Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

[Gilligan]

Let's look at scripture abour free-will, self-will, and bond-will, each in turn in the following paragraphs.

The Apostle Paul refers to free will as illusory, as an illusion, when he wrote "but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14), and there is the Bible's single reference to free-will that I have found.

The Apostle Peter refers to self will as concrete fact, that self-willed persons are unbelievers when he wrote "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10), so self-willed people revile the Majesty of King Jesus in their "I chose Jesus" in spite of the King saying:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15 , the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The Apostle Paul refers to bond will in every Christian, that a Christian's will is lovingky bound to God by God for God, when he wrote "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13), so we Christians have wills that are bound and controlled by the Power of God - by God's grace for God's glory (Ephesians 2:8-10).

YOU CLASSIFIED YOURSELF AS A SELF-WILLED PERSON IN YOUR POST QUOTED ABOVE.

You were absolutely correct when you wrote "God does not bow down to the demands of unbelievers" because self-willed unbelievers issue reviling demands like "I chose Jesus and now Jesus must save me".

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

Old hat already answered. Unlike you, I don't write just to hear myself talk.

 

[Kermos]

No Scripture says we are not given free will, therefore any such argument one way or the other based upon Scripture plainly saying so is false. You say not based upon what is not said in Scripture.

My argument for free will is not based upon what is not written, as you do, but based upon the Scriptures showing man must have free will to choose to serve the Lord, or t willfully sin against Him.

Calvin's no free will doctrine is false, and is only made to foolishly try explain why some choose not to serve and love the Lord. It's foolish, because the Lord Himself says He does not understand why.

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Calvin idiotically messed up an otherwise good ministry of Christ in Geneva, when he came up with that predetermined and non-willing salvation heresy.

It has led many Christians into more ungodliness.



Rejecting your willful faith in Calvin's heresy, is not rejecting the Scriptures of God.

I corrected your errant teaching of them. Errors taught cannot be erased, but only corrected. Unless the false teacher wants to repent and erase them himself.



As I said above, I cannot eliminate your false testimony of Peter and Paul, but only correct it.


I.e. any willingness on your part to be corrected is dead. Once I saw that after the first challenge, it's all just been an exercise in correcting error by rightly dividing the written word. You do know that's the only reason I've continued with you, right?

And now I see you've exhausted your arguments with nothing new, but only fallen into childish accusations, so things are winding down to an end with you.



There is no self-will without the free will to choose our own will.

God does not given any man self-will, nor is He the author of lust and sin:

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.


Your teaching is false, and you falsely accuse God of giving certain men the will to wilfully rebel against Him.

God gives power of free will to all men, and we can abuse that power by choosing our own will and produce our own lust for sinning, rather than choose to do the will of God.


True.


True again.


Whatever.


Already challenged your reading of this, to which you have no answer.


I'm not sure if you've offered this challenge before, so I'll respond.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

No man comes to the Father, except we come to the Son, and no man comes to the Son, except the Father draws him to the Son.

And all men are drawn to the Son, but some freely refuse His calling, as Adam did when he wilfully ate of the fruit he was commanded not to eat of.

And some men are so willfully against coming to God, that He no longer draws them and gives up on them to a reprobate mind. (Rom 1)

I'll remember if you just offer the verse again without acknowledging the response, as you do elsewhere.



True. It's the will of man freely given to do the will of God.

No Scripture speaks of a 'bound will', as though there is no choice to do or not to do.

We being bound to do the will of God, is not a bound will, but the free willingness to bind ourselves to Christ.


God's thoughts were not in Calvin's nor yours, while teaching predetermined no-freedom of will salvation.


I don't add to the Scripture free will, but teach it from what is written. You add to the Scripture no free will, then try to wring it out of Scripture's neck.


Thou art the man.


True. the first one was Adam who freely overrode God's commandment to do his own will.


True. Self-will is a result of God-given free will abused.

You wrote "My argument for free will is not based upon what is not written", yet no scripture states that man was imparted free-will by God; therefore, your heart adulterates the Word of God, for example, you adulterated Genesis 2:16-17 as shown in this conclusive proof of no free-will in the creation account in 6 posts in response to your first post in this thread (that I noticed) including post 1 of 6 showing your adulteration of the Word of God recorded in Genesis 2:16-17.

You also wrote:

"No Scripture says we are not given free will, therefore any such argument one way or the other based upon Scripture plainly saying so is false. You say not based upon what is not said in Scripture."
​

Again, your heart adulterates the Word of God because there is Scripture that clearly states man is incapable of free-will choosing Jesus, and here is the Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16).

Unbelievers do not believe the Word of God who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), yet we Christian's believe the Christ, and we Christians are Godly. Therefore, your writing of "Christians into more ungodliness" demonstrates your lack of spiritual understanding.

The leaven of your self-willed thoughts corrupts your teaching, and here is even more proof. You wrote:

"I'm not sure if you've offered this challenge before, so I'll respond.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

"No man comes to the Father, except we come to the Son, and no man comes to the Son, except the Father draws him to the Son.

"And all men are drawn to the Son, but some freely refuse His calling, as Adam did when he wilfully ate of the fruit he was commanded not to eat of.

"And some men are so willfully against coming to God, that He no longer draws them and gives up on them to a reprobate mind. (Rom 1)

"I'll remember if you just offer the verse again without acknowledging the response, as you do elsewhere."
​

Every person is created with self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) as their first state of being, and God alone is capable of causing a person to be born again with a will which is controlled by God (John 3:3-8, Philippians 2:13) for the love of God controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14).

With this foundation of Truth (John 14:6), it is now time to move onto where are you wrote "no man comes to the Son, except the Father draws him to the Son" which appears to be based upon "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:44).

First of all, there is no mention of free-will in John 6:44, nor John 14:6 for that matter.

Next, are you familiar with the concept of a person drawing water from water well by which a person pulls water out of a subterranean pool of water? I'm talking about a well, such as the well described in John chapter 4 where Jesus has the encounter with the woman at the well.

The point here is that God draws a person - God pulls the person into a loving relationship with Christ (John 6:44) not the person doing anything, but truly God controlling the person.

All of the persons chosen by Jesus are drawn to Jesus (John 6:44, John 15:16, John 15:19), and only the person's chosen by Jesus are drawn to Jesus (John 6:44, John 15:16, John 15:19).

You moved on to Romans chapter 1, and there is no mansion of free-will anywhere in the chapter; moreover, we find some description about self-willed people who reject God.

So, Romans 1 contains the Apostle Paul describing a corollary to the Apostle Peter's writing about self-will with "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

You are shown in the above to adulterate the Word of God such as adding free-will to John 6:44. No Christian adulterates the Word of God.

Now, it's time to move on to see what your next post contains.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Kermos]

Old hat already answered. Unlike you, I don't write just to hear myself talk.

As truthfully articulated in the just now wrapped up analysis of your previous post in this thread, your answer is in deception, not Truth (John 14:6).

Since no scripture states man was imparted free-will, then the only way to arrive at man having free-will is for you to add free-will to the Word of God, but then it is no longer the Word of God because you have adulterated it causing your free-will contrivance to be the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

Every time you reference free-will for yourself, you refer to a thing that you concoct in your imagination, yet that free-will is non-existent.

Essentially, your thoughts are out of concord with the Word of God.

Hmm, let's see what you do talk about after just wrapping up the analysis of your previous post in this thread. You include yourself in the group of self-willed people.

Exactly. Self-will is from the freedom to choose who will we will serve.

All Scripture points to man's freedom of will to choose. You say we have no such freedom, as opposed to animals, because you want to hear God say the words, "I give you free will to choose." God does not bow down to the demands of unbelievers.

You need to make no mistake about this, self-will is damnation. Self-will is not the same thing as free-will.

Let's look at scripture abour free-will, self-will, and bond-will, each in turn in the following paragraphs.

The Apostle Paul refers to free will as illusory, as an illusion, when he wrote "but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14), and there is the Bible's single reference to free-will that I have found.

The Apostle Peter refers to self will as concrete fact, that self-willed persons are unbelievers when he wrote "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10), so self-willed people revile the Majesty of King Jesus in their "I chose Jesus" in spite of the King saying:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15 , the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The Apostle Paul refers to bond will in every Christian, that a Christian's will is lovingky bound to God by God for God, when he wrote "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13), so we Christians have wills that are bound and controlled by the Power of God - by God's grace for God's glory (Ephesians 2:8-10).

YOU CLASSIFIED YOURSELF AS A SELF-WILLED PERSON IN YOUR POST QUOTED ABOVE.

You were absolutely correct when you wrote "God does not bow down to the demands of unbelievers" because self-willed unbelievers issue reviling demands like "I chose Jesus and now Jesus must save me".

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Gilligan]

Again, your heart adulterates the Word of God because there is Scripture that clearly states man is incapable of free-will choosing Jesus, and here is the Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16).

One last time. I challenged your Calvinist reading of this at the first. You will not so much as acknowledge it, much less refute it. I'll not bother reminding you again.

Every person is created with self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) as their first state of being,

False, otherwise Adam would have not obeyed the Lord at all. He did so, and even was a true prophet of marriage. He was obeying the Lord until the moment he ate the fruit God commanded him not to.

Your correct teaching on self-will forbids Adam ever obeying God in the first place. Since he did for a season, it proves another will before becoming self-willed: freely wilfully obeying the Lord. Obeying Him with free will.

2 Peter 2 has nothing to do with how men are created, but how men behave themselves afterward. You read into it how men are created based upon your false conclusion, that there is no free will. Scripture never says there is no free will.

and God alone is capable of causing a person to be born again with a will which is controlled by God (John 3:3-8, Philippians 2:13) for the love of God controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14).

By reading into Scripture your own error, you miss the obvious. Paul is speaking of ministry, not his own manner of life in Christ. The love of God constrains the called preacher to preach, and to only preach the gospel of Christ according to the Scriptures.

For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! (1 Cor 9)

Woe unto the called preacher that preaches not, even as the silent prophet as with fire in his bones. And woe unto anyone preaching not the gospel of Christ, but another cursed gospel.

God controls no man's will, including god's preachers.

Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your for by faith ye stand.

The point here is that God draws a person - God pulls the person into a loving relationship with Christ (John 6:44) not the person doing anything, but truly God controlling the person.

Men are not buckets with ropes tied to them. No man is saved by dead faith alone, being dragged to the finish line.

You moved on to Romans chapter 1, and there is no mansion of free-will anywhere in the chapter; moreover, we find some description about self-willed people who reject God.

Even as no Scripture says there is free will, there is no scripture saying there is no free will.

I don't argue therefore based upon scripture saying anything about 'free will'. Therefore, I argue for it based upon the sense of all Scripture together. You however do argue based on what is not written, There is no free will. Therefore all your arguments of Scripture are based upon a false conclusion.

You've done so pertaining to the preacher Paul being constrained by God to preach the Gospel, and erroneously call it God controlling man's will in life.

So, Romans 1 contains the Apostle Paul describing a corollary to the Apostle Peter's writing about self-will with "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

And here you do the same reading falsely into scripture, your own teaching. 2 Peter 2 says nothing of how people are created and born, but how they choose to behave in life. You erroneously insert being born that way.

Now, it's time to move on to see what your next post contains.

Just one question. Since you say God controls your will, do you no more fall into temptation and sin?

 

[Gilligan]

Since no scripture states man was imparted free-will, then the only way to arrive at man having free-will is for you to add free-will to the Word of God,

Since no scripture states man was not imparted free-will, then the only way to arrive at man having no free-will, is for you to add no free-will to the Word of God.

As I said, no man can argue from words not written in Scripture. You do, and I don't. I argue from all Scripture together for free will, you interpret all Scripture together from your false conclusion of no free will.

but then it is no longer the Word of God because you have adulterated it causing your free-will contrivance to be the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

Every time you reference free-will for yourself, you refer to a thing that you concoct in your imagination, yet that free-will is non-existent.

Essentially, your thoughts are out of concord with the Word of God.

Hmm, let's see what you do talk about after just wrapping up the analysis of your previous post in this thread. You include yourself in the group of self-willed people.



You need to make no mistake about this, self-will is damnation. Self-will is not the same thing as free-will.

Let's look at scripture abour free-will, self-will, and bond-will, each in turn in the following paragraphs.

The Apostle Paul refers to free will as illusory, as an illusion, when he wrote "but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14), and there is the Bible's single reference to free-will that I have found.

The Apostle Peter refers to self will as concrete fact, that self-willed persons are unbelievers when he wrote "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10), so self-willed people revile the Majesty of King Jesus in their "I chose Jesus" in spite of the King saying:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15 , the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The Apostle Paul refers to bond will in every Christian, that a Christian's will is lovingky bound to God by God for God, when he wrote "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13), so we Christians have wills that are bound and controlled by the Power of God - by God's grace for God's glory (Ephesians 2:8-10).

YOU CLASSIFIED YOURSELF AS A SELF-WILLED PERSON IN YOUR POST QUOTED ABOVE.

You were absolutely correct when you wrote "God does not bow down to the demands of unbelievers" because self-willed unbelievers issue reviling demands like "I chose Jesus and now Jesus must save me".

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

Old hat and accusation again. Booooring.

You really do like to hear yourself talk, don't you.

 

[ButterflyJones]

It was not just good, bad translation. It was Perfect, mature, able to produce on it's own, and good in God's sight. Complete without any need to evolve. On the 7th day it multiplied in a perfect state for 1000 years, while God watched. Then God planted a Garden, and took one of those created on the 6th day, and placed him in the Garden. He then named that human, Adam. That human had been perfect in a perfect world for 1000 years. 30 years after God placed Adam in the Garden, Adam listened to Eve, instead of God, and God changed the course of History. 4000 years later on a Cross, God at 33.5 years of age, Changed history again. It has been 1990 years, and history will end. There will be one last 1000 years of Perfection, not with Adam. BUT with Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God.

The first 1000 years there was free will to do as humans pleased without an evil result. When Adam disobeyed, the result of human choices would always be evil, and seldom good. It is not a matter of free will. The freedom for man to do as he pleased has never changed. It is the result that is changed in a world where both evil and good are knowledgeable. We know there is good, but all decisions, all biological functions tend to spiral downward to a point of evil. One bad fruit, can spoil the whole bunch. The more humans advance with easier technology, the more the masses suffer from that technology. There is no escape from bad happening. It is the result that is to blame, not the ability to exercise free will.

I venture to say Eve nor Adam we're cognizant of consequences. They knew not obedience or disobedience in the context of God's edict to obey.

Whereas, it was Omniscient God's garden creation. And he planted a forbidden tree there first. And after having created all things judged it good.

Everything happened after that according to God's will and plan.

Therefore, in reality given God's Sovereignty man followed that plan. If they could consciously choose to obey they would have to first know what that means in order to make an informed choice to wilfully disobey.

 

[Kermos]

The Tradition Man Created Teaching That Man Is Good - An Open Conspiracy

No Scripture says we are not given free will, therefore any such argument one way or the other based upon Scripture plainly saying so is false. You say not based upon what is not said in Scripture.

My argument for free will is not based upon what is not written, as you do, but based upon the Scriptures showing man must have free will to choose to serve the Lord, or t willfully sin against Him.

Calvin's no free will doctrine is false, and is only made to foolishly try explain why some choose not to serve and love the Lord. It's foolish, because the Lord Himself says He does not understand why.

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Calvin idiotically messed up an otherwise good ministry of Christ in Geneva, when he came up with that predetermined and non-willing salvation heresy.

It has led many Christians into more ungodliness.



Rejecting your willful faith in Calvin's heresy, is not rejecting the Scriptures of God.

I corrected your errant teaching of them. Errors taught cannot be erased, but only corrected. Unless the false teacher wants to repent and erase them himself.



As I said above, I cannot eliminate your false testimony of Peter and Paul, but only correct it.


I.e. any willingness on your part to be corrected is dead. Once I saw that after the first challenge, it's all just been an exercise in correcting error by rightly dividing the written word. You do know that's the only reason I've continued with you, right?

And now I see you've exhausted your arguments with nothing new, but only fallen into childish accusations, so things are winding down to an end with you.



There is no self-will without the free will to choose our own will.

God does not given any man self-will, nor is He the author of lust and sin:

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.


Your teaching is false, and you falsely accuse God of giving certain men the will to wilfully rebel against Him.

God gives power of free will to all men, and we can abuse that power by choosing our own will and produce our own lust for sinning, rather than choose to do the will of God.


True.


True again.


Whatever.


Already challenged your reading of this, to which you have no answer.


I'm not sure if you've offered this challenge before, so I'll respond.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

No man comes to the Father, except we come to the Son, and no man comes to the Son, except the Father draws him to the Son.

And all men are drawn to the Son, but some freely refuse His calling, as Adam did when he wilfully ate of the fruit he was commanded not to eat of.

And some men are so willfully against coming to God, that He no longer draws them and gives up on them to a reprobate mind. (Rom 1)

I'll remember if you just offer the verse again without acknowledging the response, as you do elsewhere.



True. It's the will of man freely given to do the will of God.

No Scripture speaks of a 'bound will', as though there is no choice to do or not to do.

We being bound to do the will of God, is not a bound will, but the free willingness to bind ourselves to Christ.


God's thoughts were not in Calvin's nor yours, while teaching predetermined no-freedom of will salvation.


I don't add to the Scripture free will, but teach it from what is written. You add to the Scripture no free will, then try to wring it out of Scripture's neck.


Thou art the man.


True. the first one was Adam who freely overrode God's commandment to do his own will.


True. Self-will is a result of God-given free will abused.

I have generally left your comment about James 1:13 because as the original post clearly states "Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ", and the concept has been covered extensively elsewhere including here in this related post #1,582 to you, but let's take a look at it now.

You wrote:

God does not given any man self-will, nor is He the author of lust and sin:
​

And your basis for your thoughts is:

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
(James 1:13)
​

In the following, it is imperative to remember that Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God. This means Jesus is good because He says "No one is good except God alone" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 10:18), so Christ alone is the exception to when I write all people and such.

Man starts initially as evil, self-willed for the Apostle gives no exception for a person starting otherwise in life with "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10)

Here are the relevant spiritual points about James 1:13 that are together a cohesive unit proving the deception of your way:

• free-will is not contained therein, so James 1:13 is not a proof text for free-will.
• self-will is not mentioned therein. James 1:13 does not indicate "God does not given any man self-will".
• the audience for James' letter is people who are in Christ; in other words, people that are saved (James 1:1-2, James 2:1). The audience constrains the meaning of "anyone" in James 1:13 to exclusively the people of the faith, so James is not addressing the faithless in James 1:13.
• it is written "YHWH tests the righteous and the wicked, And the one who loves violence His soul hates" (Psalm 11:5), so God does not tempt people, but God does test people.
• it is written "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5), so all, and I mean every person except Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21), all people start off as evil, fleshly, self-willed persons for there is no exception indicated anywhere in Scripture.
• it is written "The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth" (Psalm 58:3), so all, and I mean every person except Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21), all people start off as evil, fleshly, self-willed persons for there is no exception indicated anywhere in Scripture.
• it is written "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9), so man is evil and self-willed in his deceitful heart from birth without exception - man is created in the flesh, evil, and self-willed.
• the Apostle Paul wrote
  
  
  you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved
  (Ephesians 2:1-5)
  ​
  So, everyone in the Assembly of God formerly were self-willed people; therefore, everyone starts out in life with a self-will because all of the unsaved people are self-willed.
• thus says Adonai YHWH (Lord GOD) "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself" (Ezekiel 18:20), so every self-willed person goes to hell for practicing lawlessness because of the person's own doing of sin (crimes against God) - their sin is accounted to them yet no self-willed person can escape being self-willed of their own initiative for the Word of God says "And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?" (Luke 12:57).

The original post contains the Truth which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Kermos]

One last time. I challenged your Calvinist reading of this at the first. You will not so much as acknowledge it, much less refute it. I'll not bother reminding you again.


False, otherwise Adam would have not obeyed the Lord at all. He did so, and even was a true prophet of marriage. He was obeying the Lord until the moment he ate the fruit God commanded him not to.

Your correct teaching on self-will forbids Adam ever obeying God in the first place. Since he did for a season, it proves another will before becoming self-willed: freely wilfully obeying the Lord. Obeying Him with free will.

2 Peter 2 has nothing to do with how men are created, but how men behave themselves afterward. You read into it how men are created based upon your false conclusion, that there is no free will. Scripture never says there is no free will.



By reading into Scripture your own error, you miss the obvious. Paul is speaking of ministry, not his own manner of life in Christ. The love of God constrains the called preacher to preach, and to only preach the gospel of Christ according to the Scriptures.

For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! (1 Cor 9)

Woe unto the called preacher that preaches not, even as the silent prophet as with fire in his bones. And woe unto anyone preaching not the gospel of Christ, but another cursed gospel.

God controls no man's will, including god's preachers.

Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your for by faith ye stand.


Men are not buckets with ropes tied to them. No man is saved by dead faith alone, being dragged to the finish line.

Even as no Scripture says there is free will, there is no scripture saying there is no free will.

I don't argue therefore based upon scripture saying anything about 'free will'. Therefore, I argue for it based upon the sense of all Scripture together. You however do argue based on what is not written, There is no free will. Therefore all your arguments of Scripture are based upon a false conclusion.

You've done so pertaining to the preacher Paul being constrained by God to preach the Gospel, and erroneously call it God controlling man's will in life.


And here you do the same reading falsely into scripture, your own teaching. 2 Peter 2 says nothing of how people are created and born, but how they choose to behave in life. You erroneously insert being born that way.


Just one question. Since you say God controls your will, do you no more fall into temptation and sin?

The Christ of us Christians clearly states man is incapable of free-will choosing Jesus, and here is the Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation), and all the blessings of God mentioned in this paragraph are to all believers in all time because Christ says "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37) to the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John whom Christ had taken aside in private and said this.

You are incapable of refuting or challenging Christ's words for the Christ defines us Christians. Unbelievers do not believe the Word of God who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), yet we Christian's believe the Christ, and we Christians are Godly. Therefore, you cannot refute nor challenge the Christ's words in Truth (John 14:6) without your self-will proving that you are an unbeliever.

The balance of your post is leavened by your lie that people are capable of choosing Jesus - as shown above.

The original post contains the Truth which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Gilligan]

The Tradition Man Created Teaching That Man Is Good - An Open Conspiracy

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

All creatures created by God, are created good by God, even as He says. Every thing includes all men, beginning with Adam.

All men are also lightened by the light of Christ coming into the world. (John 1)

You wrote:

God does not given any man self-will, nor is He the author of lust and sin:

And your basis for your thoughts is:

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
(James 1:13)
Click to expand...

True. Creating any man with self-will, that must sin against God, means God creates man to sin against Him.

And so, you teach God creates man to sin, beginning with Adam.

It's akin to the sin nature heresy, that God makes man with sin, that guarantees man will sin.

God does not even tempt to sin, much less create man to sin. God is not the Creator of children of the devil from the womb.

In the following, it is imperative to remember that Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

True.

This means Jesus is good because He says "No one is good except God alone" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 10:18),

Jesus did not come into the world from the womb, any differently than all men since Adam. Other than the womb of Mary was virgin.

The good Creator does not create evil creatures, whether angels or men.

so Christ alone is the exception to when I write all people and such.

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

The admonition is not to boast of doing and being good, which no man can do nor be without God. Including Jesus.

Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

We are what we do, and though the evil may boast of doing evil, the good do not boast of doing good.

The evil bow before the good; and the wicked at the gates of the righteous.

Those that do good, are the good, even as those that do righteousness, are the righteous.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

No man can be righteous as God, and not be good as God, as well as being pure as God.

And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

The saints of God just don't boast about it, since God gets the glory, even as Jesus gave glory to the Father.

Man starts initially as evil, self-willed

God is not the Creator of devils, nor the children of the devil.

Lucifer first sinned against his own good creation by God, and so must man, beginning with Adam.

Your bad news gospel for all men at birth, is false.

 

[Gilligan]

• free-will is not contained therein, so James 1:13 is not a proof text for free-will.

No free-will is not contained in any Scripture, so no Scripture is a proof text for no man having free will.

 

[Kermos]

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

All creatures created by God, are created good by God, even as He says. Every thing includes all men, beginning with Adam.

Adam as part of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world

SINCE God saw creation was very good on the 6th Day (Genesis 1:31)

AND God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind is good (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13)

AND no person can thwart God's Plan (Isaiah 14:27, Isaiah 46:11)

THEN a free will Adam could not have been roaming the Garden of Eden with the ability to choose to obey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17)

SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

THUS a free will Adam could have disrupted God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind

SO God could not conclude with certainty by declaring everything was good on the sixth day with a free will Adam in control roaming the Garden of Eden

THEREFORE it follows that Adam could not be endowed with the attribute of free will

AND God prophesied that Adam would eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:16-17)

SO Adam fulfilled God's prophesy.

All men are also lightened by the light of Christ coming into the world. (John 1)

"He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous" (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 5:45).

True. Creating any man with self-will, that must sin against God, means God creates man to sin against Him.

And so, you teach God creates man to sin, beginning with Adam.

It's akin to the sin nature heresy, that God makes man with sin, that guarantees man will sin.

God does not even tempt to sin, much less create man to sin. God is not the Creator of children of the devil from the womb.

True.

Man Opening The Door To Salvation - The Free-willian Philosophy Explained

Free-willians think a person achieves salvation by doing the work of choosing Jesus, yet free-willians simultaneously think another person goes to hell in the absence of doing the work of choosing Jesus.

THEREFORE, a guy that chose Jesus saves the guy himself, yet a gal that did not choose Jesus condemns the gal herself.

SO, the guy saved himself because without his choosing of Jesus, then he'd be just like that gal.

POINTEDLY, the guy's salvation hinges solely on the guy's choosing Jesus because, in contrast to being saved, the guy would be hell-bound if that hinge of choosing Jesus did not swing open by the guy's power.

The "hinge" of the door mentioned above is based on free will philosophy.

Consider a third individual, who never heard the Gospel of Christ, such a person is not going to be with Christ in His Kingdom - even under free-willian philosophy.

In this sample population, the majority do not enter Heaven, yet the entire population of people are created by God.

Free-willians preach that their god atones for the sins of every man everywhere in all time after the cross; in other words, all people are redeemed by the god that free-willians preach, yet that gal goes to Hell who rejected Jesus; therefore, the god of free-willians failed to save the gal for whom the son of the god of the free-willians died to save.

The blood at the cross also established a spot in Heaven for the third individual who never heard the Gospel, but that spot will remain vacant for all eternity - the god of the free-willians was unable to keep the spot occupied.

The god of free-willian philosophy is weak, incapable, ineffectual, a liar, and not YHWH God.

The free-willian god is non-omniscient, non-omnipresent, and non-omnipotent.

That is no god at all which the free-willians create in their imagination, just a tradition of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), God saves every single individual for whom Jesus died on the cross to redeem from the wrath of God; in other words, God does not miss saving a single one of God's chosen persons for whom Jesus made atonement on the cross.

Lord Jesus says "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10:27-30).

We Christians hear the Master say "it is finished" (John 19:30), and in that moment we receive the love of God (John 3:16) bestowing undeserved forgiveness upon us wretched God-hating monsters (Ephesians 2:1-4) - that the Son sacrificed Himself to reconcile the world to Himself (2 Corinthians 5:19) for the glory of God (John 17:4-5).

We believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent, and we believe Lord Jesus' sayings that belief is the blessed work of God in us (John 6:29) - it is more than an awakening - it is an enlivening - it is being born again (John 3:3-8) - it is getting the new heart that God wondrously implants in us (Ezekiel 36:26).

We Christians know that God's merciful salvation hinges on Christ alone for the glory of God alone, and there is nothing we can do nor say - not even a human choice approving of Jesus in order to obtain saving grace - nothing we say or do earns the unearnable love of God. We believe that Being saved from the wrath of God is exclusively God choosing us, not us choosing God (John 15:16, John 15:19).

For Christians, it is "believing"; in contrast, for the guy saying "I chose to believe in Jesus", it is "choosing".

For us Christians, it all hinges on Christ alone, yet for the free-willians saying "I chose to believe in Jesus", it all hinges on the a free-willian's choice.

The free will philosophy is proven to be deception because "Behold, His servants, He does not trust" (Job 4:18), so God does not trust a person who chooses Jesus; therefore, a free-willian who says "I chose Jesus" is bound for hell.

Behold, the psalmist says he is entirely dependent upon the Almighty!

I will extol You, O YHWH, for You have lifted me up,
And have not let my enemies rejoice over me.
O YHWH my God,
I cried to You for help, and You healed me.
O YHWH, You have brought up my soul from Sheol;
You have kept me alive, that I would not go down to the pit.
(Psalm 30:1-3)

Continued to post 1,592

 

[Kermos]

Continued from post #1,591

Jesus did not come into the world from the womb, any differently than all men since Adam. Other than the womb of Mary was virgin.

The good Creator does not create evil creatures, whether angels or men.

YOU LITERALLY JUST WICKEDLY ERASED THE HOLY SCRIPTURE IN ORDER TO USE YOUR HEART'S THOUGHTS TO REPLACE THE HOLY WRIT, BUT HERE IT IS AGAIN SINCE YOU BROUGHT UP JAMES 1:13.

In the following, it is imperative to remember that Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God. This means Jesus is good because He says "No one is good except God alone" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 10:18), so Christ alone is the exception to when I write all people and such.

Man starts initially as evil, self-willed for the Apostle gives no exception for a person starting otherwise in life with "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10)

Here are the relevant spiritual points about James 1:13 that are together a cohesive unit proving the deception of your way:

• free-will is not contained therein, so James 1:13 is not a proof text for free-will.
• self-will is not mentioned therein. James 1:13 does not indicate "God does not given any man self-will".
• the audience for James' letter is people who are in Christ; in other words, people that are saved (James 1:1-2, James 2:1). The audience constrains the meaning of "anyone" in James 1:13 to exclusively the people of the faith, so James is not addressing the faithless in James 1:13.
• it is written "YHWH tests the righteous and the wicked, And the one who loves violence His soul hates" (Psalm 11:5), so God does not tempt people, but God does test people.
• it is written "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5), so all, and I mean every person except Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21), all people start off as evil, fleshly, self-willed persons for there is no exception indicated anywhere in Scripture.
• it is written "The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth" (Psalm 58:3), so all, and I mean every person except Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21), all people start off as evil, fleshly, self-willed persons for there is no exception indicated anywhere in Scripture.
• it is written "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9), so man is evil and self-willed in his deceitful heart from birth without exception - man is created in the flesh, evil, and self-willed.
• the Apostle Paul wrote
  
  
  you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved
  (Ephesians 2:1-5)
  ​
  So, everyone in the Assembly of God formerly were self-willed people; therefore, everyone starts out in life with a self-will because all of the unsaved people are self-willed.
• thus says Adonai YHWH (Lord GOD) "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself" (Ezekiel 18:20), so every self-willed person goes to hell for practicing lawlessness because of the person's own doing of sin (crimes against God) - their sin is accounted to them yet no self-willed person can escape being self-willed of their own initiative for the Word of God says "And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?" (Luke 12:57).

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

The admonition is not to boast of doing and being good, which no man can do nor be without God. Including Jesus.

Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

We are what we do, and though the evil may boast of doing evil, the good do not boast of doing good.

The evil bow before the good; and the wicked at the gates of the righteous.

Those that do good, are the good, even as those that do righteousness, are the righteous.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

No man can be righteous as God, and not be good as God, as well as being pure as God.

And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

The saints of God just don't boast about it, since God gets the glory, even as Jesus gave glory to the Father.

A person doing good is a fruit of the Spirit, not a fruit of man's will, but truly Word of God says "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21) and the Apostle Paul wrote "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness" (Galatians 5:22). So, when you wrote about yourself "The saints of God just don't boast about it, since God gets the glory, even as Jesus gave glory to the Father." then you lied because you boast that you are good and that you can do your purported good of choosing Jesus.

Your heart adulterates the Word of God into "No one is good except man and God alone" (the word of Gilligan), yet the True Word of God says "No one is good except God alone " (Mark 10:18), so your foundation is sand not the Rock as the Word says "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall" (Matthew 7:26-27).

God is not the Creator of devils, nor the children of the devil.

Lucifer first sinned against his own good creation by God, and so must man, beginning with Adam.

Your bad news gospel for all men at birth, is false.

With your closing paragraph, you evilly adulterate "The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth" (Psalm 58:3) into your heart's treasure (Matthew 15:16-19) of "The wicked are not estranged from the womb; these who speak lies do not go astray from birth " (the word of Gilligan) which is the traditions of man that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9), so you reveal your self-willed reviling of King Jesus by claiming you can do the opposite of the King's decree of:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15 , the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Kermos]

@Titus @Ernest T. Bass @Gilligan

All of you are of the same spirit, coming out of the woodwork nearly in unison, spreading your deceptions. Notice the similarity of your thoughts.

Your heart, Titus says that David said "I was brought into a world of iniquity" which is NOT what David wrote, truly David wrote "I was brought forth in iniquity" (Psalm 51:5), and this post shows the Hebrew grammar of Psalm 51:5 that shows the Spiritual Truth (John 14:6) that man is evil from birth and in need of the Savior.

Way back here in January 2023, it is recorded that you, Ernest T. Bass, wrote "The Bible does say men are sinful, wicked but no verse says man is born sinful, wicked" (the word of Ernest T. Bass), but then from January into March 2023 you were shown "The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth" (Psalm 58:3) which reveals the spiritual truth that is opposite of your hearts treasure (Matthew 15:16-19) contriving that man is inherently good with your adulterated scripture of your unscriptural thoughts of "The wicked are NOT estranged from the womb; these who speak lies DO NOT go astray from birth" (the word of Ernest T. Bass), which is in accord with the doctrine of demons (1 Timothy 4:1) you persist in saying that Psalm 58:3 does not say what Psalm 58:3 does say.

With your closing paragraph, Gilligan, you evilly adulterate "The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth" (Psalm 58:3) into your heart's treasure (Matthew 15:16-19) of "The wicked are not estranged from the womb; these who speak lies do not go astray from birth" (the word of Gilligan) which is the traditions of man that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9), so you reveal your self-willed reviling of King Jesus by claiming you can do the opposite of the King's decree of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) along with "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Notice further, each of you stopped conversing at those referenced posts. Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may become accountable to God (Romans 3:19).

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Titus]

Anyone who teaches mankind is born totally wicked depraved sinners is spreading false teaching from false teachers like John Calvin.

. Notice the similarity of your thoughts.

Your heart, Titus says that David said "I was brought into a world of iniquity" which is NOT what David wrote, truly David wrote "I was brought forth in iniquity" (Psalm 51:5), and this post shows the Hebrew grammar of

Psalm 51:5 NKJV,
-Behold I was brought forth in inquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.

Who's sin? The babies sin or David's mothers sin?
Calvinism misinterpretation directs the mind to think this is the babies sin, David.

This is impossible, therefore a perversion of this passage.

The only way one can sin is to understand right from wrong.
Babies have no understanding of morality or Gods law.
Therefore babies are born innocent.

"Behold I was brought forth in iniquity"
All David is saying here is that he was born into a sinful world. As the sins of his mother brought forth in sin.
David is not saying he is brought forth or born as inquity.
Born a sinner.

Babies have no knowledge of good or evil,
Deuteronomy 1:39,
- Moreover your little ones and your children who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.

Only those who can understand right from wrong are sinful, when they choose to transgress Gods law.

Romans 7:7,
- What shall we say then, is the law sin? Certainly not, on the contrary, I would not have known sin except through law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law said, You shall not covet.
Do babies and young children know the law of God?
Paul explains if God did not have a law, Paul would not no what sin is.

Therefore God does not hold babies accountable to His law because babies are without understanding, Deuteronomy 1:39.

If men like Kermos are correct in their doctrine of wicked depraved sinful babies.
Then the consequence of this doctrine logically leads to babies burning in hell.
Calvin taught babies will burn in hell.
All those aborted babies are being sent to hell by God according to this wicked doctrine.

This doctrine is also held by the Catholics.
This is why the catholic church began to water baptize babies, to save them from their sins.
Nonsense.
Babies are sinless according to Jesus!
Matthew 18:3,
- and Jesus said,
Assuredly, I say to you unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Notice Jesus compared those who are converted(forgiven of their sins) to innocent children.
We adults must be as innocent as children if we are to be in heaven with Jesus.

Jesus proves children are without sin.
No child that dies without understanding of right and wrong will be lost!

Cont.

 

[Gilligan]

The Christ of us Christians clearly states man is incapable of free-will choosing Jesus, and here is the Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation), and all the blessings of God mentioned in this paragraph are to all believers in all time because Christ says "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37) to the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John whom Christ had taken aside in private and said this.

You are incapable of refuting or challenging Christ's words for the Christ defines us Christians. Unbelievers do not believe the Word of God who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), yet we Christian's believe the Christ, and we Christians are Godly. Therefore, you cannot refute nor challenge the Christ's words in Truth (John 14:6) without your self-will proving that you are an unbeliever.

The balance of your post is leavened by your lie that people are capable of choosing Jesus - as shown above.

The original post contains the Truth which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

Still no response to the original challenge.

 

[Titus]

unscriptural thoughts of "The wicked are NOT estranged from the womb; these who speak lies DO NOT go astray from birth" (the word of Ernest T. Bass), which is in accord with the doctrine of demons (1 Timothy 4:1) you persist in saying that Psalm 58:3 does not say what Psalm 58:3 does say.

Do you not know this verse is figurative language?
Do you really think these are literal children being spoken of?
Do you know of any babies born with teeth?
Do you know any new born babies born that can speak a language?
Do you know any new born babies that can speak a language and understand the concept of lying?

Psalm 58:3,
- the wicked are estraged from the womb, they go astray as soon as they are born speaking lies,
Thier poison is like the poison of a serpent; they are like deaf cobra that stops the ear.
Which will not heed the voice of charmers,...
Verse 6,
- break their teeth in the mouth O, God, Break out the fangs of THE YOUNG LIONS, O Lord.

I encourage all to read the whole figurative symbolism of Psalm 58.

I know no children or babies that are Lions!
I know no children that are born with teeth.
I know no new born babes that speak a language let alone come out of the womb SPEAKING LIES!!!!

This is not literal. If you think it is, God help you.

 

[Titus]

Strong evidence the Bible gives for free will/ free moral agency.

Revelation 22:17,
- And the Spirit and the bride say come, and let him who hears say Come. And let him who thrists come! WHOEVER DESIRES let him take the water of life FREELY.

Joshua 22:16,
- Thus the whole congregation of the Lord: what treachery is this that you have committed against the God of Israel, to turn away this day from following the Lord, in that you have built for yourselves an altar that you might  rebel this day against the Lord.

Deuteronomy 30:19,
- I call heaven and earth as witness today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore  choose life, that both you and your descendants may live.

 

[Gilligan]

THEN a free will Adam could not have been roaming the Garden of Eden with the ability to choose to obey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17)

He did for a while. If he was made by God to sin, then God was powerless in His will to create man to sin. Because he did not sin for a while.

SO God could not conclude with certainty by declaring everything was good on the sixth day with a free will Adam in control roaming the Garden of Eden

God concluded all was good, because it was. Your speaking of Adam being 'in control of roaming', is your own doctrine of being made to sin seeping in.

All was good so long as Adam was doing the will of God, which he did for a season.

THEREFORE it follows that Adam could not be endowed with the attribute of free will

Then he was disobeying God from the outset by obeying Him, when God is supposed to have created him to disobey.

SO Adam fulfilled God's prophesy.

God fulfilled His prophecy of what would happen to Adam if he sinned. God cut him off from His Spirit of life, so that Adam for the first time hid from the Lord.

"He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous" (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 5:45).

True. What men do with the lightening of Christ is their choice. He lightens all men coming into the world, but not all men choose to see and walk in it.

by doing the work of choosing Jesus,

True. Choosing to serve God is a work. Try doing so without resisting the devil.

yet free-willians

Cute. There are free-willians, and no-free-willians. I choose the former.

simultaneously think another person goes to hell in the absence of doing the work of choosing Jesus.

Exactly. Now you have it.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

THEREFORE, a guy that chose Jesus saves the guy himself, yet a gal that did not choose Jesus condemns the gal herself.

Exactly again.

And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

SO, the guy saved himself because without his choosing of Jesus, then he'd be just like that gal.

True. God doesn't predetermine who, but only judges what who do.

POINTEDLY, the guy's salvation hinges solely on the guy's choosing Jesus because, in contrast to being saved, the guy would be hell-bound

Only because all men have sinned, and so all men need a Saviour from our sinning.

The "hinge" of the door mentioned above is based on free will philosophy.

True. I suppose you could say the door of our soul we choose to open to Jesus has hinges. By choosing to let Him in, we get some holy oil for our hinges. ;)

Consider a third individual, who never heard the Gospel of Christ, such a person is not going to be with Christ in His Kingdom - even under free-willian philosophy.

The old, "what about them never heard?" Ever met one?

Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth.

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.

The love and mercy of God ensures all men do hear. Your no-free-willianism is descending into vain philosophy now.

In this sample population, the majority do not enter Heaven, yet the entire population of people are created by God.

True. For the good and not the evil. And yet all men have sinned against Him. Your Cavin foolishly tried to explain why.

 

[Gilligan]

Free-willians preach that their god atones for the sins of every man everywhere in all time after the cross

That's a fanatical kind of OSAS you're speaking of. God preaches that He would have all men everywhere to be saved, but not all choose to do so by His only begotten Son.

Your peach a false god with respect of persons, that goodly creates some souls to choose the good, and wickedly creates some souls to choose the evil.

You preach a kind of Christian Janus, that does things both ways. He creates some men some way, and other men another way.

The god of free-willian philosophy is weak, incapable, ineffectual, a liar, and not YHWH God.

You're the one now full of Roman philosophy. You left scripture long ago.

The free-willian god is non-omniscient, non-omnipresent, and non-omnipotent.

The true God is non partial in creating some men to believe, and other not to believe.

In Truth (John 14:6), God saves every single individual for whom Jesus died on the cross to redeem from the wrath of God; in other words, God does not miss saving a single one of God's chosen persons for whom Jesus made atonement on the cross.

True. He chooses them that do believe on Him and obey His word. He does not choose them that choose otherwise. Fair is faith with God.

We Christians hear the Master say "it is finished" (John 19:30), and in that moment we receive the love of God (John 3:16) bestowing undeserved forgiveness upon us wretched God-hating monsters (Ephesians 2:1-4) - that the Son sacrificed Himself to reconcile the world to Himself (2 Corinthians 5:19) for the glory of God (John 17:4-5).

Sounds like OSAS. They just love to degrade themselves to show how unworthy they are to be saved. The problem is they are unworthy to be saved, because they continue degrading themselves by sinning again Jesus.

Paul calls it a willful humility without honor.

We believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent, and we believe Lord Jesus' sayings that belief is the blessed work of God in us (John 6:29) - it is more than an awakening - it is an enlivening - it is being born again (John 3:3-8) - it is getting the new heart that God wondrously implants in us (Ezekiel 36:26).

True.

We Christians know that God's merciful salvation hinges on Christ alone for the glory of God alone,

So, you are OSAS saved by dead faith alone.

and there is nothing we can do nor say -

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

As I said. the willful self-degrading humility of the degraded, supposing humbleness is confessing they are still degraded sinners.

not even a human choice approving of Jesus in order to obtain saving grace

Saving grace is only for them that choose to resist the devil and serve Jesus. It's for help in time of need to overcome sin, nor for help in time of need to overcome condemnation while sinning.

- nothing we say or do earns the unearnable love of God.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

We believe that Being saved from the wrath of God is exclusively God choosing us,

Oh you are OSAS all the way. Saved from wrath while still sinning. Not saved from sinning.

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Your predeterminism says that because you have dead faith alone, you're no longer condemned with world, while still sinning with the world.

It's the most vile form of hypocrisy ever created by Jews and Christians alike.

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

not us choosing God (John 15:16, John 15:19).

For Christians, it is "believing"; in contrast, for the guy saying "I chose to believe in Jesus", it is "choosing".

For saints it is choosing to serve God by faith, rather than saying I believe alone with the lips only.

For us Christians, it all hinges on Christ alone, yet for the free-willians saying "I chose to believe in Jesus", it all hinges on the a free-willian's choice.

True. Your choice to believe you are chosen to be saved before the world began, means you have no choice in the matter, whether doing good or veil. It's your choice to believe yourself rather than God.

The free will philosophy is proven to be deception because "Behold, His servants, He does not trust" (Job 4:18), so God does not trust a person who chooses Jesus; therefore, a free-willian who says "I chose Jesus" is bound for hell.

God does not trust anyone promising to serve Him. He only chooses them that are serving Him.

 

[Gilligan]

Continued from post #1,591



YOU LITERALLY JUST WICKEDLY ERASED THE HOLY SCRIPTURE IN ORDER TO USE YOUR HEART'S THOUGHTS TO REPLACE THE HOLY WRIT,

WHATEVER, ALL CAPS DOES NOT IMPRESS ME, BUT ONLY SHOWS ME SOMEONE IS ALL MOUTH AND NO SUBSTANCE, TRYING TO TALK OVER PEOPLE BY ALL CAPS. :)

Man starts initially as evil,

God is not the creator of children of the devil.

self-willed for the Apostle gives no exception for a person starting otherwise in life with "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10)

Here are the relevant spiritual points about James 1:13 that are together a cohesive unit proving the deception of your way:

• free-will is not contained therein, so James 1:13 is not a proof text for free-will.
• self-will is not mentioned therein. James 1:13 does not indicate "God does not given any man self-will".
• the audience for James' letter is people who are in Christ; in other words, people that are saved (James 1:1-2, James 2:1). The audience constrains the meaning of "anyone" in James 1:13 to exclusively the people of the faith, so James is not addressing the faithless in James 1:13.
• it is written "YHWH tests the righteous and the wicked, And the one who loves violence His soul hates" (Psalm 11:5), so God does not tempt people, but God does test people.
• it is written "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5), so all, and I mean every person except Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21), all people start off as evil, fleshly, self-willed persons for there is no exception indicated anywhere in Scripture.
• it is written "The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth" (Psalm 58:3), so all, and I mean every person except Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21), all people start off as evil, fleshly, self-willed persons for there is no exception indicated anywhere in Scripture.
• it is written "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9), so man is evil and self-willed in his deceitful heart from birth without exception - man is created in the flesh, evil, and self-willed.
• the Apostle Paul wrote
  
  
  you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved
  (Ephesians 2:1-5)​
  So, everyone in the Assembly of God formerly were self-willed people; therefore, everyone starts out in life with a self-will because all of the unsaved people are self-willed.
• thus says Adonai YHWH (Lord GOD) "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself" (Ezekiel 18:20), so every self-willed person goes to hell for practicing lawlessness because of the person's own doing of sin (crimes against God) - their sin is accounted to them yet no self-willed person can escape being self-willed of their own initiative for the Word of God says "And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?" (Luke 12:57).

A person doing good is a fruit of the Spirit, not a fruit of man's will, but truly Word of God says "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21) and the Apostle Paul wrote "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness" (Galatians 5:22). So, when you wrote about yourself "The saints of God just don't boast about it, since God gets the glory, even as Jesus gave glory to the Father." then you lied because you boast that you are good and that you can do your purported good of choosing Jesus.

Your heart adulterates the Word of God into "No one is good except man and God alone" (the word of Gilligan), yet the True Word of God says "No one is good except God alone " (Mark 10:18), so your foundation is sand not the Rock as the Word says "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall" (Matthew 7:26-27).



With your closing paragraph, you evilly adulterate "The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth" (Psalm 58:3) into your heart's treasure (Matthew 15:16-19) of "The wicked are not estranged from the womb; these who speak lies do not go astray from birth " (the word of Gilligan) which is the traditions of man that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9), so you reveal your self-willed reviling of King Jesus by claiming you can do the opposite of the King's decree of:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15 , the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

Old stuff already answered.