Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

[Kermos]

@Enoch111 @Taken @Renniks @GISMYS_7 @Backlit @Riverwalker @BARNEY BRIGHT @TLHKAJ @HisLife @Ronald Nolette @post @Wynona @Iconoclast @CharismaticLady @MatthewG @Abaxvahl @BeyondET @RLT63 @Rightglory @Bible_Patrol @Jim B @Johann @Gilligan @Behold @Pierac @n2thelight @Eternally Grateful @Titus

Free will: an autonomous will, an isolated willpower, detached volition, independent moral agency.

A will exists not in a vacuum; in other words, a will must be part of a host.

Respecting an unsaved person - the default first condition of every person, since a host person is required to host a will, then the person's will is part of the person's self, so the person's will is self-will because the person'a will is attached to the self-same person; on the other hand, the person's will is not free floating detached from the person, so the person's will is not free-will.

The Apostle proclaims a person's will is either one of but not both of:

1. a person's will is controlled by God with "God having purified your souls in the obedience of the Truth through the Spirit" (1 Peter 1:21-22) and "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
2. a person's will is controlled by man with "the Lord knows how" "to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

A person's will is dependent upon God (Christimage-will (bond-will), Romans 8:29), or a person's will is dependent upon man (self-will). No other will exists for a person; therefore, free-will is an illusion as conveyed by the Apostle Paul with "I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).

While the unrighteous unbelievers daringly revel in their own glory founded in their self-willed "I chose Jesus" (2 Peter 2:9-10), we righteousness of God in Christ believers worship the Glorious One (2 Corinthians 5:21) who sovereignly chose us (John 15:16, John 15:19).

Thus says Adonai YHWH (Lord GOD) "I am YHWH; that is my name; my glory I give to no other" (Isaiah 42:8), yet the free-willians try to steal God's exclusive glory in the salvation of man.

The original post contains the Truth which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Enoch111]

Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

So how did he CHOOSE to disobey without a free will? Do you seriously believe he was PROGRAMMED to disobey?

 

[Kermos]

No free-will is contained in any Scripture, so no Scripture is a proof text for no man having free will.

Christians are in awe of the works of God and poignantly the Word of God.

Christians do not adulterate the Word of God nor do Christians nullify the works of God.

You deceive yourself that your words are greater than Lord Jesus Christ's words again because the Word of God eliminates any and all potential for free-willian philosophy with:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15 , the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage), yet you adulterate the Word of God into "you did not choose Me, but I chose you[color]" (the word of Gilligan).
  [*]"I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God chooses people unto salvation, yet you adulterate the Word of God into "you chose me to get yourself out of the world and into the Kingdom of God" (the word of Gilligan) - compare your words to the Lord Jesus explaining that without the intervention of the Holy Spirit of Almighty God, you cannot even perceive the Kingdom of God righteously, much less King Jesus, with "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3).
  [*]"What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time, yet you adulterate the Word of God into "What I say to you I say to you and only you" (the word of Gilligan).
  

Christians are in awe of the works of God and the Word of God. I am in awe of the works of God and the Word of God.

Christians do not adulterate the Word of God. You adulterate the Word of God into some strange beast such that it is no longer the Word of God but truly the word of Gilligan Free-willian philosophy.

You add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Of the new Jerusalem, the Apostle John wrote "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27) - notice that no one who practices lying gets in, and a human adding to scripture is the human lying.

Your free will assertion is referring to man attempting to override God's thoughts with man's thoughts, and that is a grievous sin.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Gilligan]

Christians are in awe of the works of God and poignantly the Word of God.

Christians do not adulterate the Word of God nor do Christians nullify the works of God.

You deceive yourself that your words are greater than Lord Jesus Christ's words again because the Word of God eliminates any and all potential for free-willian philosophy with:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15 , the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage), yet you adulterate the Word of God into "you did not choose Me, but I chose you[color]" (the word of Gilligan).
  [*]"I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God chooses people unto salvation, yet you adulterate the Word of God into "you chose me to get yourself out of the world and into the Kingdom of God" (the word of Gilligan) - compare your words to the Lord Jesus explaining that without the intervention of the Holy Spirit of Almighty God, you cannot even perceive the Kingdom of God righteously, much less King Jesus, with "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3).
  [*]"What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time, yet you adulterate the Word of God into "What I say to you I say to you and only you" (the word of Gilligan).

Christians are in awe of the works of God and the Word of God. I am in awe of the works of God and the Word of God.

Christians do not adulterate the Word of God. You adulterate the Word of God into some strange beast such that it is no longer the Word of God but truly the word of Gilligan Free-willian philosophy.

You add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Of the new Jerusalem, the Apostle John wrote "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27) - notice that no one who practices lying gets in, and a human adding to scripture is the human lying.

Your free will assertion is referring to man attempting to override God's thoughts with man's thoughts, and that is a grievous sin.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

So then. We're at an end. Nothing new here but repeated mantra and accusation.

And the first main point made is never acknowledged, much less addressed:

If an argument can be made for man having no free will, because no Scripture says we have free will. Then the equal and opposite argument can be made for man having free will, because no Scripture says we don't have free will.

The argument must therefore be made from the sense of all Scripture together.

Your god of respect of persons and hypocritical judgment is false. I say God is Creator of all men alike, and all men are free to choose His good and life, or rebel against Him, and each man is fairly judged accordingly.

 

[marks]

"you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16),

John 15:16 KJV
16) Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Jesus told these men that they hadn't chosen Jesus, Jesus chose them. But this is not an exclusionary statement, nor policy, nothing like that. It tells us what Jesus said to them, of them.

and to believe (John 6:29)

John 6:29 KJV
29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

This is one reason I wish people would post the passage itself, and not just the reference, since so many times I find the verse referenced doesn't say what the the comment purports.

This isn't saying that God chooses who will and who won't believe on Jesus.

and to be born again (John 3:3-8)

John 3:3-8 KJV
3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8) The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Then where exactly does this passage say that God chooses who will and won't be born again?

You make a lot of statements, and you list a lot of verses, but I'm not finding that these verses make the same statements as do you.

I can continue to post the rest of the passages, but first I'll see your response to this.

Much love

 

[Kermos]

So then. We're at an end. Nothing new here but repeated mantra and accusation.

And the first main point made is never acknowledged, much less addressed:

If an argument can be made for man having no free will, because no Scripture says we have free will. Then the equal and opposite argument can be made for man having free will, because no Scripture says we don't have free will.

The argument must therefore be made from the sense of all Scripture together.

Your god of respect of persons and hypocritical judgment is false. I say God is Creator of all men alike, and all men are free to choose His good and life, or rebel against Him, and each man is fairly judged accordingly.

No Christian calls the Word of God an Eastern Religion Mantra as you have done with your words of "Nothing new here but repeated mantra". God had me proclaim to you the following clearly labeled Word of God.

Christians are in awe of the works of God and poignantly the Word of God.

Christians do not adulterate the Word of God nor do Christians nullify the works of God.

You deceive yourself that your words are greater than Lord Jesus Christ's words again because the Word of God eliminates any and all potential for free-willian philosophy with:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15 , the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage), yet you adulterate the Word of God into "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (the word of Gilligan).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God chooses people unto salvation, yet you adulterate the Word of God into "you chose me to get yourself out of the world and into the Kingdom of God" (the word of Gilligan) - compare your words to the Lord Jesus explaining that without the intervention of the Holy Spirit of Almighty God, you cannot even perceive the Kingdom of God righteously, much less King Jesus, with "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3).
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time, yet you adulterate the Word of God into "What I say to you I say to you and only you" (the word of Gilligan).

Christians are in awe of the works of God and the Word of God. I am in awe of the works of God and the Word of God.

Christians do not adulterate the Word of God. You adulterate the Word of God into some strange beast such that it is no longer the Word of God but truly the word of Gilligan Free-willian philosophy.

You add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Of the new Jerusalem, the Apostle John wrote "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27) - notice that no one who practices lying gets in, and a human adding to scripture is the human lying.

Your free will assertion is referring to man attempting to override God's thoughts with man's thoughts, and that is a grievous sin.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Hillsage]

So how did he CHOOSE to disobey without a free will? Do you seriously believe he was PROGRAMMED to disobey?

What does scripture say?

RSV ROM 11:32 For God has consigned/sugkleio all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

4788 sugkleio; to shut together, i.e. include or (fig.) embrace in a common subjection to

KJV = "concluded"
NAS= "shut up"
NIV = "bound"

I don't know of 'a' verse saying we have 'free will', can you share one?

 

[Hillsage]

John 3:3-8 KJV
3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8) The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Then where exactly does this passage say that God chooses who will and won't be born again?

You make a lot of statements, and you list a lot of verses, but I'm not finding that these verses make the same statements as do you.

I can continue to post the rest of the passages, but first I'll see your response to this.

I know you asked Kernos, but here is 'my response'. ;)

Read verse 8 again, in other translations. That little KJV word "listeth" means more to this position of yours, than you may realize.

YLT JOH 3:8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'

RSV JOH 3:8 The wind//SPIRIT blows where IT wills, ...

NAS JOH 3:8 "The wind blows where IT WISHES...

So, it appears to me that it is HIS VOICE calling us/drawing us/choosing us FIRST, before we can believe unto salvation.

ACT 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained/tasso to eternal life believed.

5021 tasso: to arrange in an orderly manner, i.e. assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot)

IMO, being "assigned" to believe or being "disposed" to believe 'to a position' of being born again/saved, is more the will of God, than it is the will of the child needing to be 'born again'.

 

[Enoch111]

RSV ROM 11:32 For God has consigned/sugkleio all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.

That does NOT apply to Adam.

 

[Gilligan]

No Christian calls the Word of God an Eastern Religion Mantra as you have done with your words of "Nothing new here but repeated mantra". God had me proclaim to you the following clearly labeled Word of God.

Not possible, since your teaching is not Scripture's.

When I say mantra, I'm speaking of anything repeated for sake of repetition, that no longer has any bearing on the argument at hand.

I.e. your repeated words are old hat mantra to me, that are become meaningless, since I've already corrected them several times. I no longer bother.

Christians are in awe of the works of God and poignantly the Word of God.

I don't respect someone's words, just because they do it with poignant awe. Babylon the Great has plenty of poignant awe in her heresies.

Christians do not adulterate the Word of God nor do Christians nullify the works of God.

Christians are the ones most eligible to teach false doctrine, especially that of Christ, because Christians are the ones that most care about it in the first place. And Christians do ignorantly or willingly teach false doctrine all the time, such as yourself. I've sincerely believed and taught false doctrine over the years, until I was corrected.

It's not so much that a Christian has never believed a false tradition and taught it themselves, but that we must be correctable when the time comes.

You're not correctable. You avoid specific challenges, such as the first one I made to your argument, and just write around and over it with your own repeated mantra.

You deceive yourself that your words are greater than Lord Jesus Christ's words again because the Word of God eliminates any and all potential for free-willian philosophy with:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15 , the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage), yet you adulterate the Word of God into "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (the word of Gilligan).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God chooses people unto salvation, yet you adulterate the Word of God into "you chose me to get yourself out of the world and into the Kingdom of God" (the word of Gilligan) - compare your words to the Lord Jesus explaining that without the intervention of the Holy Spirit of Almighty God, you cannot even perceive the Kingdom of God righteously, much less King Jesus, with "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3).
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time, yet you adulterate the Word of God into "What I say to you I say to you and only you" (the word of Gilligan).

Christians are in awe of the works of God and the Word of God. I am in awe of the works of God and the Word of God.

Christians do not adulterate the Word of God. You adulterate the Word of God into some strange beast such that it is no longer the Word of God but truly the word of Gilligan Free-willian philosophy.

You add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Of the new Jerusalem, the Apostle John wrote "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27) - notice that no one who practices lying gets in, and a human adding to scripture is the human lying.

Your free will assertion is referring to man attempting to override God's thoughts with man's thoughts, and that is a grievous sin.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

As you've done once again here. Your a copy and paste repeater, rather than an honest debater.

I'll try one last time: Your conclusion that men have no free will, begins with the fact that Scripture does not specifically say men have free will. The same conclusion can be made for men having free will, since no Scripture specifically says men do not have free will.

If you fail to acknowledge this simple point, then you show no honesty in the debate, but only continue down the road of copy and paste doctrinal mantra and false accusation.

 

[marks]

Free will: an autonomous will, an isolated willpower, detached volition, independent moral agency.

A will exists not in a vacuum; in other words, a will must be part of a host.

I guess I'm coming in late . . .

Naturally only God has a completely free will. All others are created beings, and are only able to choose as according to their created nature.

We can choose to eat an apple or an orange, but only if there is an apple and an orange available. We can choose to go swimming, but we cannot choose to swim to the bottom of the ocean.

So in asking if Adam had "free will", it depends on what you mean. I don't know that he could have chosen to implode the sun, for instance. Not trying to be flippant here, just to define what we mean.

So when you say "free will", what exactly does that mean?

Being offered an apple and an orange, and being invited to select one, doesn't that assume that we are able to?

Much love!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

@Titus @Ernest T. Bass @Gilligan

All of you are of the same spirit, coming out of the woodwork nearly in unison, spreading your deceptions. Notice the similarity of your thoughts.

Your heart, Titus says that David said "I was brought into a world of iniquity" which is NOT what David wrote, truly David wrote "I was brought forth in iniquity" (Psalm 51:5), and this post shows the Hebrew grammar of Psalm 51:5 that shows the Spiritual Truth (John 14:6) that man is evil from birth and in need of the Savior.

Way back here in January 2023, it is recorded that you, Ernest T. Bass, wrote "The Bible does say men are sinful, wicked but no verse says man is born sinful, wicked" (the word of Ernest T. Bass), but then from January into March 2023 you were shown "The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth" (Psalm 58:3) which reveals the spiritual truth that is opposite of your hearts treasure (Matthew 15:16-19) contriving that man is inherently good with your adulterated scripture of your unscriptural thoughts of "The wicked are NOT estranged from the womb; these who speak lies DO NOT go astray from birth" (the word of Ernest T. Bass), which is in accord with the doctrine of demons (1 Timothy 4:1) you persist in saying that Psalm 58:3 does not say what Psalm 58:3 does say.

With your closing paragraph, Gilligan, you evilly adulterate "The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth" (Psalm 58:3) into your heart's treasure (Matthew 15:16-19) of "The wicked are not estranged from the womb; these who speak lies do not go astray from birth" (the word of Gilligan) which is the traditions of man that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9), so you reveal your self-willed reviling of King Jesus by claiming you can do the opposite of the King's decree of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) along with "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Notice further, each of you stopped conversing at those referenced posts. Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may become accountable to God (Romans 3:19).

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

I's been shown you but you continue to take verses out of context and apply your theology, that is why you get rare responses from me now. Jn 15:16 as explained many times, Jesus is IN CONTEXT is speaking to those He chose to the office of an Apostle and has nothing to do with how men are saved. You reject the context and substitute your Calvinism into so there is nothing else for me to say on this subject.

 

[Kermos]

I encourage you, Enoch111, to exercise diligent care for it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

So how did he CHOOSE to disobey without a free will?

The cause of Adam eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is explicitly stated by the Word of God with "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’" (Genesis 3:17).

Take heed, the first word of this passage is "because" meaning "being the cause", so Adam's action of listening to Eve and eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was the cause of Adam's punishment, not God, no such thing as Adam's free-will, but truly Adam listened to Eve and ate of the forbidden tree; moreover, the Hebrew word for "choose" appears not in Genesis 3:17, in fact, the word "choose" is absent in Genesis chapters 1 to 5; in other words, Adam exercised no choosing, but Adam exercised listening.

We covered this previously in this thread about a year and one half ago, as this link shows, but you just disappeared in typical free-willian behavior.

To explicitly answer your question, Adam did not choose and Adam did not have a free-will (did you read the post to which you replied because only self-will or Christimage-will exists but free-will cannot exist on it's own).

Enoch111, I am NOT challenging the concept that a person, or Adam in this particular case, can choose away from God.

Enoch111, I have written repeatedly that man cannot choose toward God for the King of the Kingdom of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation), and all the blessings of God mentioned in this paragraph are to all believers in all time because Christ says "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37) to the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John whom Christ had taken aside in private and said this.

Do you seriously believe he was PROGRAMMED to disobey?

Enoch111, it sounds like you disbelieve that the Potter's Mighty Right Hand (Romans 9:18-24) molds the clay.

Adam was literally molded from the dust by God (Genesis 2:7).

No will of Adam participated in his eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because the Apostle conveyed that Adam “not willingly” subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Enoch111]

...but truly Adam listened to Eve and ate of the forbidden tree...

Was that an exercise of free will, or did God program Adam to listen to Eve? Do you see how absurd your reasoning is becoming?

 

[Hillsage]

That does NOT apply to Adam.

You are entitled to 'your opinion' since that's all you posted. I posted a scripture, and in my book "ALL men" means ALL. Adam would be included IMO.

RSV ROM 11:32 For God has consigned/sugkleio ALL men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.

 

[Enoch111]

Adam would be included IMO.

And that would be plain silly.

 

[Patrick1966]

I believe mankind was cursed with the affliction called "sin" and we were created capable of engaging in sin, which we do! We will be cured of that affliction in the hereafter and then we will be incapable of sinning and we will have the lessons of this sinful world to remind us that following God is the ONLY good way.

 

[Kermos]

John 15:16 KJV
16) Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Jesus told these men that they hadn't chosen Jesus, Jesus chose them. But this is not an exclusionary statement, nor policy, nothing like that. It tells us what Jesus said to them, of them.

The Word of God declares "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) which is absolutely exclusionary.

The only way you, marks, can make that non-exclusionary is "you did choose Me, and I potentially chose you" (the word of marks based upon your quoted thoughts above).

And, the Word of God tells us Christians what the Christ says to us, of us, because the Christ says "What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned in John 15:16 and John 15:19 are to all believers in all time,

John 6:29 KJV
29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

This is one reason I wish people would post the passage itself, and not just the reference, since so many times I find the verse referenced doesn't say what the the comment purports.

This isn't saying that God chooses who will and who won't believe on Jesus.

Nobody, absolutely no mere person, can believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent unless God imparts said faith into the person because the Christ of us Christians says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Are you saying, marks, "This is the work of man causing the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent"?

John 3:3-8 KJV
3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8) The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Then where exactly does this passage say that God chooses who will and won't be born again?

You make a lot of statements, and you list a lot of verses, but I'm not finding that these verses make the same statements as do you.

Do you think that a person causes the person's own birth?

Now, of John 3:3-8 you ask "where exactly does this passage say that God chooses who will and won't be born again".

King Jesus says "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit" (John 3:8), so the Holy Spirit of Almighty God causes a person to be born again. Right here, marks, God chooses precisely who will be born again.

We find something related in the book of Ecclesiastes with "As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, [nor] how the bones [do grow] in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all" (Ecclesiastes 11:5, KJV).

This can also be translated "Just as you do not know the path of the wind and how bones are formed in the womb of the pregnant woman, so you do not know the activity of God who makes all things" (Ecclesiastes 11:5, NASB).

Yet another translation "As you do not know the way the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything" (Ecclesiastes 11:5, ESV).

I can continue to post the rest of the passages, but first I'll see your response to this.

Much love

You cannot post in Truth (John 14:6) based upon your above pattern, though, because:

1. Our Christian's gracious Benefactor produces
   1. divine choice of we beneficiaries unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says
      "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19)
      AND, Paul is in accord with Jesus' words for he wrote to the Ephesians "Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love" (Ephesians 1:3-4)
      SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 state God exclusively chooses us believers by/of/through God
   2. beneficiaries' faith/belief in Lord Jesus, for the Christ of us Christians says
      "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29)
      AND Paul is in accord with Jesus' words for Paul wrote to the Ephesians "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work, created in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:8-10)
      AND Peter is in accord with Jesus' words for Peter declared "God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith" (Acts 15:8-9)
      SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is exclusively by/of/through God
   3. beneficiaries' fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says
      "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21)
      AND Paul is in accord with Jesus' words for he wrote to the Philippians "being filled with the fruit of righteousness that [is] by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God" (Philippians 1:11)
      SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is exclusively by/of/through God
   4. beneficiaries' birth by the Holy Spirit, for the Christ of us Christians says
      "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:5-8)
      AND Peter is in accord with Jesus' words for he wrote to persons residing as aliens "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3)
      SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 3:5-8 state we believers being born again is exclusively by/of/through God
   5. beneficiaries' repent by God's working, for the Christ of us Christians says
      "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes" (Matthew 11:25)
      AND the apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus' words with thier saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life" (Acts 11:18)
      SO, clearly, Jesus' words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward)
   6. beneficiaries' love by God's working, for the Christ of us Christians says
      "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another" (John 13:34)
      AND John is in accord with Jesus' words for he wrote "Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God" (1 John 4:7, see the phrase "love is from God" meaning God is the source of true love)
      AND John expands with his writing of "God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him" (1 John 4:16, see the phrase "one who abides in Love" is equivocated with "one who abides" "in God" which extends from God's exclusivity with "God is Love")
      SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Kermos]

I's been shown you but you continue to take verses out of context and apply your theology, that is why you get rare responses from me now. Jn 15:16 as explained many times, Jesus is IN CONTEXT is speaking to those He chose to the office of an Apostle and has nothing to do with how men are saved. You reject the context and substitute your Calvinism into so there is nothing else for me to say on this subject.

Let's just look at how your history.

(1) you ignore Philippians 2:12 relation to Philippians 2:13 where God works the will of believers to obey, (2) you think "good" fruit by you is caused by you, yet we Christians know our good fruit is caused by God because it is fruit of the Spirit, (3) you confuse what scripture states such as in Hebrews 3:12, and (4) you didn't know why the Old Testament was written., and there is some about perseverance of the saints by God in the post, too.

The contradiction illuminated between "this is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the Word of God Jesus Christ, John 6:29) contrasted against "this is you working the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the word of Ernest T. Bass) exhibits your traditions of men fail (Matthew 15:9).

This post preludes the examination of your post in 5 segments:

• SEGMENT 1: your heart adulterates Jesus' words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) into the words of Ernest T. Bass "you of the office of an Apostle did not choose Me, but I chose you for the office of an Apostle only".
• SEGMENT 2: Commands show who is of who or what, and people in Old Testament times were unable to keep the commandments for the Apostle Peter declared "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?" (Acts 15:10).
• SEGMENT 3: God works believers repentance.
• SEGMENT 4: the first state of being for people is opposition against God.
• SEGMENT 5: you wickedly call God "insane", "cruel", "sadistic", and "evil" - EVEN "EVIL" - yet God loves the children of God soooooo much that God exclusively saves us incapable wretches from the wrath of God.

You are shown that "free-will" is scripturally a misnomer for autonomous will which is properly identified as "self-will" in scripture, and the Spiritual implications are explicit.

You are shown that Lord Jesus' use of "you" in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and in "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you" (John 14:16-17) are to all believers in all time (SEGMENT 1 OF 5 redux); additionally, you are shown to adulterate the words of Christ with "he shall teach you (Apostles) all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" (the word of Ernest T. Bass) which truly is "the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you" (John 14:26), and a Christian does not do the shameful, unchristian thing of changing the words of Christ!

You call God many evil names. Commands show who is of who or what (SEGMENT 2 OF 5 redux), and man is not saved by the works of man, but man is saved by the works of God.

Now, you adulterate "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life" (Acts 11:18) into your heart's new unbiblical scripture of "Well then, God has granted to offer to the Gentiles also the opportunity for repentance that leads to life." (the word of Ernest T. Bass) (SEGMENT 3 OF 5 redux), and your heart's illegal redefinition of the word granted is exposed.

You wickedly adulterate "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (the Word of God Jesus Christ, John 3:5) into your strange fire of "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one obeys water baptism ritual to cause oneself to be born of the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (the word of Ernest T. Bass), and Lord Jesus says being "born of the Spirit" is exclusively under God's Sovereign control.

You blame God for men's actions, yet self-willed men are accountable for their own actions a.k.a. sin and "Man Opening The Door To Salvation - The Free-willian Philosophy Explained" (SEGMENT 5 OF 5 redux) which explains the blood at the cross established a spot in Heaven for an individual who never heard the Gospel, but that spot will remain vacant for all eternity - the god of the free-willians was unable to keep the spot occupied.

Your heart wickedly converts "If it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, 'You shall not covet.'” (The Apostle Paul, Romans 7:7) into your adulterated "If the law had not been, I would have known sin for it is senseless for God to issue the Law. For I would have known with the ability to obey what it is to not covet when the law had said, “You shall not covet.'" (the word of Ernest T. Bass) (SEGMENT 2 OF 5 redux), and your exhibit unbelief in "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?" (the Apostle Peter, Acts 15:10).

You claim "No one is good except man and God alone" (the word of Ernest T. Bass), yet the True Word of God says "No one is good except God alone " (Mark 10:18), so you argue there is no need for the Savior Jesus because you say man is good enough so you nullify the cross in your heart (Matthew 15:16-19).

In your heart, you adulterate "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9) into your self-willed shout (2 Peter 2:9-10) of "The heart is not deceitful above all things, and not desperately wicked" (the word of Ernest T. Bass).

I quoted Psalm 58:3 to you repeatedly, but you blindly blew past it, and now you adulterate "The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth" (Psalm 58:3) into your unscriptural thoughts of "The wicked are NOT estranged from the womb; these who speak lies DO NOT go astray from birth" (the word of Ernest T. Bass) based upon your closing paragraph, and ALL PEOPLE ARE EVIL AT BIRTH EXCEPT FOR CHRIST WHO was the only sinless person of His own doings for it is written of the Lord Jesus Christ, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" (2 Corinthians 5:21). SEE THAT CHRIST "KNEW NO SIN" - this means that your free-willian philosophy is delusion.

Way back here in January 2023, it is recorded that you wrote "The Bible does say men are sinful, wicked but no verse says man is born sinful, wicked" (the word of Ernest T. Bass), but then from January into March 2023 you were shown "The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth" (Psalm 58:3) which reveals the spiritual truth that is opposite of your hearts treasure (Matthew 15:16-19) contriving that man is inherently good with your adulterated scripture of your unscriptural thoughts of "The wicked are NOT estranged from the womb; these who speak lies DO NOT go astray from birth" (the word of Ernest T. Bass), which is in accord with the doctrine of demons (1 Timothy 4:1) you persist in saying that Psalm 58:3 does not say what Psalm 58:3 does say.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Kermos]

What does scripture say?

RSV ROM 11:32 For God has consigned/sugkleio all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

4788 sugkleio; to shut together, i.e. include or (fig.) embrace in a common subjection to

KJV = "concluded"
NAS= "shut up"
NIV = "bound"

I don't know of 'a' verse saying we have 'free will', can you share one?

God bless you, Hillsage,

Praise God, this passage is to God's glory!