at the hands of his enemies….God saved him from that fate by peacefully ending his life with the promise of a resurrection.
As you said…like Moses, God disposed of his body so that no one would find it.

Elijah didn’t go to heaven but was transported to another location where he served as a prophet to King Jehoram of Judah. Some years later he wrote a letter to that king….it wasn’t “heaven sent”….
The Bible answers these questions if we have an open mind and heart.

 

[TheHC]

I seem to stand alone in my position that it probably wasn't a vision.
Even though some of our Bible translations use the word in the passage.
The controversy seems to surround whether we can speak to the dead.
Most say, "No." therefore it had to be a vision.
Jesus was with the disciples for 40 days after his resurrection. Dead or alive? (or both) ???

But I see some evidence that indicates to me that it wasn't a vision.
- The immersive quality of the experience is more dreamlike than a vision.
- The text says that Moses and Elijah appeared and began talking with Jesus.
- Peter offered to build three shelters.
- The disciples fell on their faces in terror when they were surrounded by a cloud and heard God that Father speaking loudly.
- The disciples asked whether this was the appearance of Elijah that was prophesied.

Matthew 17:1-13

Mark 9:1-13

Luke 9:28-36

What are your thoughts?

[

My thoughts? Why would I want to disagree with Jesus’ description of it?

Do the other two gospel accounts, Luke 9 & Mark 9, record Jesus saying something else?
No.

So why not accept Jesus’ words at Matthew 17:9 for what they are -truth?

Besides, saying it was a vision, doesn’t contradict any other Scripture.

But if Jesus had said Elijah & Moses were real, that would contradict what Scripture says about the dead: Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalm 115:17, etc.

 

[TheHC]

Indeed…..but it doesn’t seem to matter what Scripture says…..they will read it the way they want it to confirm their own ideas.

And when they do that, ie., read / understand it their own way, it will invariably contradict other Scripture.

In doing that, in a sense they “make the Word of God invalid.” — Mark 7:13; Matthew 15:6

This is one reason why atheism is on the rise….
Such interpretations turn the Bible into a book that appears to contradict itself.
And in the minds of many, the thousands of different interpretations (matching the thousands of differing sects of Christendom), presents the Bible as an impenetrable mystery!

All by design of the Master Deceiver. (2 Corinthians 11:14,15)
He’s got this world tied up! (To use an expression.)

For this reason, I don’t think Jehovah is going to hold it against too many, at least against those who have been heavily, but unwittingly, influenced. This has been going on for thousands of years.

Many currently alive will die during the GT, but will be resurrected.

I don’t see Jehovah‘s justice & love unfolding any other way.

What do you think?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Greetings again Aunty Jane,

I was speaking about emphasis and balance, Each one of our meetings are autonomous. We do not answer to a central authority.

But Scripture tells us that God‘s people always answered to a central authority….For Israel, it was Moses.
For Christians, it was initially Jesus, who had his authority from his Father, but after his death it was the apostles who formed what was essentially a governing body in Jerusalem No one was left to make up their own beliefs……

For Jews, God had made his wishes and requirements clear through the mediatorship of Moses. All were under obligation to keep God’s commands, sometimes under the penalty of death…..but for those in the Christian Era, the teachings of Jesus were laid out for the people on a “take it or leave it“ basis….no one was forced to accept the teachings of Jesus Christ…but they could not become “Christians” unless they did.
Without a central governing body, there can be no unity as Paul stated. (1 Cor 1:10)
Those who wanted to bring in their own ideas were shown the door. (2 John 9-11; 1 Cor 5:12-13)

My opinion is that my particular meeting has the correct balance between spiritual growth of our members and children and our preaching activities.

So do ours, but emphasis is on the spiritual welfare of others, not just our own salvation. Preaching the “good news” in these difficult last days, has given many a new hope for something better to come for this world. (Rev 21:2-4)

Yes, I consider this JW practice lacks balance.

What is unbalanced about that…it was a requirement for God’s ancient people who were told….

”when all Israel appears before the presence of Jehovah your God in the place that he chooses, you should read this Law for all Israel to hear it. 12 Gather the people together, the men, the women, the children, and your foreign resident who is within your cities, in order that they may listen and learn about and fear Jehovah your God and take care to carry out all the words of this Law. ” (Deut 31:11-12)

Was God being unbalanced in his request for all the families to attend Bible instruction together. …..including their children?

It is our responsibility to teach and train our children in the ways of Jehovah, just as his son was trained by his earthly parents. The whole family went to Jerusalem for their festivals so that the children were participating in those occasions too.

I consider the the King of the South mentioned in Daniel 11:40 refers to the events of 1917. This was when the British occupied Egypt and pushed the Ottoman Turk out of the Holy Land in 1917. There has been no "King of the South" since the withdrawal of Britain from Egypt in the 1930's.

You are free to interpret these things as you wish…it doesn’t make them true.
The two opposing blocks of nations are clearly identified by their conduct, engaged in a shoving match with each other like petulant children. Russia and her allies, against the USA and her allies…..It is this situation with alliances that drew all nations into the First World War.

Bible prophesy does not feature literal Israel at all in this “time of the end”…..It is spiritual Israel that is the target of satan and his minions in this time period. God has cleansed “a people for his name” (Acts 15:14) from the nations, to join the remnant of literal Jews, who form the very foundations of God’s Kingdom.

I believe that it is the Edenic promise and the Abrahamic Covenant expanded with the promises to David comprises the New Covenant, and this is confirmed with the sufferings, death and resurrection of Christ.

The new covenant is very different from the Abrahamic covenant, as the Law covenant was different from the rainbow covenant….each one was for a time and a purpose. The difference with the Abrahamic covenant was that the fulfillment was to be carried out for “ALL nations“ to come to Christ for salvation…..it has nothing to do with literal Israel or the land that God once gifted to them….it is so polluted with blood that, those who hold this piece of dirt as sacred to God now, are kidding themselves. (Isa 1:15)

Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well that no geographical location would be seen as holy once Christ had offered his life (John 4:19-24)…..the way was open for Jews first, then others from the gentile nations would join them, so that the Abrahamic covenant could be fulfilled…..with people of “all nations” gaining salvation and God’s blessing.

 

[Aunty Jane]

And when they do that, ie., read / understand it their own way, it will invariably contradict other Scripture.

In doing that, in a sense they “make the Word of God invalid.” — Mark 7:13; Matthew 15:6

This is one reason why atheism is on the rise….
Such interpretations turn the Bible into a book that appears to contradict itself.
And in the minds of many, the thousands of different interpretations (matching the thousands of differing sects of Christendom), presents the Bible as an impenetrable mystery!

All by design of the Master Deceiver. (2 Corinthians 11:14,15)
He’s got this world tied up! (To use an expression.)

For this reason, I don’t think Jehovah is going to hold it against too many, at least against those who have been heavily, but unwittingly, influenced. This has been going on for thousands of years.

Many currently alive will die during the GT, but will be resurrected.

I don’t see Jehovah‘s justice & love unfolding any other way.

What do you think?

I agree, only the stubborn and incorrigibly disobedient will meet Jehovah head on…..
Those who were thoroughly deceived may yet see the light as the incidents progress and Jehovah exposes the wickedness of this system of things to its greater depth…only Jehovah knows what is in a person’s heart.

2 Thess 1:6-10 gives us some light on what Jehovah requires for those who will be saved from “the fear inspiring day of his anger”….

“This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.”

I see there a distinction between those who “know God” (John 17:3) and those who don’t know him, and don’t want to….and I see those who claim to know about Jesus, and follow his teachings, but who find excuses not to do as he commanded.

Jesus will let us all know soon enough who have gained God’s favor and who have not.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Aunty Jane,

Without a central governing body, there can be no unity as Paul stated. (1 Cor 1:10)

1 Corinthians 1:10 (KJV): Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
The above is speaking about the various divisions that happened in the one meeting, the Corinthian "Ecclesia.".

In my region there are eight meetings and each have their own statement of faith, usually very similar to each other. This allows easy movement between each meeting and fellowship in some combined weekends. The "Arranging Brethren" are responsible for maintaining the standard, not some central authority. The same unity and ease of fellowship occurs throughout the world.

It is our responsibility to teach and train our children in the ways of Jehovah, just as his son was trained by his earthly parents. The whole family went to Jerusalem for their festivals so that the children were participating in those occasions too.

We have three levels of Sunday School notes and classes, Junior, Intermediate and Senior. The Notes cover the Bible in 5 years for each group, and the ages are from say 4 y.o - 19 y.o,

Bible prophesy does not feature literal Israel at all in this “time of the end”

This is where we differ.

The new covenant is very different from the Abrahamic covenant

We differ here also. I suggest we have aired our differences and time to move on. We are both off topic. I appreciate your time and effort.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[quietthinker]

I see there a distinction between those who “know God” (John 17:3) and those who don’t know him, and don’t want to….and I see those who claim to know about Jesus, and follow his teachings, but who find excuses not to do as he commanded.

I'm assuming your view of your understanding is that you know Jehovah. Perhaps you could tell us of him?

 

[Aunty Jane]

God granted Solomon wisdom, but it was still the wisdom of men. He did not act with the Mind of God Himself... if he had, he wouldn't have had 700 concubines, taxed Israel into poverty to such an extent that it ignited civil war after his death, or continued the worship of foreign gods at the high places. The Bible reckons Solomon among the bad kings; not the good ones.

According to 1 Kings 4:29-34….Solomon’s wisdom was God given.

“And God gave Solʹo·mon wisdom and discernment in very great measure and a broadness of heart like the sand on the seashore. 30 Solʹo·mon’s wisdom surpassed the wisdom of all the people of the East and all the wisdom of Egypt. 31 He was wiser than any other man, wiser than Eʹthan the Ezʹra·hite and Heʹman, Calʹcol, and Darʹda, the sons of Maʹhol; his fame spread among all the surrounding nations. 32 He composed 3,000 proverbs and his songs numbered 1,005. 33 He would speak about the trees, from the cedar in Lebʹa·non to the hyssop that grows on the wall; he would speak about the animals, the birds, the creeping things and the fish. 34 People from all the nations came to hear Solʹo·mon’s wisdom, including kings from all over the earth who had heard about his wisdom.” (1 Kings 4:29-34)

It is to be noted that Solomon’s wisdom was so profound that ”People from all the nations came to hear Solʹo·mon’s wisdom, including kings from all over the earth who had heard about his wisdom.”

And yet you say he spoke the wisdom of men? Seriously?

When he wrote his proverbs and words of wisdom, he was a faithful king, and ruled for 40 years….but in his old age he allowed the influence of his foreign wives (whom God had forbidden his people to marry) to lead him to compromise Jehovah’s worship….. it was then that God reprimanded him. (1 Kings 11:4)

Yet, God did not forget his years of faithful service….
Though Solomon had inclined his heart away from Jehovah, he “lay down with his forefathers, and was buried in the city of David his father.” (1 Kings 11:43)

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'm assuming your view of your understanding is that you know Jehovah. Perhaps you could tell us of him?

Yes…after more than 50 years of study, service and experience with my God, I can say in all honesty that I know him better today than I did 50 years ago. I have experienced his hand in my life more times than I can count….often in hindsight.

It is actually a salvation issue…to “know the only true God” as opposed to the multitude of gods that people in all nations worship, including the various interpretations of God in Christendom…so, we are left to ask….”will the real God please raise his hand?”….

And we also have to “know the one he sent” (John 17:3)…so if knowing these two, (not three) is what leads to everlasting life, then it’s something that requires a lot of study and meditation…..taking the entirety of Scripture to help us to answer the big questions. The Bible explains itself very often, but it’s individual interpretation that often fights with the truth.

There is only one truth and it’s in the power of our own heart to find it….that is, if God is also looking for us. No one can come to the son without an invitation from his Father…..(John 6:65) So unless there is a connection of ourselves with Yahweh/Jehovah….by mutual agreement, we will be left to our own delusions. (2 Thess 2:9-12) Unless we love the truth when we hear it…..we will never receive that invitation.

 

[St. SteVen]

My thoughts? Why would I want to disagree with Jesus’ description of it?

That's the question. What did Jesus say?

I think this is a question of Bible translation.

Matthew 17:9 NIV
As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them,
“Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”

Mark 9:9 NIV
As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus gave them orders not to tell anyone
what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead.

Luke 9:36 NIV
When the voice had spoken, they found that Jesus was alone.
The disciples kept this to themselves and did not tell anyone at that time what they had seen.


The NT Greek doesn't seem to support the word "vision" except in a vague sense.

Strong's Concordance
horaó: to see, perceive, attend to
Original Word: ὁράω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: horaó
Phonetic Spelling: (hor-ah'-o)
Definition: to see, perceive, attend to
Usage: I see, look upon, experience, perceive, discern, beware.

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[quietthinker]

Yes…after more than 50 years of study, service and experience with my God, I can say in all honesty that I know him better today than I did 50 years ago. I have experienced his hand in my life more times than I can count….often in hindsight.

It is actually a salvation issue…to “know the only true God” as opposed to the multitude of gods that people in all nations worship, including the various interpretations of God in Christendom…so, we are left to ask….”will the real God please raise his hand?”….

And we also have to “know the one he sent” (John 17:3)…so if knowing these two, (not three) is what leads to everlasting life, then it’s something that requires a lot of study and meditation…..taking the entirety of Scripture to help us to answer the big questions. The Bible explains itself very often, but it’s individual interpretation that often fights with the truth.

There is only one truth and it’s in the power of our own heart to find it….that is, if God is also looking for us. No one can come to the son without an invitation from his Father…..(John 6:65) So unless there is a connection of ourselves with Yahweh/Jehovah….by mutual agreement, we will be left to our own delusions. (2 Thess 2:9-12) Unless we love the truth when we hear it…..we will never receive that invitation.

Oh dear AJ....and I say this kindly, I have asked you to tell me of Jehovah but what you have done is tell me of yourself.
We talk about the things that capture our imagination....and self rules for both the religious and the non religious.

I have asked this same question to several JW's, not because I want to corner them but to flesh out the title they so proudly wear ie, being a witness to Jehovah.....and surprising or alarmingly they flourish along the same lines as yourself.

If I were in a court scene and the self confessed witness was called to the stand to witness yet they only spoke of themselves, gave advice or pontificate, the Judge would dismiss them as an unreliable witness.....and we the jury would justifiably agree.

 

[face2face]

I seem to stand alone in my position that it probably wasn't a vision.
Even though some of our Bible translations use the word in the passage.
The controversy seems to surround whether we can speak to the dead.
Most say, "No." therefore it had to be a vision.
Jesus was with the disciples for 40 days after his resurrection. Dead or alive? (or both) ???

But I see some evidence that indicates to me that it wasn't a vision.
- The immersive quality of the experience is more dreamlike than a vision.
- The text says that Moses and Elijah appeared and began talking with Jesus.
- Peter offered to build three shelters.
- The disciples fell on their faces in terror when they were surrounded by a cloud and heard God that Father speaking loudly.
- The disciples asked whether this was the appearance of Elijah that was prophesied.

Matthew 17:1-13

Mark 9:1-13

Luke 9:28-36

What are your thoughts?

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Agree...must be a first!

 

[face2face]

So the evidence is just not there that Elijah went to heaven before Jesus.

Only those taken into the new covenant have that privilege….and it is the apostles who form the foundation of God’s Kingdom in heaven. (Rev 21:14) It was with them that Jesus instituted that new covenant.
The ancients were content with receiving a future resurrection under the rule of that Kingdom (Heb 11:13) …..they will be resurrected to take up important roles in the earthly part of God’s Kingdom no doubt, having received God’s spirit and blessing during their lifetime of faithful service.

How can you get the first part of your answer so right only to follow with something so wrong?
you have no evidence whatsoever of new covenant believers go to heaven when the governance and Kingship is on earth.

As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. Dan 2:34

But what does he do Jane when he returns that is the question?

F2F